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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2016 :  03:40:07  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My shock was that Foxfire was her first ever lover. I guess I get it, but my Arilyn was a dark and gritty "good" assasin who had some one off flings in her career but never let anyone get emotionally close. A 40 year old virgin assassin who has all kinds of contacts in the seedy underbellies just felt off to me... I was surprised.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2016 :  04:16:15  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I don't see it as Arilyn sleeping around, since she wasn't really in a relationship with Danilo, as she herself perceived it.

She knew, intellectually, that Danilo was interested in her, but she was not in a place in her own life to accept that. Arilyn had always seen herself as an elf, but had been rejected and made aware she was different by the same elves she wanted to be accepted by. Foxfire accepted her as an elf, but he also realized she wasn't an elf, and accepted that about her, as well. Other events in the book helped, but its was Foxfire that enabled Arilyn to finally accept who she was. And it was only when she was comfortable with herself that she could accept Danilo's affection.

Before that, Danilo was like a coworker who had a one-sided crush. She liked him, she trusted him, she respected him -- but she just didn't think of him the same way he thought of her.



Everything you say is spot on. I wasn't thinking about it so much from an in-universe Arilyn perspective, but rather more of a meta-analysis that the guy heroes tend to get several chances to sew their wild oats before settling down with the princess, but female protagonists, not necessarily. So I can't refute your logic, I was more giving a mental fist-bump to Elaine for letting her female hero have a little fun.

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

My shock was that Foxfire was her first ever lover. I guess I get it, but my Arilyn was a dark and gritty "good" assasin who had some one off flings in her career but never let anyone get emotionally close. A 40 year old virgin assassin who has all kinds of contacts in the seedy underbellies just felt off to me... I was surprised.



No kidding! When Foxfire said "But you were a maiden still before Midsummer" I did a bit of a double take and had to re-read the line. Though never specifically mentioned, I just sort of assumed she "blew off some steam" from time to time, especially after completing a particularly dangerous or exhilarating Harper mission.

I view fantasy worlds as not being chock-full of adventurers around every corner. I think of adventurers as being the elite, like our own top-level athletes, movie stars, musicians, etc. And when these types cross paths there are bound to be some incidental "hook-ups". I'm not saying I thought of Arilyn as a floozy or easy, but geez Elminster gets laid every 12 pages, by goddesses no less. So good on Arilyn for having a fling.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2016 :  12:45:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

My shock was that Foxfire was her first ever lover. I guess I get it, but my Arilyn was a dark and gritty "good" assasin who had some one off flings in her career but never let anyone get emotionally close. A 40 year old virgin assassin who has all kinds of contacts in the seedy underbellies just felt off to me... I was surprised.



Keep in mind, as a half-elf, she was more the equivalent of a 25 year old human.

And until she was out on her own, she was surrounded by those who simply wouldn't accept her. So by the time she was out there earning a reputation as someone to not cross swords with, she was already emotially closed off.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2016 :  13:25:15  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I 100% get emotionally closed off--Arilyn is super tough, but I guess being a man myself...we get these urges that have nothing to do with emotions :) That's why I couldn't relate to the whole seedy-assassin virgin business. On the whole it's Elaine's character and I can get by why Arilyn wouldn't go "release steam" as Viking Legion put it. I was also initially surprised at her being a virgin because I had misread her relationship with a ranger in the first book as being a former lover (he was assassinated but the book clarifies that Arilyn let people THINK they were former lovers but really just friends).
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
745 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2016 :  16:07:21  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

Well I finished Dangerous Games the other night. It's mostly more of the same odd style - bizarre words and now I've noticed the author seems enamored with pairing up rhyming verbs. The vase shattered and clattered to the floor. The dragon huffed and puffed a gout of flame. Sunbright bled and fled the scene. In book 1 he used the term "scooched" at least a dozen times. In book 2 he's replaced this with "spanked" and "hams" (as in the backs of the thighs or thighs/buttocks) Two weapons clashing a parry spanked off each other. The crossbow bolt spanked off the floor and careened wildly. The elf "spanked Sunbright through the opening into semi-darkness, then shoved his hams from behind to keep him moving." [That last one is a direct quote] I challenge anyone here to read this book and find a run of 5 consecutive pages where he doesn't update us on what the asses of the characters are doing. Every fight has someone taking an arrow in the rump, or being knocked "on their hams" or "flexing their buttocks to break the hold". It's just utterly bizarre, like he made a game of how many backside references he could fit into one book.

I don't know a ton about Karsus, other than the well-known stuff - that he used heavy magic and 10th level spells and tried to cast his infamous Avatar spell. So this was my first exposure to the man behind the story. Emery writes him as a total crazy-pants - filthy dirty, unkempt hair that he tears out in patches while blathering on between topics like Brad Pitt in 12 monkeys, clapping his hands in delight while watching people die horribly, throwing temper tantrums if he's interrupted or doesn't get his way - just your stereotypical wingnut/man-child. As I said I don't know if there's official lore to support this version, but it didn't work for me, much like Marc Anthony's "cackling old madman" Halaster in Escape from Undermountain. If anyone with better knowledge of Karsus can chime in, that would be much appreciated. I see him as a megalomaniac, of course, but way more in control of himself - meticulous and methodical, not stark-raving loony.

On the plus side there were a few really enjoyable moments. The despicable fops and dandies prowling around Karsus Enclave, preying on the less fortunate and using their money/connections to elude any trouble, gave me this great "Clockwork Orange" vibe. I really enjoyed that scene and it did a fine job of showcasing the decadence and rot of the empire. Also there was a terrific fight scene between Sunbright and some mages in a library or similar building where he just goes off and slaughters them. It was so viciously written it felt like a Tarantino flick. It was nice to see him really cut loose. Lastly, I liked his "Wounded Healer" vision quest/shamanic transformation. That scene really worked for me, though it was a shame that after an initial expenditure/burst of power he wasn't able to retain more of it.

