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Paran
Acolyte
18 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2015 : 23:11:15
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| Wonder what the series would have been like without Bob. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2015 : 04:11:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
[quote]Originally posted by Paran
Gromph pissing himself feels natural and makes him ''human''. Or rather feel like a rational person would act in such a situation. If he suddenly went ''Aha! Time to own Demogorgon with my magic lazers *pew pew pew*'' it would feel artificial and rather stupid.
Strongest evur characters are boring. Going through struggles makes them interesting.
[/quote
Pissing your pants and fearlessly shooting magic lazers are two opposing extremes. I think Gromph should have shown some signs of fear and certainty surprise but to the extreme that he did..?
You have one of the most powerful drow wizards to walk the face of Fearun who in his extremly long life time has probably been to the Abyss on occasion, probably communed with Demon Lords before.
When Telamont Tanthul summoned Mephistopheles he was nowhere near pissing his pants when his protective circle was weakening.
Mephisto doesn't have that same built in ability. One of Demogorgons natural abilities is his gaze attacks, automatic and free action combination of his choice of Beguiling/Hypnotizing/Crazy Insanity gaze. It has some silly high Will roll to negate
Not to mention, Telamont was hiding with a score of his more trusted Archwizards, his son, and Hadhrune, fully prepared and warded.
To put in perspective the power there. Hadhrune is a level 20CR, a mere 3 levels below Gromph's level 23CR. Brennus Tanthul is a level 26CR Prince of Shade, and Telamont himself is a max level Archmage, Max level Shadow Adept and Level 20 Wizard on top of that. Nearer to level 40 than Gromph is to level 30
Elminster himself confided that Telamont would beat him in a straight up Spell duel in Spellstorm.
And they caught Mephisto by surprise. Trapped him in fact.
Gromph was caught with his pants down, completely surprised against one of the most powerful non-divine entities in the DnD universe.
Comparing Telamont with 7 arcanists by his side, all of whom are close to or Stronger than Gromph, surprising an archdevil, and Gromph being caught flat footed by a being even stronger than Mephistopheles is silly.
Using in game stats to argue your point is equally silly. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2015 : 05:05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
Where is that story from?
Short story called "Fires of Narbondel" in Realms of the underdark.
Pretty neat Short story to be honest. Child Drizzt meets the avatar of Lolth lol.
but most of the story centered on Zaknafein meeting Jalynfein the Spider mage. The most powerful hidden wizard in Menzoberanzan.
The story was written by Mark Anthony, during a time Bob and TSR were having conflicts. Drizzt belonged to TSR, so effectively, they decided since Bob didn't come to an agreement with them, They would let others write Drizzt books.
An entire Novel actually exists with Drizzt written not by Bob, but was never released and has been buried since Bob came back. Which is kind of a shame since a non-Canon release would get bought lol. Granted, it has every chance to be as horrid as Entreri in the double diamond non-canon series, where he lost an arm.
Bob referencing "Lost the use of an arm" in Legacy then never mentioning it again was classic :p
Hmm. I'm pretty sure I have that book, and the name of the story sounds familiar, but not the story itself. Thanks. I'll look for it. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2015 : 19:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
[quote]Originally posted by Paran
Gromph pissing himself feels natural and makes him ''human''. Or rather feel like a rational person would act in such a situation. If he suddenly went ''Aha! Time to own Demogorgon with my magic lazers *pew pew pew*'' it would feel artificial and rather stupid.
Strongest evur characters are boring. Going through struggles makes them interesting.
[/quote
Pissing your pants and fearlessly shooting magic lazers are two opposing extremes. I think Gromph should have shown some signs of fear and certainty surprise but to the extreme that he did..?
You have one of the most powerful drow wizards to walk the face of Fearun who in his extremly long life time has probably been to the Abyss on occasion, probably communed with Demon Lords before.
When Telamont Tanthul summoned Mephistopheles he was nowhere near pissing his pants when his protective circle was weakening.
Mephisto doesn't have that same built in ability. One of Demogorgons natural abilities is his gaze attacks, automatic and free action combination of his choice of Beguiling/Hypnotizing/Crazy Insanity gaze. It has some silly high Will roll to negate
Not to mention, Telamont was hiding with a score of his more trusted Archwizards, his son, and Hadhrune, fully prepared and warded.
