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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2023 :  18:35:29  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

You know, I know you're writing this for 2e, but this Kavor guy would make a great primordial. Having the gravs be psionic individuals using telekinetic powers rather than wizardry would also seem to work well with them. Their elites might actually be classed as psion type and/or artificer type classes rather than wizards. Having them use psionic power to make their weapons heavier on impact, pr making something akin to oil of impact, etc...



Nothing wrong with adapting it to other edition's paradigms. :) I don't really see them as psionic or telekinetic, but that's no reason they couldn't be. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2023 :  07:23:07  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Imix, the Prince of Evil Fire: https://bit.ly/40LRvLm

The ruthless Prince of Evil Fire Creatures is Imix, a warlord who strives to dominate all with his fiery destruction. He plans and strategizes in steps, completing one before moving to the next. it is widely held that should he succeed in his current war against Olhydra, no other archomental would be able to match his power.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11769 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2023 :  23:34:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Imix, the Prince of Evil Fire: https://bit.ly/40LRvLm

The ruthless Prince of Evil Fire Creatures is Imix, a warlord who strives to dominate all with his fiery destruction. He plans and strategizes in steps, completing one before moving to the next. it is widely held that should he succeed in his current war against Olhydra, no other archomental would be able to match his power.

Jeff



You know... until this article I had never really thought much about him and how he might be used. As with many of the things you write, the reading of it spawns ideas in my head. What just popped into my own head is the fact that Realmspace's sun is ACTUALLY a planet that has been set afire and has NUMEROUS portals to the elemental plane of fire on it. What if this is a battleground where Imix has forces that work against OTHER forces of fire? By that, I mean the forces of not only Zaaman Rul, but possibly even the forces of Surtr (who is a god of realmspace), Garyx (also a god of realmspace I still believe), or even primordials like Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer and his slaad followers. Maybe there's something ON this planet that they might all want to control, and that's WHY there's so many portals for fire to this place. Maybe there's also portals to radiance on the sun and there's fights between the powers of fire and radiance. Not sure where to exactly take this, but figured this might be a good way to explain why the people on the sun aren't rampaging elsewhere.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2023 :  04:50:49  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

You know... until this article I had never really thought much about him and how he might be used. As with many of the things you write, the reading of it spawns ideas in my head. What just popped into my own head is the fact that Realmspace's sun is ACTUALLY a planet that has been set afire and has NUMEROUS portals to the elemental plane of fire on it. What if this is a battleground where Imix has forces that work against OTHER forces of fire? By that, I mean the forces of not only Zaaman Rul, but possibly even the forces of Surtr (who is a god of realmspace), Garyx (also a god of realmspace I still believe), or even primordials like Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer and his slaad followers. Maybe there's something ON this planet that they might all want to control, and that's WHY there's so many portals for fire to this place. Maybe there's also portals to radiance on the sun and there's fights between the powers of fire and radiance. Not sure where to exactly take this, but figured this might be a good way to explain why the people on the sun aren't rampaging elsewhere.



Good stuff! Fire bodies should have just as much variety of life and civilizations as earth worlds, so it's always worth thinking about what things are going on on them. :)

It's a shame most fiery creatures that get put on them are from the Elemental Plane of Fire; there should be more native Prime Material creatures.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2023 :  05:58:45  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Orcus, the Demon Prince of Undeath: https://bit.ly/42n1tU5

One of the most infamous of Abyssal lords, and star villain of a pair of Planescape modules, Orcus is the Demon Prince of Undeath. Once arguably the most powerful of the tanar'ri, he was slain by Kiaransalee, but perhaps unsurprisingly, he managed to return as the undead Tenebrous. With this loss of status and following, he is now attempting to rebuild his strength in a more surreptitious fashion.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2023 :  06:45:51  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Klikral, the Master of the Mound: https://bit.ly/443SxVF

The enigmatic insectare are a race of insect creatures with an elf-like appearance, first appearing in the second Spelljammer Monstrous Compendium appendix (MC09). Little is known about them other than their reclusive nature and desire to rule the spacelanes by undermining the Imperial Navy and other organizations; neither is there much known about their deity, Klikral. I chose to explore what their connection to the elven peoples are in this writeup of that little-detailed instectoid god.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11769 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2023 :  15:54:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, the story of the insectare could fit well if the original "insectares" were Abeil. They are from 3.5 and have a slightly elven look.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abeil

I had never heard of this race before your article on their god. I like your idea of the elves performing some kind of high magic that changes the race. I have a couple other proposals for you that might be the truth OR they might be heresies....