Ok that's all. I've since started in on the finale, Dangerous Games



This is why only Troy Denning "the Destroyer of Worlds" should be allowed to write major world changing novels such as these.


He's far and away the best author ever at writing RSE's and world shaking events.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2016 :  03:29:16  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Cormyr: A Novel tonight. I was filled with trepidation upon starting this book. As I've mentioned in previous reviews, I find Greenwood's frenetic writing style to be somewhat hard to follow at times, and I've not been shy about my dislike for Grubb's authoring when he descends too far into goofiness.

But a strange thing happened with this book....

It's like both authors cancelled out in each other those exact traits that don't work for me. Somehow Grubb reined in Greenwood's scattershot to a more focused approach, while simultaneously Greenwood curbed Grubb's tendencies for foolishness. There were still moments where each of their signatures shine through, to be sure. But for the most part this book was pretty terrific. Would it be too effusive to say this is one of the more indispensable masterpieces of Realms lore?

At first I didn't like the skipping around in time periods. I thought a straight chronological approach would've been better. But I was wrong. It would've built up a history for 50% of the book and then turned over entirely to the 1369DR storyline for the rest of the way. Nope, interspersing the chapters was definitely the way to go. And while I enjoyed the "current" storyline (I say that about a book that is 20 years old, proving how out of date I am!), it was the historical chapters I found absolutely riveting. My particular favorite was Galaghard's fight against the Witch Lords, with Othorion Keove and his elven host showing up just in time to save the day - just epic, majestic, Tolkeinesque writing in this chapter, I was smiling the whole time.

I was struck, forcibly and repeatedly, by some absolutely eerie coincidences between this book and A Game of Thrones - the first of GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire series - so much so that I had to look up the publishing dates of each. Both books were initially published in 1996, with Cormyr edging out GoT by a mere month - July for Ed, August for George. With that excruciatingly small a gap, there's simply no way possible either book could've influenced the other. That said, here are a few I managed to jot down:

I can't seem to figure out the syntax for a bullet list....

* Azoun's father is Rhighaerd, while the Targaryens have a Prince Rhaegar.
* Both books have a character specifically named the Kingslayer -Jorunhast the mage, predecessor to Vangerdahast slays Salembar the regent, and of course Jaime Lannister kills Aerys Targaryen.
* Speaking of Aerys, he is known by the moniker "The Mad King", as was Boldovar Obarskyr.
* Both the Red Keep in King's Landing and Orbarskyr Castle contain a dungeon filled with old dragon skulls.
* Vangerdahast - a crafty, chubby, scheming man who constantly mutters the phrase "for the good of the realm" reminded me so much of Varys throughout this book (the fact they both start with "V" made it even more forceful). But then, on page 180 of my hardcover edition he refers to himself as "some sort of spider that tugged their father this way and that". At that point I put the book down for a bit and said, "c'mon.... someone is messing with me...".
* I didn't realize all the Obarskyrs were such players. Azoun IV's constant wenching and having "50 some-odd bastards spread around Suzail" couldn't help but draw comparisons to Robert Baratheon and his brood. This made the Red Wizardess's big reveal of birthing a son of royal blood not dissimilar to the "Gendry" storyline in GoT.
* On the subject of the Red Wizardess, I just read her name as Melisandre, the Red Lady :P
* 2 kings are severely wounded on a hunting trip that is compromised by treachery. Ok so a boar is no abraxus - magical/clockwork, poison wielding golden bull construct - so I had to reach a bit on that one.
* GoT has the Iron Throne - a chair forged from 1,000 blades of conquered lords given up as a sign of fealty. Obarskyr Castle has something called The Sword Portal: "Most folk in Suzail had stood before those massive double doors at least once in their lives, gaping at the armor plate that sheathed the thick timbers. Everyone in the city knew that the door was as thick as a brawny man's forearm, and everyone in the realm knew what the thick tangle of welded-on swords that covered both doors were: the captured blades of "foes of the Crown"".

Again, eerie similarities. With such close publication dates I can't say there's any kind of funny business going on here, I just thought there were enough of these little moments to make it worth mentioning.

For the first time in almost 5 years I'm going to take a slight break from TSR/WotC books (having finished every Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Dragonlance book, and now the first decade of FR books) and read a book called Ready Player One, as I've heard some good things about it. After that brief interlude I will resume my Realms attack with Passage to Dawn, so there might be a little while before the next update.






Edited by - VikingLegion on 28 Jun 2016 04:01:53
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2016 :  02:56:06  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's off topic to this thread (and forum), but for those wondering, Ready Player One was absurdly good - maybe the most fun I've had reading a book in.... ever? If you are somewhere around 40 years old, have a love of 80s geek culture - cartoons, video games, movies, D&D, etc. you owe it to yourself to read this book. Bonus points if you've ever played an old-school MMO like Everquest.

Moving on, I finished Passage to Dawn a few days ago. I usually try to write these the night I finish, but didn't get around to it this time, so it's not as fresh in my mind. I didn't love the whole witch/prophesy thing. I don't know if he was going for some kind of ode to The Odyssey, I just didn't care for it. The story overall was ok, but definitely the least enjoyable of the "Drizzt and Friends" books. Also, for the first time we see his Icewind Dale characters linking up with his Cleric Quintet characters. Cattie-brie missed not once, but twice with her magical bow in the same book! This was definitely noteworthy to me, as I cannot recall a single time before that she didn't devastate her target with Taulmaril.