To put in perspective the power there. Hadhrune is a level 20CR, a mere 3 levels below Gromph's level 23CR. Brennus Tanthul is a level 26CR Prince of Shade, and Telamont himself is a max level Archmage, Max level Shadow Adept and Level 20 Wizard on top of that. Nearer to level 40 than Gromph is to level 30
Elminster himself confided that Telamont would beat him in a straight up Spell duel in Spellstorm.
And they caught Mephisto by surprise. Trapped him in fact.
Gromph was caught with his pants down, completely surprised against one of the most powerful non-divine entities in the DnD universe.
Comparing Telamont with 7 arcanists by his side, all of whom are close to or Stronger than Gromph, surprising an archdevil, and Gromph being caught flat footed by a being even stronger than Mephistopheles is silly.
Using in game stats to argue your point is equally silly.
Its shared world fiction. The in game mechanics are the baseline to which the world functions. And the relative stats given out in sourcebooks and other sources from WOTC are the baseline to which you judge and use characters in books or games. It is not a "Slam the hammer own" iron clad rule, but it is a guideline authors are supposed to respect.
And Bob's portrayal of Gromph Baerne tearing at his eyes once the insanity gaze of Demogorgon hit him unexpectedly(and Kimmuriel doing the same once he saw) was dead on accurate.
Gromph Baerne is a powerful wizard, but middle of the pack compared the powerful NPC's of the realm. And if you asked any DnD fan on a non-Salvatore forum, they are going to say the same thing. Heck, even Bob alludes to as much if you look at it.
For whatever reason, fans are usually surprised when they find out Alustriel could likely wipe the floor with Gromph too. Mostly because of how he portrayed her.
I know it assaults your sensibilities because you are a bob brand guy. "Every character Salvatore brand is teh uberest most powerful" and you love to throw lines around like "but in this book, Bob said x is the uberest most powerful in teh world, so it must be so" and toot Cadderly/Kane's horn as most powerful Cleric and Monk in the multiverse. But they are not, and because a single author portrays multiple characters as very perfect does not somehow give them unique world crushing power against the others in the realm.
So while I like Bob's books as much as the next guy, it gets frankly, quite old after awhile to see "Bob brand" fans trying to elevate his characters above all others. I respect that you like his work. I do too. But if people want to toot regarding his characters being the best, and start threads like "Most powerful weapon in the realms" and then poll list 10 Bob Brand weapons and weaveshear just so there is one non-bob option, go to Bob's forum and do it.
You will like it over there more and you can talk to him yourself. Although he rarely makes an appearance, and if you bring up things like Gromph vs Demogorgon in his interactive thread, he is going to shut you down quick or completely ignore you. He hates that junk more than anyone and it played a big factor in him posting less.
You will notice differences on his forum. When Robillard killed Greeth, most of his forum talked about how clever it was of him to amplify lightning in the water. On this forum, there were dozens of deadpan "WTF? liches are 100% immune to electricity....his editor is AWFUL for not catching that"
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Edited by - Firestorm on 21 Oct 2015 20:05:33 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 02:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Its shared world fiction. The in game mechanics are the baseline to which the world functions. And the relative stats given out in sourcebooks and other sources from WOTC are the baseline to which you judge and use characters in books or games. It is not a "Slam the hammer own" iron clad rule, but it is a guideline authors are supposed to respect.
And Bob's portrayal of Gromph Baerne tearing at his eyes once the insanity gaze of Demogorgon hit him unexpectedly(and Kimmuriel doing the same once he saw) was dead on accurate.
Gromph Baerne is a powerful wizard, but middle of the pack compared the powerful NPC's of the realm. And if you asked any DnD fan on a non-Salvatore forum, they are going to say the same thing. Heck, even Bob alludes to as much if you look at it.
For whatever reason, fans are usually surprised when they find out Alustriel could likely wipe the floor with Gromph too. Mostly because of how he portrayed her.
I know it assaults your sensibilities because you are a bob brand guy. "Every character Salvatore brand is teh uberest most powerful" and you love to throw lines around like "but in this book, Bob said x is the uberest most powerful in teh world, so it must be so" and toot Cadderly/Kane's horn as most powerful Cleric and Monk in the multiverse. But they are not, and because a single author portrays multiple characters as very perfect does not somehow give them unique world crushing power against the others in the realm.
