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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 10 May 2014 : 15:31:12
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Cale mask riven. Why don't they come off as evil even though they clearly are ?
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Crystyn
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 16:05:04
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Because thieves and assassins are badasses in FR, also Cale has a strong morale code.
Not even Drow are truly evil as it is their nature not their choosing (in most cases). |
Finally completed my Drizzt collection |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 17:04:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Crystyn
Because thieves and assassins are badasses in FR, also Cale has a strong morale code.
Not even Drow are truly evil as it is their nature not their choosing (in most cases).
According to 4e, drow are all tainted with demonic blood (via some mixture of the balor Wendonai's blood and Lolth's divine tampering).
People kept saying the same thing in the debate about orcs being evil, but it 's not true. Drow have always been described as extraordinarily wicked. I don't think any non-planar race has a claim to being more evil than drow. |
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Crystyn
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 17:17:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
According to 4e, drow are all tainted with demonic blood (via some mixture of the balor Wendonai's blood and Lolth's divine tampering).
People kept saying the same thing in the debate about orcs being evil, but it 's not true. Drow have always been described as extraordinarily wicked. I don't think any non-planar race has a claim to being more evil than drow.
I am going by our standards. Animals know no good or evil so they are neither good nor evil, similarly it applies to Drow. Humans lacking empathy would be considered evil just because of that yet they aren't evil as it wasn't their choice. Being evil is deliberate. |
Finally completed my Drizzt collection |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 17:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Cale mask riven. Why don't they come off as evil even though they clearly are ?
The answer to this is situational. Mask is an evil god, and his followers (the ones we've seen at least) are evil as well. BUT they are a more benign sort of evil.
Cale or Riven would cut your throat with no hesitation, if you stood in their way. If you stay out of their way, you'll be fine. Mask is worse, because he's always developing plots that encompass a lot of people, and he has little regard for what happens to anyone involved, as long as he accomplishes his goals.
However, Mask doesn't plot with the goal of hurting people. Shar and her minions go out of their way to cause suffering. In facts, Sharrans are fond of telling the victims of their evil deeds, "Your bitterness is sweet to the Lady". Shar and her minions purposely hurt as many people as they can, and they revel in it afterwards. In fact, Shar wants to destroy everything that exists.
Thus, Mask and his Chosen don't seem evil because of who the books contrast them against. Cale's villains make him and Riven seem decent by comparison. The slaadi enjoyed slowly killing people and then eating them. Vhostym the Sojourner was willing to extinguish thousands of lives in order to walk in the sun for a few days.
Compared to these soulless monsters, Cale and Riven are easy to root for. That, and the fact that they have excellent dialogue.
SPOILERS
Judging by the events of "The Godborn", Cale is fully redeemed. The next book ought to be a fascinating read. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 18:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Crystyn
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
According to 4e, drow are all tainted with demonic blood (via some mixture of the balor Wendonai's blood and Lolth's divine tampering).
People kept saying the same thing in the debate about orcs being evil, but it 's not true. Drow have always been described as extraordinarily wicked. I don't think any non-planar race has a claim to being more evil than drow.
I am going by our standards. Animals know no good or evil so they are neither good nor evil, similarly it applies to Drow. Humans lacking empathy would be considered evil just because of that yet they aren't evil as it wasn't their choice. Being evil is deliberate.
My bad, I misread your first post. We agree that drow are born tainted, but it's unclear how possible it is for them to fight those strong natural urges. (I think 4e messed up with that, completely ignoring that drow like Liriel, Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Zaknafein, and Tosun are pure blood Illithyri, but are not evil).
However, I completely disagree with your assertion that they are not evil because they lack a choice. What else would you call their behaviors, attitudes, and overall worldview? It's evil. Torturing other sentient beings for fun is evil. We can certainly understand that their demonic taint, as well as their hellish society, make it very difficult for them to be otherwise. But they are clearly evil, regardless of how they came to be that way. |
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Crystyn
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 18:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
[...]The next book ought to be a fascinating read.