Since then I've started in on Mage in the Iron Mask with no small amount of trepidation, based on the author.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2016 :  03:56:51  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finished Mage in the Iron Mask last night and was mildly (emphasis on mild) pleased. This was undoubtedly only because I put myself in the mindset that it would be an utter abomination like Once Around the Realms, so by setting the bar ultra-low I was pleasantly surprised to find this was only a bad book, not an excruciating one.

Then again, the author just couldn't resist inserting some of his trademark idiocy - like a fellow named Seau Raisis that suffers from a terribly itchy skin condition, which can only be cured by a cleric named Oleigh that comes up with a special healing oil to apply (Oil of Oleigh, ugh...) Why does he do that? Does anyone find it witty, clever, or funny? I'm sure there were several more such gems that eluded me, I really only gave about 20% effort as I half-read/half-skimmed this book. Still, as I said earlier, it wasn't nearly as bad as OAtR, so for that I suppose I should give it some small amount of credit. I sincerely hope this is the last of the Volo/Passepout offerings, though I'm too scared to look it up and be disheartened if there are more.

I've since started in on Murder in Halruua
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2016 :  21:41:41  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Murder in Halruaa last night. It was an odd book. I actually would've liked to have seen quite a bit more exposition on Halruaa, it wasn't until near the very end when they board one of the famed skyships that it really felt like it was anything but a story that could've been plopped down in any generic fantasy setting. At 249 pages this was a pretty sparse read. The story had some decent twists and turns, as to be expected from a murder mystery, but it was also filled with a prevalence of goofy puns based on the name of the main character - Pryce Covington (the Pryce is right, that's the Pryce you have to pay) - every time he spoke I pictured that guy on CSI putting his sunglasses on. There were also a boatload of minor characters introduced, mostly I guess to seed the field with plenty of suspects. None of them had much impact for me, in fact I think I blended a few of them together. All told it wasn't a bad book, just not one I'd highly recommend.

Tonight I'll start in on Stormlight.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2016 :  05:49:13  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finished Stormlight last night, it was an odd and interesting book. Just on the off chance I didn't realize it was an Ed G story, he made sure to open up with Storm chopping wood on her farm in the early morning wearing only boots, gloves, and nothing else but a fine sheen of sweat. That's so Greenwood...

While doing other chores on her farm it she carries a tree to mend a hole in her fence. The tree is described as being: "as long as three horses, and weighed almost as much". Ok, some super quick interweb searches tell me the average adult horse is 1,102 pounds, making three of them 3.3k. An equally quick and lazy search of "car weights" shows me a 2012 Toyota Camry as weighing 3,190 pounds. Ok, I know the Chosen of Mystra must get some significant passive stat boosts, but Storm can carry a midsize Sedan on her shoulders across her farm? Granted it said she was puffing with effort, but wow I had no idea she was so physically powerful. How would she ever lose a swordfight? Even if her opponent manages to parry, she would turn his arms, shoulders, ribs to jelly with bone-shattering force on every strike, blocked or not.

***EDIT***
***Just got back from rushing my cat to the vet ER and am too tired/dispirited to finish this write-up now. Maybe tomorrow.***

Well, insomnia being what it is, I guess I might as well finish this up now, since there's no way I'm getting any sleep tonight:

I liked the overall feel and vibe of this book. Being trapped in a castle with a shape-shifting killing machine that slowly picks off one person after another and absorbs their skills and memories gave it more of a horror theme - like Aliens or better yet, John Carpenter's The Thing.

There was a subplot towards the end that made almost no sense to me. Some magical rod is discovered by one of the war wizards and he inadvertently releases the soul of a dead dragon - Dendeirmerdammarar. Ye gods, some of the dragon names in FR.... I swear I didn't make that one up. Anyway, The Foe appears to assimilate the dragon, gaining fiery breath, yet a few pages later we see the draconic ghost flying away towards Suzail to wreak vengeance on Amedehast, the first royal wizard that imprisoned it centuries ago. Vangerdahast, through long range crystal ball scrying, then manages to somehow reduce the ghost back into a small trinket, which then plummets to the earth - disaster avoided. This whole tangent seemed completely incongruous and unnecessary to the rest of the tale, I just don't know why it was there.

Also Storm got a bit comic booky/video gamey towards the end, using her silver fire to "blast off" into the air and perform some kind of crash down Street Fighter kick to the enemy's chest. Other than that and the absurdly high body count (the foe slaughtered more armsmen than could've possibly fit in that keep), this was a pretty interesting and exciting read. I've found the last two Greenwoods to be quite enjoyable, moreso than the earlier Spellfire material.

Up next I go back to the Nobles series for The Council of Blades.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 26 Jul 2016 08:02:04
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2016 :  22:47:40  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I finished Cormyr: A Novel tonight. I was filled with trepidation upon starting this book. As I've mentioned in previous reviews, I find Greenwood's frenetic writing style to be somewhat hard to follow at times, and I've not been shy about my dislike for Grubb's authoring when he descends too far into goofiness.

But a strange thing happened with this book....

It's like both authors cancelled out in each other those exact traits that don't work for me. Somehow Grubb reined in Greenwood's scattershot to a more focused approach, while simultaneously Greenwood curbed Grubb's tendencies for foolishness. There were still moments where each of their signatures shine through, to be sure. But for the most part this book was pretty terrific. Would it be too effusive to say this is one of the more indispensable masterpieces of Realms lore?