I'm no more a "BOB brand guy" than you are an elitist RPG fanatic. Of course its not my place to label you as such, since I don't know you personally...
quote:
So while I like Bob's books as much as the next guy, it gets frankly, quite old after awhile to see "Bob brand" fans trying to elevate his characters above all others. I respect that you like his work. I do too. But if people want to toot regarding his characters being the best, and start threads like "Most powerful weapon in the realms" and then poll list 10 Bob Brand weapons and weaveshear just so there is one non-bob option, go to Bob's forum and do it.
I'm not cool with the way you show your "respect" as it doesn't ring authentic. No where did I say Gromph is "the best" , I think he is certainly one of the best. You disagree, and made a good argument for your opinion, it's unfortunate you couldn't do it in a way that conveyed your "respect" for my opinion. I apologize for my "silly" opinion sir. I'll defer to your grander cognitive abilities. 
quote:
You will like it over there more and you can talk to him yourself. Although he rarely makes an appearance, and if you bring up things like Gromph vs Demogorgon in his interactive thread, he is going to shut you down quick or completely ignore you. He hates that junk more than anyone and it played a big factor in him posting less.
You will notice differences on his forum. When Robillard killed Greeth, most of his forum talked about how clever it was of him to amplify lightning in the water. On this forum, there were dozens of deadpan "WTF? liches are 100% immune to electricity....his editor is AWFUL for not catching that"
PREACH!  |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 03:07:40
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I'm no more a "BOB brand guy" than you are an elitist RPG fanatic. Of course its not my place to label you as such, since I don't know you personally...
I'm not cool with the way you show your "respect" as it doesn't ring authentic. No where did I say Gromph is "the best" , I think he is certainly one of the best. You disagree, and made a good argument for your opinion, it's unfortunate you couldn't do it in a way that conveyed your "respect" for my opinion. I apologize for my "silly" opinion sir. I'll defer to your grander cognitive abilities.
PREACH!
If I got you mixed up with someone else, I apologize. There may be another Jordan(or name similar to it) on this forum and I just assumed it was the same guy.
There was a guy named Jordan a few years back that every single damn topic was "Kane is the most powerful Monk in the realms", and "Cadderly is easily more powerful than Elminster. and the guy flat out admitted he only read Bob's books and said most other realms books he read were "boring" compared to Bob, so I took an instant dislike to him. Turned into many posters telling him No kane isn't and no Cadderly isn't, and he would argue for days.
For just a minute there, your saying Gromph is likely one of the top 10 made me assume you were him. The name is similar. Again, sorry if it is not you.
In Canon(Statbooks are canon) and in writing in novels, Gromph is about as powerful as a Zulkir like Nevron and portrayed as such. Telamont is more of an equal match for Szass Tam type guy, and he had help stronger then Gromph with him at the time and caught the Archdevil by surprise instead of vice versa.
And Demogorgon is basically the Asmodeus of Demon Princes. Asmodeus makes Mephisto crap his pants and do his bidding. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 13:59:49
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| Kind of going on a tangent, but who is the most powerful monk in the realms? I rolled my eyes at the latest appearance of Kane, where he's not only the Grand Master of Flowers, but also has apparently transcended death itself. ._. Since I'd already nearly cracked my head open banging it against the wall over how ridiculously Mary Sue and overpowered Catti-Brie has gotten, I just let out a long sigh at Kane and moved on. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 21:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Kind of going on a tangent, but who is the most powerful monk in the realms? I rolled my eyes at the latest appearance of Kane, where he's not only the Grand Master of Flowers, but also has apparently transcended death itself. ._. Since I'd already nearly cracked my head open banging it against the wall over how ridiculously Mary Sue and overpowered Catti-Brie has gotten, I just let out a long sigh at Kane and moved on.
Careful, you are not allowed to ask "silly" questions like that |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 21:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I'm no more a "BOB brand guy" than you are an elitist RPG fanatic. Of course its not my place to label you as such, since I don't know you personally...