What if what the elves did was magically modify an Abeil queen to have a womb instead of laying eggs, and thus making her able to mate with her elf lover. This may have made the other Abeil queens think of her and her children as abominations.

Its obvious that with the green skin on these insectares they they were hinting at the insect side being something like grasshoppers or praying mantises (so possibly hidden links to thri-kreen or similar races). But what if the green comes from something else? What if the "elven" looks could be better described as "fey"... and what if the insectare race comes from a breeding of the flower loving abeil and a plant based fey race "like" dryads... that bind to giant flowers instead of trees? That might even explain the priests never leaving their homeworld, perhaps all insectare "queens" are flowerbound. If this were true, it might add to the idea that elves get so mad for being accused of creating them. This could even add into things like their unusually long antennae as being "vine-like".

If this second option were true... it might be something where the god, Klikral, has two forms... the male being like an insect like male, and the female like a green skinned flower fey. I picture this possibly being something where an evil fey plant goddess turned some abeil from serving their queen, and getting these abeil to mate with her fey servants. Being an evil fey she might not like elves.

You know... I think I actually like this second option. Even if its not the "insectare" it could make a really interesting race that links the idea of beefolk and fey flowerfolk mating. The male and females sides of their races may be significantly different with the females being more dryad-like (and thus their eye differences as well). Creating new females may require some sacrifice of magic to bond a newborn to a giant form of flower, which might explain why the males are out thieving magic where they can find it to bring it home.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Jul 2023 16:13:35
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2023 :  19:13:22  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, the story of the insectare could fit well if the original "insectares" were Abeil. They are from 3.5 and have a slightly elven look.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abeil

I had never heard of this race before your article on their god. I like your idea of the elves performing some kind of high magic that changes the race. I have a couple other proposals for you that might be the truth OR they might be heresies....


Yeah, they only show up in a couple places in Spelljammer. They essentially exist as a potential "working from the shadows" villain.

I'm not familiar with the Abeil.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

What if what the elves did was magically modify an Abeil queen to have a womb instead of laying eggs, and thus making her able to mate with her elf lover. This may have made the other Abeil queens think of her and her children as abominations.


If the offspring were the insectare, I don't think they would hate the elves, unless the magic was intended to affect one individual and changed the whole race.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Its obvious that with the green skin on these insectares they they were hinting at the insect side being something like grasshoppers or praying mantises (so possibly hidden links to thri-kreen or similar races). But what if the green comes from something else? What if the "elven" looks could be better described as "fey"... and what if the insectare race comes from a breeding of the flower loving abeil and a plant based fey race "like" dryads... that bind to giant flowers instead of trees? That might even explain the priests never leaving their homeworld, perhaps all insectare "queens" are flowerbound. If this were true, it might add to the idea that elves get so mad for being accused of creating them. This could even add into things like their unusually long antennae as being "vine-like".


So the Monstrous Compendium writeup for the Insectare is pretty interesting. For one thing, it lists their organization as "Clan" rather than "Hive," and mentions they live in hollowed out "mountains" that are "probably a remnant of their insect heritage." Termites build those types of mounds, and they're closely related to grasshoppers (only cockroaches and mantises are more closely related), so I figured their original form was a combination of the two, considering their ship designs and how they live. Add in that they are supposed to be unseen as they work to undermine organizations, it fits a termite theme, I think. :)

I specifically tied them in to the creation of bionoids and spirit warriors because they're so closely tied to the elves, and it would fit as something they'd push hard to get completed during the First Unhuman War.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

If this second option were true... it might be something where the god, Klikral, has two forms... the male being like an insect like male, and the female like a green skinned flower fey. I picture this possibly being something where an evil fey plant goddess turned some abeil from serving their queen, and getting these abeil to mate with her fey servants. Being an evil fey she might not like elves.