At first I didn't like the skipping around in time periods. I thought a straight chronological approach would've been better. But I was wrong. It would've built up a history for 50% of the book and then turned over entirely to the 1369DR storyline for the rest of the way. Nope, interspersing the chapters was definitely the way to go. And while I enjoyed the "current" storyline (I say that about a book that is 20 years old, proving how out of date I am!), it was the historical chapters I found absolutely riveting. My particular favorite was Galaghard's fight against the Witch Lords, with Othorion Keove and his elven host showing up just in time to save the day - just epic, majestic, Tolkeinesque writing in this chapter, I was smiling the whole time.

I was struck, forcibly and repeatedly, by some absolutely eerie coincidences between this book and A Game of Thrones - the first of GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire series - so much so that I had to look up the publishing dates of each. Both books were initially published in 1996, with Cormyr edging out GoT by a mere month - July for Ed, August for George. With that excruciatingly small a gap, there's simply no way possible either book could've influenced the other. That said, here are a few I managed to jot down:

I can't seem to figure out the syntax for a bullet list....

* Azoun's father is Rhighaerd, while the Targaryens have a Prince Rhaegar.
* Both books have a character specifically named the Kingslayer -Jorunhast the mage, predecessor to Vangerdahast slays Salembar the regent, and of course Jaime Lannister kills Aerys Targaryen.
* Speaking of Aerys, he is known by the moniker "The Mad King", as was Boldovar Obarskyr.
* Both the Red Keep in King's Landing and Orbarskyr Castle contain a dungeon filled with old dragon skulls.
* Vangerdahast - a crafty, chubby, scheming man who constantly mutters the phrase "for the good of the realm" reminded me so much of Varys throughout this book (the fact they both start with "V" made it even more forceful). But then, on page 180 of my hardcover edition he refers to himself as "some sort of spider that tugged their father this way and that". At that point I put the book down for a bit and said, "c'mon.... someone is messing with me...".
* I didn't realize all the Obarskyrs were such players. Azoun IV's constant wenching and having "50 some-odd bastards spread around Suzail" couldn't help but draw comparisons to Robert Baratheon and his brood. This made the Red Wizardess's big reveal of birthing a son of royal blood not dissimilar to the "Gendry" storyline in GoT.
* On the subject of the Red Wizardess, I just read her name as Melisandre, the Red Lady :P
* 2 kings are severely wounded on a hunting trip that is compromised by treachery. Ok so a boar is no abraxus - magical/clockwork, poison wielding golden bull construct - so I had to reach a bit on that one.
* GoT has the Iron Throne - a chair forged from 1,000 blades of conquered lords given up as a sign of fealty. Obarskyr Castle has something called The Sword Portal: "Most folk in Suzail had stood before those massive double doors at least once in their lives, gaping at the armor plate that sheathed the thick timbers. Everyone in the city knew that the door was as thick as a brawny man's forearm, and everyone in the realm knew what the thick tangle of welded-on swords that covered both doors were: the captured blades of "foes of the Crown"".

Again, eerie similarities. With such close publication dates I can't say there's any kind of funny business going on here, I just thought there were enough of these little moments to make it worth mentioning.

For the first time in almost 5 years I'm going to take a slight break from TSR/WotC books (having finished every Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Dragonlance book, and now the first decade of FR books) and read a book called Ready Player One, as I've heard some good things about it. After that brief interlude I will resume my Realms attack with Passage to Dawn, so there might be a little while before the next update.









Finally!

glad you enjoyed it, even if I think you are crazy for not liking otherGrubb
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BrianDavion
Seeker

71 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2016 :  23:06:26  Show Profile Send BrianDavion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
regarding the minor similarities between GOT and cormyr, could it be both Ed and GRRM where inspired by the same sources? perhaps a historical kingdom or something?
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
147 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2016 :  23:55:55  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion

regarding the minor similarities between GOT and cormyr, could it be both Ed and GRRM where inspired by the same sources? perhaps a historical kingdom or something?

That would be, atleast as the most significant influence (but far from the only one), The War of the Roses.

Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2016 :  18:37:34  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Council of Blades several days ago but had a week from hell and never got on here to talk about it. I'm guessing it won't engender a whole lot of conversation anyway, so no big deal. I found it to be a rather odd book, and found this scroll on Candlekeep from back in 2006 that mirrors my thoughts exactly:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6422

The "Renaissance Italy" feel of the book seemed completely incongruous to me. Also there was a whole lot of silliness, mainly from the firebird, but also some of the caricature-like characters (the mother-in-law foremost). I think if this was a standalone book in an undefined fantasy world it might've been more enjoyable to me. The story wasn't awful, and when left to the military aspects I thought the writer did a very good job. It was the other supporting chapters that fell a bit flat, and the fact that it felt like a fish out of water when viewed as a Realms product.

I've since started in on Finder's Bane and am already about 2/3 of the way through it.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 02 Aug 2016 18:38:23
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2016 :  03:30:14  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finder's Bane is a neat book to me. I hope you enjoy it.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2016 :  05:36:02  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Finder's Bane is a neat book to me. I hope you enjoy it.



I did, quite a bit in fact. It is easily my favorite of all the Grubb/Novak novels thus far, which I know you won't agree with based on your admiration for the original Finder's Stone trilogy, but that's ok. Finder's Bane (I even thought the title was witty) was well done and seemed to be nearly devoid of the anachronisms and sometimes-silliness that hurts my immersion in so many other books. I like, but don't love, the new cast of characters - Joel, Jed, Jasmine (that's a lot of J's), and Holly - perhaps they'll grow on me a bit more as the story continues. I like Jas the least. I get that as a Spelljammer and planar traveler it's almost mandatory to write such characters as world-weary, condescending cynics, and she always has some kind of snarky comeback, but for now she's just coming off as a lesser Olive with zero percent of the charm. I still don't really know what her deal is or why she even has wings, so maybe she'll become more clear to me in the next book.