I'm not cool with the way you show your "respect" as it doesn't ring authentic. No where did I say Gromph is "the best" , I think he is certainly one of the best. You disagree, and made a good argument for your opinion, it's unfortunate you couldn't do it in a way that conveyed your "respect" for my opinion. I apologize for my "silly" opinion sir. I'll defer to your grander cognitive abilities.
PREACH!
If I got you mixed up with someone else, I apologize. There may be another Jordan(or name similar to it) on this forum and I just assumed it was the same guy.
There was a guy named Jordan a few years back that every single damn topic was "Kane is the most powerful Monk in the realms", and "Cadderly is easily more powerful than Elminster. and the guy flat out admitted he only read Bob's books and said most other realms books he read were "boring" compared to Bob, so I took an instant dislike to him. Turned into many posters telling him No kane isn't and no Cadderly isn't, and he would argue for days.
For just a minute there, your saying Gromph is likely one of the top 10 made me assume you were him. The name is similar. Again, sorry if it is not you.
In Canon(Statbooks are canon) and in writing in novels, Gromph is about as powerful as a Zulkir like Nevron and portrayed as such. Telamont is more of an equal match for Szass Tam type guy, and he had help stronger then Gromph with him at the time and caught the Archdevil by surprise instead of vice versa.
And Demogorgon is basically the Asmodeus of Demon Princes. Asmodeus makes Mephisto crap his pants and do his bidding.
Wow you took the time out to look up my posts just to backup argument on a fantasy realms forum...Glad to know you are keeping score. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 21:54:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Kind of going on a tangent, but who is the most powerful monk in the realms? I rolled my eyes at the latest appearance of Kane, where he's not only the Grand Master of Flowers, but also has apparently transcended death itself. ._. Since I'd already nearly cracked my head open banging it against the wall over how ridiculously Mary Sue and overpowered Catti-Brie has gotten, I just let out a long sigh at Kane and moved on.
I think who is the most powerful in any class is subjective. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2015 : 01:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I'm no more a "BOB brand guy" than you are an elitist RPG fanatic. Of course its not my place to label you as such, since I don't know you personally...
I'm not cool with the way you show your "respect" as it doesn't ring authentic. No where did I say Gromph is "the best" , I think he is certainly one of the best. You disagree, and made a good argument for your opinion, it's unfortunate you couldn't do it in a way that conveyed your "respect" for my opinion. I apologize for my "silly" opinion sir. I'll defer to your grander cognitive abilities.
PREACH!
If I got you mixed up with someone else, I apologize. There may be another Jordan(or name similar to it) on this forum and I just assumed it was the same guy.
There was a guy named Jordan a few years back that every single damn topic was "Kane is the most powerful Monk in the realms", and "Cadderly is easily more powerful than Elminster. and the guy flat out admitted he only read Bob's books and said most other realms books he read were "boring" compared to Bob, so I took an instant dislike to him. Turned into many posters telling him No kane isn't and no Cadderly isn't, and he would argue for days.
For just a minute there, your saying Gromph is likely one of the top 10 made me assume you were him. The name is similar. Again, sorry if it is not you.
In Canon(Statbooks are canon) and in writing in novels, Gromph is about as powerful as a Zulkir like Nevron and portrayed as such. Telamont is more of an equal match for Szass Tam type guy, and he had help stronger then Gromph with him at the time and caught the Archdevil by surprise instead of vice versa.
And Demogorgon is basically the Asmodeus of Demon Princes. Asmodeus makes Mephisto crap his pants and do his bidding.
Wow you took the time out to look up my posts just to backup argument on a fantasy realms forum...Glad to know you are keeping score.
Wait, so it is you?
+5 plot armor |
Edited by - Firestorm on 23 Oct 2015 01:41:04 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2015 : 02:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I'm no more a "BOB brand guy" than you are an elitist RPG fanatic. Of course its not my place to label you as such, since I don't know you personally...
I'm not cool with the way you show your "respect" as it doesn't ring authentic. No where did I say Gromph is "the best" , I think he is certainly one of the best. You disagree, and made a good argument for your opinion, it's unfortunate you couldn't do it in a way that conveyed your "respect" for my opinion. I apologize for my "silly" opinion sir. I'll defer to your grander cognitive abilities.
PREACH!