You know... I think I actually like this second option. Even if its not the "insectare" it could make a really interesting race that links the idea of beefolk and fey flowerfolk mating. The male and females sides of their races may be significantly different with the females being more dryad-like (and thus their eye differences as well). Creating new females may require some sacrifice of magic to bond a newborn to a giant form of flower, which might explain why the males are out thieving magic where they can find it to bring it home.



Glad to see the creative juices flowing! :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2023 :  00:19:13  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chan, the Princess of Good Air: https://bit.ly/44NypqR

The first of the archomentals of good is Chan, the Princess of Good Air Creatures. She wages an endless information cold war with her rival Yan-C-Bin while wondering the Elemental Plane of Air and the Prime Material Plane engaging in subtle acts of goodness that lead to much larger long-term effects.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2023 :  06:23:16  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Piscaethces the Blood Queen: https://bit.ly/3Z0XY5U

The creator of the aboleths, known as Piscaethces the Blood Queen, lives deep in a hidden bog-cavern in Minauros. She is a lethargic power despite her desire to guide her followers to domination of all other creatures. She is, however, known to send her occasional offspring to Prime Material Plane, where they often become among the most powerful of savants.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2023 :  17:26:43  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another great entry on Piscaethces!
I see though you ignored, at least largelly her Lords of Madness lore, ie no mention of her connection to the Far Realm.

I found another obscure entity from 2nd edition lore, though I'm not sure if worshipped, is Lilith the "Greatest of Succubi", introdued in a very late 2E bit of lore in Dragon #266:
quote:
Lilith is the most powerful
succubus and all other
succubi pay homage to her.
Lilith is a foul temptress who seduces
men of great power to destroy and
enslave them. Lilith's usual form is a
woman of unparalleled beauty, but in
whatever form she takes, her legs are
covered with coarse hair. Unfortunately,
Lilith is a mistress of deceit, and victims
rarely see this sign until it is too late.

DMs who wish to introduce this fiend
into a high-level campaign should pre¬
pare a formidable foe, surely of no less
power than an Abyssal Lord.



This was in a series of lore snipets in the article "50 Monster Maximizers" by Brian Corvello.

These Lilith's relation, if any to the Archdevil Consort Lilith (who curiously, is completelly absent in 2E), is unknown, though might be in part, along with reall-life mythology and folkore (the latter more probable) what made the decison to tie the Devil Lilith as the source of succubi in 4E lore (kinda, being the first angel of love, on which all other were based, with angels of love eventually becoming the first succubi; and the queen of Baatorian succubi), and in Green Ronin's "Book of the Rightous". Unless Lilith would be a Tanar'ri infilitrator to Baator like Astaroth.

I would guess Lilith is either a rival to Shami-Amourae, or another alias of her's. A bit regretable I didn't find it earlier, but oh well.

Edited by - Baltas on 17 Sep 2023 17:37:15
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2023 :  17:50:00  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Another great entry on Piscaethces!
I see though you ignored, at least largelly her Lords of Madness lore, ie no mention of her connection to the Far Realm.


Yeah, the Far Realm was barely a thing in 2e, and there weren't any deities from there in that edition. Car Sargent clearly established her as a resident of Baator. Honestly, I see aboleths as weird and frightening but also still entirely within the normal range of Prime Material creatures.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I found another obscure entity from 2nd edition lore, though I'm not sure if worshipped, is Lilith the "Greatest of Succubi", introdued in a very late 2E bit of lore in Dragon #266:
quote:
Lilith is the most powerful
succubus and all other
succubi pay homage to her.
Lilith is a foul temptress who seduces
men of great power to destroy and
enslave them. Lilith's usual form is a
woman of unparalleled beauty, but in
whatever form she takes, her legs are
covered with coarse hair. Unfortunately,
Lilith is a mistress of deceit, and victims
rarely see this sign until it is too late.