I'm a HUGE Planescape mega-fan, I believe it is far and away the most exquisite setting TSR ever released (I hope that admission doesn't get me kicked off this forum), so I was pretty pleased as the direction of this quest started going more planar in nature, particularly when it involved a trip to Sigil. I think Grubb laid on the Sigil cant just a wee bit thick, but I just smiled and let him have it - I figured he must've been excited to get the opportunity and reasoned that overdoing it a tad was preferable to underdoing it. The Planescape novel line is criminally thin IMO, so having this book serve as sort of a pseudo-Planescape tale works just fine for me!

My publication date list has Tymora's Luck as the very next book (how did they write them both back to back so quickly?) so that is what I started in on tonight, which is perfect as I'm really enjoying this tale.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2016 :  00:49:26  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jasmine was in the Grubb Forgotten Realms comics from the late 80s/early 90s before Finder's Bane...so she was an established character. Her backstory is interesting (and yes, it does get revealed why she has wings!).
Tymora's Luck has little to do with the Realms, and is more of a Planescape book, but it continues Joel/Jas/Holly/Finder and a new Kender character who is interesting enough.
Hope you like! (also to get another comment in: Azure Bonds and The Wyvern's Spur are the best!)
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
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Posted - 08 Aug 2016 :  06:05:38  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Tymora's Luck last night and found it to be an odd experience. For the first 250 pages or so my "review" of it would've been to say almost the exact same things as Finder's Bane - same cast, same storyline, same level of enjoyment for me. But then the wheels sort of fell off rapidly. Maybe it was the reveal that Lathander was the bad guy, which I didn't buy at all, even being duped by Xvim. [The rest of this review is going to go pretty negative from this point on, but I'll reiterate/disclaim again that I really liked 4/5 of this book, as well as its predecessor. It just kind of fell apart towards the end.]

It was then I started to notice more of the Grubbisms. I don't know if they were present all along and I just sort of blocked them up to that point because I was enjoying the story or what, but all of the sudden they just started coming at me in rapid succession. From the relatively benign (the imp using the word incommunicado), to the silly (Jasmine saying "that's just ducky", Holly saying "I don't think we're in Gehenna anymore" - that one was for you Seravin!), to the over-the-top goofy (Holly calling the fusion chamber the "few chin chamber", the character of Fizz Something, etc.) it seems like the last 50 pages went a bit slapstick. This was capped off when Iyachtu Xvim tripped and fell over a cat. I didn't make that up. Lathander had gathered up several idols representing good and bad luck (horseshoe, rabbit's foot, etc.), one of which was a black cat. Xvim backed up, not seeing the cat, and was tripped to the ground. A god. Felled by a housecat and clumsiness. C'mon....

And that's the problem I've had with all the Grubb/Novak works, going way back to the very first write-up in this thread I did on Azure Bonds over a year ago. It doesn't matter if the character is a Greater Power, an Avatar, an ancient and mighty red dragon, or a town commoner - ALL of their characters descend into some form of buffoonery, both physical and verbal.

Speaking of the fusion chamber, isn't one of the defining characteristics of Krynnish tinker-gnomes that their inventions nearly always fail spectacularly? I didn't like that plot device of them building a machine to smash Tymora and Beshaba back into Tyche. It was a little too high-tech for my personal tastes, and the thought of a bunch of silly gnomes being able to create something that can actually affect deities just doesn't jive for me. A magical ritual would've worked much better, but I understand they were trying to draw in elements from Dragonlance.

Going back to the buffoon angle, the danger of writing any kind of Planescape material is that it is nearly impossible to write the gods believably, particularly if the protagonists are going to interact with them directly. I ascribe more to the school of thought that a deity needs an intermediary to converse with a follower, as their slightest utterance would blast a mortal into their component molecules. So to see Holly, Joel, Jasmine, Emilo chumming it up with Lathander, Sirrion(Xvim), Selune, Tymora, and Beshaba - arguing, fighting, and so on - was just patently absurd to me. I can buy it with Joel and Finder, because he's more of a demi/quasi power just starting to establish himself. But when the few-chin chamber (har-har) blew up in Morninglory and sent Lathander hurtling for miles, that was the last straw for me. A Greater Power residing on his home turf is all but unassailable. His slightest whim is instantly transformed into reality. He should be able to stand directly next to a 50 megaton Tsar-Bomb and calmly whisper "No" while it goes off, completely failing to affect him or anyone he chooses to make immune. To see him tossed around his own realm like a ragdoll was a terrible disappointment.

The Paladine and Raistlin Majere entries were absolutely dreadful and illustrate why only Weis and Hickman should be allowed to write them. The Fizban jokes fell utterly flat and the short blurb about Raistlin describing the opera did not even remotely resemble anything he would ever say or write.

My last bone of contention was the subplot involving the Wyvernspur children. This did nothing whatsoever to advance the story. It seemed like a bit of self indulgence on the author's part, I just couldn't figure out what it was doing in the book.

On the plus side, Jasmine's character did become much more interesting as I learned her backstory.

So there it is - a good rollicking planar tale for about 550 pages (over both books), and then a steaming mess for the last 50. I try to look at it as a whole product, and I did enjoy it for the majority of time reading, so overall it was time well spent.