If I got you mixed up with someone else, I apologize. There may be another Jordan(or name similar to it) on this forum and I just assumed it was the same guy.
There was a guy named Jordan a few years back that every single damn topic was "Kane is the most powerful Monk in the realms", and "Cadderly is easily more powerful than Elminster. and the guy flat out admitted he only read Bob's books and said most other realms books he read were "boring" compared to Bob, so I took an instant dislike to him. Turned into many posters telling him No kane isn't and no Cadderly isn't, and he would argue for days.
For just a minute there, your saying Gromph is likely one of the top 10 made me assume you were him. The name is similar. Again, sorry if it is not you.
In Canon(Statbooks are canon) and in writing in novels, Gromph is about as powerful as a Zulkir like Nevron and portrayed as such. Telamont is more of an equal match for Szass Tam type guy, and he had help stronger then Gromph with him at the time and caught the Archdevil by surprise instead of vice versa.
And Demogorgon is basically the Asmodeus of Demon Princes. Asmodeus makes Mephisto crap his pants and do his bidding.
Wow you took the time out to look up my posts just to backup argument on a fantasy realms forum...Glad to know you are keeping score.
Wait, so it is you?
+5 plot armor
You can use the search feature to vet my statements out if it matters that much to you. I personally could care less about someone else's opinion here, certainly not enough to cause me to dislike a poster. I suggest you work on your people skills. Good day sir. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2015 : 02:25:25
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| I think we should all care about others' opinions, if not as individual scribes, then at least as fellow Realms fans. I mean, that's why we're here. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2015 : 09:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I'm no more a "BOB brand guy" than you are an elitist RPG fanatic. Of course its not my place to label you as such, since I don't know you personally...
I'm not cool with the way you show your "respect" as it doesn't ring authentic. No where did I say Gromph is "the best" , I think he is certainly one of the best. You disagree, and made a good argument for your opinion, it's unfortunate you couldn't do it in a way that conveyed your "respect" for my opinion. I apologize for my "silly" opinion sir. I'll defer to your grander cognitive abilities.
PREACH!
If I got you mixed up with someone else, I apologize. There may be another Jordan(or name similar to it) on this forum and I just assumed it was the same guy.
There was a guy named Jordan a few years back that every single damn topic was "Kane is the most powerful Monk in the realms", and "Cadderly is easily more powerful than Elminster. and the guy flat out admitted he only read Bob's books and said most other realms books he read were "boring" compared to Bob, so I took an instant dislike to him. Turned into many posters telling him No kane isn't and no Cadderly isn't, and he would argue for days.
For just a minute there, your saying Gromph is likely one of the top 10 made me assume you were him. The name is similar. Again, sorry if it is not you.
In Canon(Statbooks are canon) and in writing in novels, Gromph is about as powerful as a Zulkir like Nevron and portrayed as such. Telamont is more of an equal match for Szass Tam type guy, and he had help stronger then Gromph with him at the time and caught the Archdevil by surprise instead of vice versa.
And Demogorgon is basically the Asmodeus of Demon Princes. Asmodeus makes Mephisto crap his pants and do his bidding.
Wow you took the time out to look up my posts just to backup argument on a fantasy realms forum...Glad to know you are keeping score.
Wait, so it is you?
+5 plot armor
You can use the search feature to vet my statements out if it matters that much to you. I personally could care less about someone else's opinion here, certainly not enough to cause me to dislike a poster. I suggest you work on your people skills. Good day sir.
Sorry. I didn't. That was all on memory.
I was actually apologizing because I thought I was picking on the wrong person until you said that |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2015 : 04:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Kind of going on a tangent, but who is the most powerful monk in the realms? I rolled my eyes at the latest appearance of Kane, where he's not only the Grand Master of Flowers, but also has apparently transcended death itself. ._. Since I'd already nearly cracked my head open banging it against the wall over how ridiculously Mary Sue and overpowered Catti-Brie has gotten, I just let out a long sigh at Kane and moved on.
Kane was always written as extremely powerful, going back to the Bloodstone Modules where his adventuring band (led by Gareth Dragonsbane, who is arguably more powerful) killing Zhengyi the Witch King, laying the smack down on Orcus, and taking out an avatar of Tiamat.