DMs who wish to introduce this fiend
into a high-level campaign should pre¬
pare a formidable foe, surely of no less
power than an Abyssal Lord.



This was in a series of lore snipets in the article "50 Monster Maximizers" by Brian Corvello.

These Lilith's relation, if any to the Archdevil Consort Lilith (who curiously, is completelly absent in 2E), is unknown, though might be in part, along with reall-life mythology and folkore (the latter more probable) what made the decison to tie the Devil Lilith as the source of succubi in 4E lore (kinda, being the first angel of love, on which all other were based, with angels of love eventually becoming the first succubi; and the queen of Baatorian succubi), and in Green Ronin's "Book of the Rightous". Unless Lilith would be a Tanar'ri infilitrator to Baator like Astaroth.

I would guess Lilith is either a rival to Shami-Amourae, or another alias of her's. A bit regretable I didn't find it earlier, but oh well.



Eh, I mean, you've got Lilith and Lilis (same actual name) as two different entities in 1e, and then this article (which makes no mention of Damh in the bit about Satyrs) proposes her as a succubus, and then I'll have to handle dealing with the existing uses whenever I get to Mesopotamian mythology, I'm inclined to ignore this material. If anything, Shami-Amourae is just known as Lilith in some places or something, if someone *really* wants to incorporate the material. "Lilith" as a name is just WAY too overused in D&D. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2023 :  18:26:26  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Yeah, the Far Realm was barely a thing in 2e, and there weren't any deities from there in that edition. Car Sargent clearly established her as a resident of Baator. Honestly, I see aboleths as weird and frightening but also still entirely within the normal range of Prime Material creatures.




I thought so, and indeed Aboleths do still seem not that "unnatural" as Far Realm entities. Still, this could be due to them and the Blood Queen becoming "naturalized" to the planes, but it could make more sense if Piscaethces herself was already a spawn of a Far Realm entity born when the entity visited the normal planes (and born already "tainted" by the multiverse). Or that's my take/idea, and I get why you don't want to use the connection to the Far Realm.

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Eh, I mean, you've got Lilith and Lilis (same actual name) as two different entities in 1e, and then this article (which makes no mention of Damh in the bit about Satyrs) proposes her as a succubus, and then I'll have to handle dealing with the existing uses whenever I get to Mesopotamian mythology, I'm inclined to ignore this material. If anything, Shami-Amourae is just known as Lilith in some places or something, if someone *really* wants to incorporate the material. "Lilith" as a name is just WAY too overused in D&D. :)

Jeff



Yeah, even Lolth seems partially named after Lilith. With this Lilith being just an alias of Shami-Amourae, also makes sense, especially seeing Shami's lore does have some visible similarities to Lilith's story were she started out as mortal (ie a mortal woman from extremelly primeval times that became (one of) the first succubi and queen of them).

[EDIT]
In retrospect, it does seem Shami-Amourae's description (golden haired and white/porcelain skinned), might be inspired by two 19th century paintings of Lilith - "Lady Lilith" by Dante Gabriel Rossetti and "Lilith" by John Collier.

Edited by - Baltas on 18 Sep 2023 23:31:06
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2405 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2023 :  08:50:45  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon


Yeah, the Far Realm was barely a thing in 2e, and there weren't any deities from there in that edition. Car Sargent clearly established her as a resident of Baator. Honestly, I see aboleths as weird and frightening but also still entirely within the normal range of Prime Material creatures.