Tomorrow night I plan to start The Simbul's Gift.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 08 Aug 2016 06:10:48
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Seravin
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Canada
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Posted - 11 Aug 2016 :  14:32:51  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah Tymora's Luck is an odd duck, I don't really consider it a Realms novel because I don't think they spend any time IN the Realms and it involves Spell Jammer/Planescape/Gods/Krynn characters nearly as much as it involves anyone from the Realms.

I don't like the Gods (outside of Finder who is more of a Demi-Power, not even a Demi-God to me) being used as characters in a novel. I never have and never will. THe Avatar Trilogy was pretty awful (to me), and no book has done it well since then. A true God like Tymora or Selune or Iyachtu Xvim, Lathander, etc would be a being that is all knowing, all powerful, etc and make an awful "character" because of those reasons. Humanizing the Gods to the point of making them like they are in Greek fables doesn't work for me and my idea of a God in the Realms.

So I liked Finder's Bane, and really like the characters in Tymora's Luck, but don't like anything to do with the Gods themselves outside of Finder who is not a true God (yet). I do like that both books made Walinda to be somewhat of a grey character, evil but also pragmatic and capable of helping.

The Simbul's Gift was one of the best representations of Thay, I loved the parts about Thay in the book, but didn't like the half-elves of the forests so much. I think Aznar (the Zulkir of evocation) was an amazing character as represented in this book. Lauzoril (the Zulkir of Enchantment/Charm) was also very neatly written. Szass Tam is licking his wounds in this book, which I also enjoyed as I don't like his dominance of Thay so much :)

IN a perfect Realms world, Szass would have been forced out of Thay by the combined might of the other Zulkirs, and he would have gone to Vassa, and turned THAT into an undead Realms; which would be an enemy of Thay and all the Dales, Cormyr, Sembia, Sword Coast, etc. Thay would move more to neutral as a kingdom. That would be so much more interesting than Undead Lich King Thay which is so boring compared to the Zulkirs ruling Mageocracy obssesed with trade and commerce.
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VikingLegion
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USA
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Posted - 15 Aug 2016 :  20:56:41  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished two books last week, I'll tackle them in order:

The Simbul's Gift was absolutely terrific. I'm too lazy to go back and rank the 100 or so books I've covered in this thread, but I'd say this last one goes in my top 15 easy, maybe top 10. Even if I hadn't checked the cover before starting, I'd have known this was a Lynn Abbey story by about page 3. Her style is extremely distinctive from what I read of her Dark Sun material. She writes very angsty characters, usually with some kind of betrayal or familial issues, prone to emotional explosions. Who better then to write a story about the temperamental and mercurial "Storm-Queen of Aglarond"? The co-main character, Ebroin (it took me a few pages to get over his nickname of "Bro"), reminds me an awful lot of the half-elf in Telhami's grove from the novel Brazen Gambit, for those who may have read it. His name is eluding me at the moment.... drat.

She also tends to write a lot of shifting alliances, and I'll admit sometimes she just plain confuses the heck out of me. I can read a paragraph 3 times and still remain unsure as to what she's getting at. But overall she really knocked it out of the park with this book. The characters were excellent, particularly the Thayans - who were far from cardboard cutouts. These "villains" had some depth to them. How about that? Humanizing the bad guys and offering some shades of gray as opposed to cliché, moustache-twirling BBEGs that all drink the blood of babies and puppies. Lauzoril stole the show for me. He was almost sweet and tender at times, particularly when dealing with his family, but then also showed he can be the monster you'd expect a zulkir to be when he needed to. His interaction with Alassra at the end was incredibly well written. The subplot with Mythrell'aa and Lailomun was also terrific.

I'm going to be very sad when Thay becomes a boring necropolis. I'm so with you Seravin on thinking it is one of the most interestingly set up countries/areas in all of FR. Why, oh why would they go and mess with that? I very much like your version of the 7 other zulkirs uniting to give Tam the boot, and he in turn finding his own Land of the Dead to menace everyone in the region.
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VikingLegion
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USA
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Posted - 15 Aug 2016 :  21:07:00  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

Don't read Tymora's Luck then. You'll rip out your eyes.



Hahaha, I just came across this, more than a year later. Yeah, there were definitely some moments...
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VikingLegion
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Posted - 16 Aug 2016 :  01:35:06  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The other book I just finished is Elminster in Myth Drannor. It was a pretty good read, I vastly prefer this "amateur" version of Elminster before he learned to wave a finger and annihilate entire armies. On the other hand, it's a bit annoying that anytime he gets in a tough spot he just cries to Mystra in his head and gets a bailout. I recently dug out my Myth Drannor boxed set from storage in the basement for other purposes, so this book came at a good time. The origin of the mythal creation was pretty cool to see. Man these elves were awful and unlikable, though I get why he chose to go that route - to make them decadent and in need of the other races to rekindle them. There was a huge cast of characters, and the names were a bit cumbersome at times to keep track of, but overall it was enjoyable. I could've done without the final attempt at disrupting the mythal ceremony. Not only was it anticlimactic, but the archmage of the Starym family just got done, after a failed coup, of lecturing his kin about the need for discretion and laying low/pledging loyalty to the Coronal, and then he goes in like a bull in a china shop and starts a huge spell battle in front of the entire city. That aside it was a decent read.

What I'd really like to see is the story of the fall of Myth Drannor. Of course it is summarized in the gaming material, but is that tale ever novelized anywhere? I see in the blurb for The Temptation of Elminster it states - "The glory that was Cormanthyr is no more. The might city of Myth Drannor lies in ruin..." so I'm hoping it is detailed there, but my gut tells me it's just going to be another summary and the action will pick up in the aftermath. It'll be a couple months before I get to that book though, 1998 has a boatload to get through.