Kane's power in the novels was consistent with his initial conception, and every power he used was consistent with an epic level monk. High level monks are supposed to be godly in FR. Did you read the Haunted Lands trilogy? Malark Springhill was probably more powerful than Kane. He could heal mortal wounds within seconds just by meditating. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2015 : 05:36:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Kind of going on a tangent, but who is the most powerful monk in the realms? I rolled my eyes at the latest appearance of Kane, where he's not only the Grand Master of Flowers, but also has apparently transcended death itself. ._. Since I'd already nearly cracked my head open banging it against the wall over how ridiculously Mary Sue and overpowered Catti-Brie has gotten, I just let out a long sigh at Kane and moved on.
Kane was always written as extremely powerful, going back to the Bloodstone Modules where his adventuring band (led by Gareth Dragonsbane, who is arguably more powerful) killing Zhengyi the Witch King, laying the smack down on Orcus, and taking out an avatar of Tiamat.
Kane's power in the novels was consistent with his initial conception, and every power he used was consistent with an epic level monk. High level monks are supposed to be godly in FR. Did you read the Haunted Lands trilogy? Malark Springhill was probably more powerful than Kane. He could heal mortal wounds within seconds just by meditating.
So did Gareth actually "slay" Orcus? |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1309 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2015 : 14:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Kind of going on a tangent, but who is the most powerful monk in the realms? I rolled my eyes at the latest appearance of Kane, where he's not only the Grand Master of Flowers, but also has apparently transcended death itself. ._. Since I'd already nearly cracked my head open banging it against the wall over how ridiculously Mary Sue and overpowered Catti-Brie has gotten, I just let out a long sigh at Kane and moved on.
Kane was always written as extremely powerful, going back to the Bloodstone Modules where his adventuring band (led by Gareth Dragonsbane, who is arguably more powerful) killing Zhengyi the Witch King, laying the smack down on Orcus, and taking out an avatar of Tiamat.
Kane's power in the novels was consistent with his initial conception, and every power he used was consistent with an epic level monk. High level monks are supposed to be godly in FR. Did you read the Haunted Lands trilogy? Malark Springhill was probably more powerful than Kane. He could heal mortal wounds within seconds just by meditating.
So did Gareth actually "slay" Orcus?
No, Gareth and his group stole Orcus' wand while he was distracted and destroyed the wand with the help of Bahamut. Orcus was never directly confronted AFAIK. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2015 : 20:33:06
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I REALLY do not like the demon naming. I'm not a balor I'm THE Balor... THE marilith, etc. Lame. Must have something to do with the new edition's take on demons.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2015 : 23:12:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I REALLY do not like the demon naming. I'm not a balor I'm THE Balor... THE marilith, etc. Lame. Must have something to do with the new edition's take on demons.
Well, it's a very oldschool D&D approach.
Back in OD&D balor was simply the name of one of the known type VI demons, and how many others of his kind existed and how they were called was unknown.
2e later named the whole species after the greatest of their kind, thus they all became known as balors.
Salvatore seems to threat the abyss again a lot smaller than we used to think of it during 2e-4e (may just be him or may be the official 5e take on the abyss), given that Gromph seems to be pretty sure that he actually knows every Nalfeshnee (aka type IV demon) in existance |
Edited by - Mirtek on 27 Oct 2015 23:13:02 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 17:25:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I REALLY do not like the demon naming. I'm not a balor I'm THE Balor... THE marilith, etc. Lame. Must have something to do with the new edition's take on demons.
Well, it's a very oldschool D&D approach.
Back in OD&D balor was simply the name of one of the known type VI demons, and how many others of his kind existed and how they were called was unknown.
2e later named the whole species after the greatest of their kind, thus they all became known as balors.