It was not a thing at all. It appeared as a throwaway plot element in 1 (one) module: The Gates of Firestorm Peak (since the eponymous gates had to lead somewhere "no way no how").
Unfortunately, this appears to have hit one of their editors right in the fetish, seeing how Bruce Cordell could not submit anything without a bunch of hurr durr random tentacles ever after. Which is a shame, as he used to write cool stuff (Illithiad, etc), in large part due to being one of the very few RPG designers who learned biology not from Disney. [ /rant]

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas


Yeah, even Lolth seems partially named after Lilith. With this Lilith being just an alias of Shami-Amourae, also makes sense, especially seeing Shami's lore does have some visible similarities to Lilith's story were she started out as mortal (ie a mortal woman from extremelly primeval times that became (one of) the first succubi and queen of them).

...and Legolas! Also starts with "L". Lol.
quote:

In retrospect, it does seem Shami-Amourae's description (golden haired and white/porcelain skinned), might be inspired by two 19th century paintings of Lilith

And here you pointed right at the source of this problem (and many others): such doplegangers are simply dragged from different existing adaptations by several designers.
Kitchen sinks are the root of many evils.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2023 :  13:18:34  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder


quote:
Originally posted by Baltas


Yeah, even Lolth seems partially named after Lilith. With this Lilith being just an alias of Shami-Amourae, also makes sense, especially seeing Shami's lore does have some visible similarities to Lilith's story were she started out as mortal (ie a mortal woman from extremelly primeval times that became (one of) the first succubi and queen of them).

...and Legolas! Also starts with "L". Lol.




Well, the similairity between the names Lolth and Lilith, is greater than that, something I'm not the first to notice. Both share the same consonant letters (and even consonants) in English (L,L,T,H), and in Hebrew, Lilith was most probably originally pronouced Liloth ot Lilyot - much more similar to Lolth (this was known already when Gary Gygax was creating Lolth).

They are also similarities between the two, since 1st edition AD&D, if the similarities got greater in latter editions.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
And here you pointed right at the source of this problem (and many others): such doplegangers are simply dragged from different existing adaptations by several designers.
Kitchen sinks are the root of many evils.



Personally, I think it's both a flaw and merit, for example for the fact that it show how big/expansive the "mega-setting" of D&D is. But YMMV.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1508 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2023 :  14:27:54  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always used Lynkhab over Malcanthet, Shami or any other succubus, really, as Queen of the Succubi. I enjoyed the irony of the demon queen of desire being unable to obtain her own desires, over Ultra-succubus-just-add-hair-dye #1 and #2.
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2405 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2023 :  21:32:30  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas


quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Kitchen sinks are the root of many evils.


Personally, I think it's both a flaw and merit, for example for the fact that it show how big/expansive the "mega-setting" of D&D is. But YMMV.

It does not "show how big" it is any more than a stencilling a crude picture with "perspective" on a wall shows how big a building is. And at the quality level of most kitchen sinks, they would probably cause fits of claustrophobia.

Kitchen sinks are created out of laziness, and in turn breed silly mess.
This silly mess degrades the expected levels of content quality.
Lowering quality standards rot everything. The editors will rubber-stamp anything, while lack of requirements for compliance with continuity and other "difficluck" lore encourages the lazy hacks to churn out half-assed content at best and plainly not even bother to make sense at worst (in this case with the complication of Pointy Haired Bosses actively degrading quality, sure, but low starting level surely made the pit deeper).
On the design side, it manifests as piles of "eh, uh, or something", like in d20: stuff that is not well defined, like "darkvision" and worse. It's inevitably bad on a large scale exactly because it has no defined borders (see Sanderson's First Law). It's great to excuse away hackery on C-grade-student level, but does not allow consistent content).
The same effect was even worse (thus more obvious) in Warhammer 40k, where it led to infamous "grimderp" (which is little more than a pretentious version of painting with feces), and as the audience was desensitized to that, occasionally it reached the level of absurdity, such infamous incident of Matt Ward's "Khornate Knights" in 5th Edition.
Since lazy copypasting is already there, if tar and feathers a decisive cure is not applied in time, such things are apt to congeal into a ball of obnoxious hurr look at this reference and roll along the rock bottom.
[ /rant]
Which is why you see people asking "uh, which Earth god|people|... with serial numbers filed off X is?" even here on Candlekeep. Eventually people stop expecting any better than this.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2023 :  13:18:15  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
[It does not "show how big" it is any more than a stencilling a crude picture with "perspective" on a wall shows how big a building is. And at the quality level of most kitchen sinks, they would probably cause fits of claustrophobia.