Tonight I will start in on the anthology Realms of the Arcane.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 19 Mar 2020 17:58:43
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George Krashos
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Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2016 :  02:59:40  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

What I'd really like to see is the story of the fall of Myth Drannor. Of course it is summarized in the gaming material, but is that tale ever novelized anywhere? I see in the blurb for The Temptation of Elminster it states - "The glory that was Cormanthyr is no more. The might city of Myth Drannor lies in ruin..." so I'm hoping it is detailed there, but my gut tells me it's just going to be another summary and the action will pick up in the aftermath. It'll be a couple months before I get to that book though, 1998 has a boatload to get through.



You suspect rightly. The fall of Myth Drannor has never been novelised (although the "Fall of Myth Drannor" accessory comes close)except in a few flashback scenes in Rich Baker's Last Mythal trilogy.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Firestorm
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Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2016 :  17:00:45  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I finished two books last week, I'll tackle them in order:

The Simbul's Gift was absolutely terrific. I'm too lazy to go back and rank the 100 or so books I've covered in this thread, but I'd say this last one goes in my top 15 easy, maybe top 10. Even if I hadn't checked the cover before starting, I'd have known this was a Lynn Abbey story by about page 3. Her style is extremely distinctive from what I read of her Dark Sun material. She writes very angsty characters, usually with some kind of betrayal or familial issues, prone to emotional explosions. Who better then to write a story about the temperamental and mercurial "Storm-Queen of Aglarond"? The co-main character, Ebroin (it took me a few pages to get over his nickname of "Bro"), reminds me an awful lot of the half-elf in Telhami's grove from the novel Brazen Gambit, for those who may have read it. His name is eluding me at the moment.... drat.

She also tends to write a lot of shifting alliances, and I'll admit sometimes she just plain confuses the heck out of me. I can read a paragraph 3 times and still remain unsure as to what she's getting at. But overall she really knocked it out of the park with this book. The characters were excellent, particularly the Thayans - who were far from cardboard cutouts. These "villains" had some depth to them. How about that? Humanizing the bad guys and offering some shades of gray as opposed to cliché, moustache-twirling BBEGs that all drink the blood of babies and puppies. Lauzoril stole the show for me. He was almost sweet and tender at times, particularly when dealing with his family, but then also showed he can be the monster you'd expect a zulkir to be when he needed to. His interaction with Alassra at the end was incredibly well written. The subplot with Mythrell'aa and Lailomun was also terrific.

I'm going to be very sad when Thay becomes a boring necropolis. I'm so with you Seravin on thinking it is one of the most interestingly set up countries/areas in all of FR. Why, oh why would they go and mess with that? I very much like your version of the 7 other zulkirs uniting to give Tam the boot, and he in turn finding his own Land of the Dead to menace everyone in the region.


Humanizing bad guys. I miss Paul Kemp :(
At least his non realms books are still awesome. But WOTC should but up and pay a lot of these authors fairly
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VikingLegion
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USA
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Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  19:10:08  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Realms of the Arcane today. Like all the anthologies it has its ups and downs. Of particular note I enjoyed:

Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea - no surprise here, I've come to expect excellence from Elaine Cunningham. This was a really interesting take on the origins of sahuagin and malenti. Of course it almost certainly flies in the face of established lore, but even this is referenced at the end when the wemic bard states the tale may only be legend, but still serves as a valuable learning parable.

When Even Sky Cities Fall - like a lot of J. Robert King's works, this story was a bit depressing, bleak, and just plain dark. At less than 20 pages it was the shortest of the entries, but had a powerful impact. Just a very grim but effective tale set during the fall of Netheril.

The interludes told a fun story of the "guardian spirit" force that protects and preserves Candlekeep - utilizing some thinly veiled references to many of the architects of the Realms by slightly altering their names and casting them as monks who have willingly given their essence to sustain the library - Troyan (Denning), Jeffery (Grubb), Robar (Salvatore), Niles (Doug), Edmund (Greenwood), and so on. It was a cute, tongue in cheek kind of story broken up into segments between the other tales.

There was no homerun story in this collection, but neither were there any unbearable clunkers either. All in all it was a pretty average read. Up next I think I will tackle the semi-canonical and oft-maligned Double Diamond saga. I'm hoping to get through an installment each day, so this should take just a bit over a week if I can keep on schedule. I know that part of the gimmick is that it can be read in any order, but all things being equal I will just read them from 1 to 9, starting with The Abduction.
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Entromancer
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USA
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Posted - 21 Aug 2016 :  03:43:08  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's the backstory on the Double Diamond saga and its reputation in the fandom?

"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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VikingLegion
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USA
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Posted - 29 Aug 2016 :  04:04:56  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer

What's the backstory on the Double Diamond saga and its reputation in the fandom?



I don't know for sure, it just seems the few times I've read anyone discussing it, they seem to pan or dismiss it. As for its canonicity, I couldn't say, as I had absolutely no knowledge of this region - the Utter East - before I started this series. I didn't even know there was such a landmass, so it's impossible for me to say whether the stories did anything canon-breaking. I will say that a major and very recognizable Faerunian villain does play a prominent role in this series, probably against that author's wishes and just to raise sales.

I finished the Saga a couple days ago, here are some random thoughts on each book (I apologize if I cross them up a bit):

The Abduction - I'm very up and down with this author. Of his 2 Ravenloft novels I thought one was excellent and the other terrible. I found his Dragonlance and FR short stories to be very good, but his Planescape trilogy to be amongst the worst fantasy I've ever read. I never know what I'm going to get from a J. Robert King story. That said, I found this first book to be a very solid start to the series. Dark, moody, it established a great tone.