Salvatore seems to threat the abyss again a lot smaller than we used to think of it during 2e-4e (may just be him or may be the official 5e take on the abyss), given that Gromph seems to be pretty sure that he actually knows every Nalfeshnee (aka type IV demon) in existance
It would be fine if he left it unsaid - but its just so ridiculous to (on multiple occasions) have a demon be like - no no no I'm THE fill in the blank. Its like the reveals in the Princess Bride, which were deliberately ridiculous. I was waiting for marilith to say "I'm not left handed either"
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 17:31:43
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| I remember the old days and the original MM too, barely :P... back then there were 6 balors total - once the blood war became endless and infinite, this idea became dated. If they are going back to that, the whole D&D cosmology will need to be changed AGAIN. |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 19:34:58
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| I don't remember those days, but from all these comments I can only hope this is just Bob being Bob and not a huge shift. Having only a few of these devils just seems boring to me anyway. |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 12:42:07
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| Haven't finished the book yet but Doumwielle getting raped repeatedly bothers me. It worked as a plotpoint with Dahlia in the past but with Doumwiellemand repeatedly not so much. |
Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 16:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
Haven't finished the book yet but Doumwielle getting raped repeatedly bothers me. It worked as a plotpoint with Dahlia in the past but with Doumwiellemand repeatedly not so much.
I'll admit to being far more occupied with the plotting of Gromph, Jarlaxle, and Kimmuriel than anything else in the most recent book, but I don't remember that. I thought she ventured off willingly with Tiago. It wouldn't surprise me though, because the drow are the biggest society of perverts in Faerun. When they first captured Drizzt in Gauntlgrym, I remember them salivating at the thought of raping Dahlia. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 17:09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
Haven't finished the book yet but Doumwielle getting raped repeatedly bothers me. It worked as a plotpoint with Dahlia in the past but with Doumwiellemand repeatedly not so much.
I love Dahlia's storyline, and I've always thought she gets too much unnecessary heat. RAS fans cheer on Entreri (who became a remorseless killer because he was abused as a child) and Jarlaxle (who became a callous manipulator because he grew up in a wicked society). When Dahlia steals, kills, and manipulates people because she was abused as a child and grew up in Thay with no parents, it's the end of the world.
People always compare Dahlia to RAS's other characters and see her as less rational and clear thinking. Well DUH! Characters like Bruenor, Catti, Jarlaxle, Kimmuriel, Entreri, and even Drizzt are all much older than her comparatively.
When she threw Effron over the cliff (which was horrible), she was TWELVE!! I see fans hold that over her head all the time, but I'm not sure what reaction they expected in her situation. She was a 12 year old girl who watched her parents be murdered in front of her before she was raped. Her destroyed village was occupied by the Shadovar, so she was forced to live with the same invaders who killed her parents and destroyed her village. Plus, she was forced to carry the baby of her rapist to term. Even in Faerun, I doubt there is any magical spell that helps you come up with a good response to that.
Now as we see her in the novels, I believe she's in her 40s. Given the slow development of elves, she's still in adolescence. Thay may not be quite as evil as Menzoberranzan, but it's still an awful place for a teenager to grow up and learn values. So you're right that Dahlia's trauma made for compelling plot points, but it seems that most readers just complain about her character, rather than trying to find any depth in her story. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 17:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
Haven't finished the book yet but Doumwielle getting raped repeatedly bothers me. It worked as a plotpoint with Dahlia in the past but with Doumwiellemand repeatedly not so much.
I'll admit to being far more occupied with the plotting of Gromph, Jarlaxle, and Kimmuriel than anything else in the most recent book, but I don't remember that. I thought she ventured off willingly with Tiago. It wouldn't surprise me though, because the drow are the biggest society of perverts in Faerun. When they first captured Drizzt in Gauntlgrym, I remember them salivating at the thought of raping Dahlia.
Technically, not just Dahlia. It's likely that Artemis suffered his fair share at the hands of the priestesses of Lolth as well, and Berellip certainly didn't seem to mind the idea of having him again. It seemed like Drizzt was the only one free from such attentions. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 17:48:39
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quote:
I love Dahlia's storyline, and I've always thought she gets too much unnecessary heat. RAS fans cheer on Entreri (who became a remorseless killer because he was abused as a child) and Jarlaxle (who became a callous manipulator because he grew up in a wicked society). When Dahlia steals, kills, and manipulates people because she was abused as a child and grew up in Thay with no parents, it's the end of the world.
People always compare Dahlia to RAS's other characters and see her as less rational and clear thinking. Well DUH! Characters like Bruenor, Catti, Jarlaxle, Kimmuriel, Entreri, and even Drizzt are all much older than her comparatively.