Kitchen sinks are created out of laziness, and in turn breed silly mess.
This silly mess degrades the expected levels of content quality.



I mean, this is why I wrote YMMV (Your Millege May Vary).

The issues you also brought up, are not primiraily or exculisivelly connected the fantasy kitchen sink idea.

Revising Ultravision and Infravision to Low Light Vision and Darkvision, might be even seen as an attempt to reduce kitchen sink elements, by remove sci-fi (really reall-life physicics and biology inspired) elements from the game.

There are examples of very good use of fantasy kitchen sink story telling. Neil Gaiman's Sandman and it's spin-off Lucifer, are examples, as are to a degree Hellboy, Astro City or even Warhammer 40,000 when it's well written. In D&D, Planescape and Spelljammer are also examples of fantasy kitchen sink settings intentionally set-up as such. And also utilizing the previous fantasy kitchen sink elements in D&D, if expanding on it.

To return to Shami-Amourae, if were to take out the kitchen sink element, we would have to make the devil Lilith somehow the queen of succubi, prehaps even remove the the split of fiends into various species/factions. Ie meaning no more demons, devils, yuggoloths, and "lesser" groups, just all being now demons/fiends. Again, all are just various interpretations of demonology and demon-kind. Which I think would if anything, strip D&D of it's unique elements.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I've always used Lynkhab over Malcanthet, Shami or any other succubus, really, as Queen of the Succubi. I enjoyed the irony of the demon queen of desire being unable to obtain her own desires, over Ultra-succubus-just-add-hair-dye #1 and #2.



Well Lynkhab is interesting, but I think she could fully co-exist alongside a Malcanthet/Shami-Amourae type Succubi Queen.

But as I discussed with AuldDragon, Lynkhab curiusly was never named the Queen of Succubi or candidate for position in 2E (ie "Faces of Evil: The Fiends"), only an Abyssal Lord who gained form of divinity or something equivalent, by becoming an embodiment of desire.
Shami-Amourae was still the Queen of Succubi in 2E (something AuldDragon informed me of), as seen in the Road to Danger compilation and 2e update of multiple Dungeon magazine adventures, including "The Stolen Power".
It's not a simple update, as it includes new lore on Shami, including her aliance with Graz'zt, aliases (Shazra and Jezebel), and expanding on Shami's mortal past, which AuldDragon included in his write-up of her.

Lynkhab being a peer in terms of age to Shami-Amourae, is something also only stated in 3E.

Still, Lynkhab being rival to Shami-Amourae to the position of the Queen of Succubi, (though possibly now an ex-rival, due to Lynkhab's state and current mentality) would be something interesting.

Also, about Shami and aliases, I discovered Shami-Amourae has another alias - in Dungeon #136, this alias being Shamarae the Lover, as one of the 3000 Obahs (guardian spirits) of the Mur.

Other Obahs that are aliases of other planar beings, are Balim the Pretender, an alias for Baalzebul; and Wynnarth the Dervish, an alias for Gwynharwyf.

Edited by - Baltas on 22 Sep 2023 13:27:02
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1308 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2023 :  12:37:33  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why are Half-Elves and Elves unaffected by Abbathor's ability to arouse treasure lust in the mortal races?

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2023 :  18:45:08  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Why are Half-Elves and Elves unaffected by Abbathor's ability to arouse treasure lust in the mortal races?