The Paladins - uggh, flashbacks of the "Pools" novels. Ward's writing style simply does not work for me at all. In particular, his fiends always come off rather clownish Latenat!!

The Mercenaries - entertaining yarn from Greenwood. I'm getting more and more used to him, I've liked most of his work recently.

Errand of Mercy - perhaps the best of the series. I really liked Moore's depiction of Ikavi Garkim - the telepathic servant to King Aetheric III. I liked the reveal that the bloodforge has changed the man into some gigantic aquatic monster. It made me wonder what physical transformations the other 4 kingdom's rulers have undergone. It feels not unlike the psionic/defiler dragon-kings of Athas.

An Opportunity for Profit - wow, now that is how a fiend should be written (Jim Ward, take notes). That thing was vicious, hunting the pirate party throughout the jungle, picking them off one by one like a Predator. Terrific tension and mood in this installment. It didn't offer up comic book villain dialogue, it simply stalked them and eliminated with ruthless efficiency. My only [slight] problem with this book was all the fiends in the assaulting Doegan up to this point have been tanar'ri, whereas this fiend, while never specifically identified, was almost certainly an osylyth, which is a baatezu. Perhaps it was a lone devil sent to see what the demons were up to?

Conspiracy - recall I said I'm very up and down with J. Robert King. Everything he did well in book 1 was completely absent in book 6. The attempts at comedy with the Boarskyr brothers was absolutely brutal to read. This book was a miss on all levels.

Uneasy Alliances - pretty good book minus a few nitpicks. First, it got annoying that the author(s) could not refer to Artemis Entreri without mentioning how small he is. Every time he made an appearance it was "the little man" or "the diminutive assassin". I get that he's not a powerhouse, but rather a small, lithe, wiry fighter who wins by agility, but geez... reading this book you'd think he is of Tyrion Lannister stature. Second, after wielding nothing but a war hammer his entire career, suddenly Kern became a sword fighter. Oops. Other than that this was a decent read.

Easy Betrayals - another good installment, I thought Baker did the best of all the authors in fleshing out the otherwise bland pirate crew. Maybe it just took a few books to establish them, but I thought he gave them the most character and personality.

The Diamond - ok finish to the series. Almost derailed by the a return of the atrocious Boarskyr brothers, but some pretty good metaphysical imagery and a satisfying, if not a bit predictable, ending.

Phew, now that I'm through all that, I'd like to learn a bit more about this region. As stated above, I'm fascinated at how the bloodforges alter their rulers, and am curious to see what is going on in the other kingdoms. I didn't love the origins of these nations, I always view the Ffolk as a rather peaceful, unassuming lot - not as conquering conquistador types that would subjugate an indigenous people to their will. But there's enough there to pique my interest, I just don't know if there's anything out there to read more about this area.

I've since started in on the next book in my order: Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2016 :  05:37:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know that the Double Diamond series is apocrypha in that they are stories within stories (i.e. they would be sold on the streets of Waterdeep as fiction, if that makes any sense ...)

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2016 :  17:34:03  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

You know that the Double Diamond series is apocrypha in that they are stories within stories (i.e. they would be sold on the streets of Waterdeep as fiction, if that makes any sense ...)

-- George Krashos



That does make sense. When I was big into reading the Dragonlance series I heard a similar explanation for many of the Preludes series. The main characters of the Chronicles/Legends series became known heroes in their own world, and many "campside stories" sprang up concerning them. This is a justification or explanation I guess for the questionable quality and canonicity of the prequel attempts, many of which were really, really bad.

On to Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, which I finished the other night. This book was ok, but at times I did have to force myself to keep reading it. I'm not sure why, I can't recall anything glaringly bad, I just had a hard time caring. Seravin and I recently discussed how difficult it is to write gods as characters, maybe that had something to do with it. These gods weren't nearly as buffoonish as the depictions in Tymora's Luck, but still I don't like seeing them on such a personal level. On the other hand, Mystra, Cyric, and Kelemvor - having come from mortal origins and not being gods all that long - should get a bit of a pass since they would act the most "human" of all the deities. Overall I'd say it was a pretty average book, not particularly good or bad. On an unrelated note, is there a pronunciation guide to FR characters anywhere? I have about 3 ways of saying Fzoul Chembryl's first name. I lean towards a silent "F" and say it like Zuul the Gatekeeper of Gozer from Ghostbusters. Trying to incorporate the "F" and make it a 2 syllable word sounds goofy any which way I try it.

Up next is The Lost Library of Cormanthyr.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2016 :  20:35:04  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Confession - I've never read Trial of Cyric the Mad or the other one after the Avatar trilogy. I really don't like Gods as characters in books, but I suppose for the sake of Realms knowledge I should one day. The Avatar trilogy is terribly written, but such a key point of Realms history that you kind of have to read it. I never felt the compulsion to read the two other books about Cyric and the other new gods. (Finder gets a pass along with Mystra, Cyric and Kelemvor for acting more like people than gods.)

On the Avatar trilogy, I remember being a child reading that book and wondering...what the hell..why did Midnight go back for the halfling but not Kelemvor at the end of the book? Wasn't he a little more close to Midnight than Sneakabout? I guess this book fixed all that by making him a god or whatever. UGh. I should read it.

I always pronounced it "Fah-Zool" with my fellow D&D friends, but I think you're right it probably should be a combo F-Z sound, rather than deliberate two syllables. I don't like a silent F completely though...


Edited by - Seravin on 31 Aug 2016 20:35:49
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