When she threw Effron over the cliff (which was horrible), she was TWELVE!! I see fans hold that over her head all the time, but I'm not sure what reaction they expected in her situation. She was a 12 year old girl who watched her parents be murdered in front of her before she was raped. Her destroyed village was occupied by the Shadovar, so she was forced to live with the same invaders who killed her parents and destroyed her village. Plus, she was forced to carry the baby of her rapist to term. Even in Faerun, I doubt there is any magical spell that helps you come up with a good response to that.
Now as we see her in the novels, I believe she's in her 40s. Given the slow development of elves, she's still in adolescence. Thay may not be quite as evil as Menzoberranzan, but it's still an awful place for a teenager to grow up and learn values. So you're right that Dahlia's trauma made for compelling plot points, but it seems that most readers just complain about her character, rather than trying to find any depth in her story.
I agree with all that you've stated. I like Dahlia as well, moreso than any of Bob's other female characters in fact. I feel that she has more depth, dimension and relatability than all-around perfect characters like Catti-Brie. On the other hand, she isn't my favorite character of all time because she is petty. She was written that way and for that, I think we're supposed to dislike her.
Nonetheless, I do feel that the usage of rape is kinda overdone in Bob's writing. While it's plausible to me that Tiago would act the way he does to Doum'wielle, characters can develop dimensions and have a tortured mindset stemming from things other than rape.  I don't object to rape being used in writing anymore than I object to torture and/or decapitation (and other means of killing), but I just feel like, as the default go-to, it's kinda lame.
Edit: fixed emoticon. |
Edited by - sno4wy on 04 Nov 2015 17:49:51 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 18:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
Haven't finished the book yet but Doumwielle getting raped repeatedly bothers me. It worked as a plotpoint with Dahlia in the past but with Doumwiellemand repeatedly not so much.
I'll admit to being far more occupied with the plotting of Gromph, Jarlaxle, and Kimmuriel than anything else in the most recent book, but I don't remember that. I thought she ventured off willingly with Tiago. It wouldn't surprise me though, because the drow are the biggest society of perverts in Faerun. When they first captured Drizzt in Gauntlgrym, I remember them salivating at the thought of raping Dahlia.
She only willingly went with Tiago because she wanted the chance to kill him. I remember the repeated rapes. There wasn't much detail, but it was heavily implied. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 19:02:27
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After finishing the book, I am decidedly not a fan - there are WAY too many holes. Plus nothing about the book adds to Menzoberranzan, or the Underdark as a whole at all. The whole Matron Baenre sub-plot is ridiculous. Just resurrect her already, or better yet, don't kill her off in the first place 20 years ago (It never made any sense to me at all the she was not protected by the Cloak of Gaer spell - if the millennia old matron of the most powerful house of the most loyal city of Lloth isn't who is?)
Similarly, just bring back Oblodra already. The house who's demise was the central plot device so long ago is still at large (tortured in part, but still alive) - most likely because it was the only house RAS ever wrote that was significantly different from any other. Since pretty much the entire house died together, then the only conclusion one can draw from the Matron being alive in the Abyss is the rest could be as well somewhere offstage.
Gromph has officially become a stooge. Still capable of blasting everyone around him, but a stooge nonetheless.
The only interesting part of the book was the suggestion that FR might bring back psionic enchantments a'la Dark Sun - but that's all just b.s.
Anyone else long for the good ol' days when Demogorgon could make Lloth his biatch and she was just another powerful demon worshiped by a relatively sparsely populated species? The fixation D&D developed with Lloth has made her less and less interesting. Now apparently she is so powerful that she plots and messes around with the very nature of the multiverse(demons ability to enter the prime) by simply having a wizard cast a couple summoning spells. PLUS the other 5000 gods do nothing about her. More and more ridiculous.
Also hate the idea that sunlight is what keeps demons from the Prime Material Plane... that's just totally out of left field and pretty much equates demons to drow.
In short, FR writers need to stop messing with the big picture. You don't need to redefine the realms universe with every novel. RSA are bad, plain and simple. Surely the spellplague should have taught us that much. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 19:05:56
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| That's why I say the Drizzt books, while I love them, don't always seem in touch with what's going on in the Realms. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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First thoughts on Salvatore's Archmage