It's not that elves and half-elves are specifically excluded from the power; it only affects the small races (all of whom are seen as somewhat related to dwarves), and humans. So basically it is "dwarf-related races and humans." I think the idea is that he has no power over those who are not related to dwarves other than humans.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2023 :  07:13:40  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cegilune the Hag Goddess: https://bit.ly/457mi7y

Just in time for the spooky season of October is Cegilune, goddess of hags. She rules the night hags of the Gray Waste and conducts trade in larva with diverse dark powers, while also haunting the Prime Material Plane in search of magic and souls to turn into more larva. With her, I chose to incorporate some of the European legends about witches just as I incorporated some similar Eastern information into her potential sister, Ysshara.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2023 :  06:35:25  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had a play with some Cegilune stuff for an upcoming DMs Guild release. Hags are cool.:)

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11769 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2023 :  14:55:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I had a play with some Cegilune stuff for an upcoming DMs Guild release. Hags are cool.:)

-- George Krashos



Yes, their culture is very under developed. They're kind of painted with the traditional halloween witch / wicked witch of the east paintbrush most of the time. I very much like the idea that they've had a lot of influence over goblinoid, troll, and ogre cultures (I view that in their minds, these races are "attractive" as opposed to sickly, weak humans, elves, etc....).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1308 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2023 :  11:23:19  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Why are Half-Elves and Elves unaffected by Abbathor's ability to arouse treasure lust in the mortal races?



It's not that elves and half-elves are specifically excluded from the power; it only affects the small races (all of whom are seen as somewhat related to dwarves), and humans. So basically it is "dwarf-related races and humans." I think the idea is that he has no power over those who are not related to dwarves other than humans.

Jeff



"All of the short guys. Oh...and humans, too."

Funny .

Honestly, I thought that ability was playing into the fantasy convention of Elves being less affected by (or even "impervious to", in specific instances) greed.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2023 :  16:25:17  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Honestly, I thought that ability was playing into the fantasy convention of Elves being less affected by (or even "impervious to", in specific instances) greed.



I suppose it could be that, but considering half-elves aren't affected either, it strikes me as unlikely. But I don't know for sure. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2405 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2023 :  22:52:38  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Honestly, I thought that ability was playing into the fantasy convention of Elves being less affected by (or even "impervious to", in specific instances) greed.

I thought that was playing into the fantasy convention of Dwarves and Elves not getting along.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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nblanton
Seeker

USA
80 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2023 :  04:30:14  Show Profile Send nblanton a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
It was not a thing at all. It appeared as a throwaway plot element in 1 (one) module: The Gates of Firestorm Peak (since the eponymous gates had to lead somewhere "no way no how").


That was the first mention, but it was added into the core game mechanics after that in the latter part of 2E. Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol. IV included several monsters that were described as from the Far Realm.

Granted, in previously editions Lovecraftian horrors were typically depicted as from some random layer of the Abyss.
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2023 :  20:17:02  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton

That was the first mention, but it was added into the core game mechanics after that in the latter part of 2E. Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol. IV included several monsters that were described as from the Far Realm.

Granted, in previously editions Lovecraftian horrors were typically depicted as from some random layer of the Abyss.



Those monsters are all from The Gates of Firestorm Peak. The MC Annuals collected monsters from adventures, magazines, and other products.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2023 :  05:54:02  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zaaman Rul, the Prince of Good Fire: https://bit.ly/3sevPMD

The weakest of the archomentals is Zaaman Rul, the prince of good fire creatures and rumored offspring of Imix. Representing the positive and beneficial aspects of fire, he perhaps naively attacked his father’s forces, but suffered a complete rout, forcing him into hiding until he can rebuild. Nothing like an underdog on the side of good to generate some excellent plot hooks!

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2023 :  06:42:33  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darahl Firecloak the Even-Tempered: https://bit.ly/3R6tXOA

One of the more interesting elven powers, and one who has estranged himself from his kin, is Darahl Firecloak. Once known as Tilvenar, a debacle with an evil artifact caused a great loss of status and led to him reinventing himself and looking outside the normal elven groups to rebuild his faith. Incorporated into this entry is a tidbit from Eric Boyd’s “Havens of Miyeritar,” available on DM’s Guild. Enjoy!

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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