Sorry to burst this bubble, I myself anxiously waited years for The Godborn to happen.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
At this point, for my part, there are no additional FR novels currently on tap. I go into some detail here (both in the original post and later in the comments). https://www.facebook.com/paulskemp/posts/10152596807420830?stream_ref=10
Post is down though which might be a good sign
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
My bad, I misread your first post. We agree that drow are born tainted, but it's unclear how possible it is for them to fight those strong natural urges. (I think 4e messed up with that, completely ignoring that drow like Liriel, Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Zaknafein, and Tosun are pure blood Illithyri, but are not evil).
However, I completely disagree with your assertion that they are not evil because they lack a choice. What else would you call their behaviors, attitudes, and overall worldview? It's evil. Torturing other sentient beings for fun is evil. We can certainly understand that their demonic taint, as well as their hellish society, make it very difficult for them to be otherwise. But they are clearly evil, regardless of how they came to be that way.
I consider their acts evil not they themselves. If I read a novel dedicated solely to drow the MC is the good guy despite committing atrocities themselves. Pharaun is my all time favourite non Drizzt drow (Drizzt is undisputably above being ranked) and he was a conniving, pretentious ass who backstabbed pretty much everyone yet to me he is a good guy and on the list of hopeful resurrections in spot #1. |
Finally completed my Drizzt collection |
Edited by - Crystyn on 10 May 2014 18:21:44 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 22:44:00
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I think the issue is not only who we're comparing Cale, Riven and Mask to, but also that just because a guy is evil, that doesn't mean that he never does nice stuff too.
That being said, I think Cale has been a good guy for a long time now. And that Monk that appeared in the Godborn seemed to at least be Neutral in alignment. Depending on the source it looks like Mask can have worshippers of good and neutral alignments too. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2014 : 05:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I think the issue is not only who we're comparing Cale, Riven and Mask to, but also that just because a guy is evil, that doesn't mean that he never does nice stuff too.
And this is a fact that is far too often overlooked, when discussing evil alignments... Someone being evil doesn't mean they go around kicking kittens all day, every day. Evil folks can do good deeds, and can have loving relationships, and be happy with their friends and family... It's all in how they treat those outside of their friends and family.
One of my favorite evil groups, in all of fantasy fiction, was the Black Paladins of Zhakrin, in the Rose of the Prophet trilogy by Weis and Hickman. The Black Paladins didn't have any problem at all murdering people to make a point or to maintain silence. Murdering people and draining all of their blood was not a big deal. Taking slaves and feeding them to man-eating monsters, in exchange for passage across a small sea, was hardly worth their attention...
But they wept at the loss of one of their brothers. They were willing to lay down their lives for each other. It was considered an honor, for one of them, to spend his life avenging the death of another.
I read that trilogy not long after reading the Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends, by the same authors. And it was really big, to me, to see evil depicted like that -- instead of the approach Dragonlance had, at that time, of evil inevitably turning on itself.
Evil people don't always commit evil acts. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2014 : 17:33:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Depending on the source it looks like Mask can have worshippers of good and neutral alignments too.
In the earliest FR sourcebooks by Ed, Mask was described as a much more neutral deity. |
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Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2014 : 05:37:53
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-It's all relative. Plenty of things that I'd dubious, unsavory, or 'bad' are not in the Forgotten Realms, because of cultural differences and because- and I'm not exactly sure how to put it- we're talking about medieval-inspired fantasy, which is just portrayed as a lot more 'brutal' than what we experience and expect in our own lives.
-In terms of those specific characters, I'm sure a lot of it has to do with how they are written. Most people eventually come to sympathize and root for protagonists because they're "who you know", even if they're evil, evil people. Tony Soprano was a murdering, cheating, evil SOB, but you rooted for him over the other mafioso, who operated on the same exact moral plane. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 May 2014 05:41:02 |
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why don't I see then as evil?
