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Southwest of the Darklake in the Upper and Middle Northdark lies a vast region known as the Labyrinth. Stretching well over 100 miles north to south and better than 50 miles east to west, the Labyrinth obstructs travel from Skullport and the other Underdark locales in the vicinity of Waterdeep to Gracklstugh, Menzoberranzan, and the rest of the Northdark.
The Labyrinth consists of a relatively small number of once- minor caves that were drastically expanded long ago by the delv- ing of countless tunnels and passages. The entire area is shot through with numerous rifts, so it is not uncommon for a tunnel to dead-end at a massive chasm, then continue on a few hundred feet up or down on the other side. Gigantic staircases wind around some of these chasms, but others—possibly more recent additions—offer no easy detours. Merchants bound for Skull- port, Gracklstugh, and other cities make use of a few of the more direct and well marked paths, but anyone straying from the known routes is likely to starve to death, hopelessly lost.
The Labyrinth is, unsurprisingly, renowned as minotaur ter- ritory. Fierce bands of these savage warriors would be bad enough, but most minotaur clans are led by baphitaurs—fiendish creatures that combine the worst characteristics of minotaurs and demons. Some time long ago, the minotaurs carved out a mighty realm here, but the savages that now occupy the Laby- rinth know nothing of their past.
Exiles and loners of all races find the quieter portions of the Labyrinth a good place to hide. As recently as fifty years ago, the exiled House Jaelre of Menzoberranzan held a small fief in the heart of this area. But the Jaelres are gone now, having forged portals that lead to their new home in the abandoned Elven Court.

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Originally posted by Brian R. James

You may be interested to know that I established a Minotaur kingdom in the Realms in my Dragon article Realmslore: Ironfang Keep. Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, we are talking about the Realms. If there isn't a human, or member of a human-looking race, is usually some mindless, savage monster to be killed.

I guess minotaurs had an ancient empire near Ammarindar (?), but angered some god and they lost it, as well as their intellectual abilities, or something like that. This is mentioned in some Drizzt novel, IIRC.

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Originally posted by Barastir

We have this wonderful thread discussing minotaurs in the Realms, and why they weren't explored in earlier editions (namely, because minotaurs were more a Dragonlance thing).

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Originally posted by keftiu

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, we are talking about the Realms. If there isn't a human, or member of a human-looking race, is usually some mindless, savage monster to be killed.

I guess minotaurs had an ancient empire near Ammarindar (?), but angered some god and they lost it, as well as their intellectual abilities, or something like that. This is mentioned in some Drizzt novel, IIRC.

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We sure sound like we agree on an awful lot Zeromaru.

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...The less intelligent players who demand to play monster characters regardless of obvious consequences will soon remove themselves from play in any event, for their own ineptness will serve to have players or monsters or traps finish them off.

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Originally posted by Seethyr

The Underdark from 3.5 has a little bit about a region known as the Labyrinth. Here’s a small excerpt...

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Southwest of the Darklake in the Upper and Middle Northdark lies a vast region known as the Labyrinth. Stretching well over 100 miles north to south and better than 50 miles east to west, the Labyrinth obstructs travel from Skullport and the other Underdark locales in the vicinity of Waterdeep to Gracklstugh, Menzoberranzan, and the rest of the Northdark.
The Labyrinth consists of a relatively small number of once- minor caves that were drastically expanded long ago by the delv- ing of countless tunnels and passages. The entire area is shot through with numerous rifts, so it is not uncommon for a tunnel to dead-end at a massive chasm, then continue on a few hundred feet up or down on the other side. Gigantic staircases wind around some of these chasms, but others—possibly more recent additions—offer no easy detours. Merchants bound for Skull- port, Gracklstugh, and other cities make use of a few of the more direct and well marked paths, but anyone straying from the known routes is likely to starve to death, hopelessly lost.
The Labyrinth is, unsurprisingly, renowned as minotaur ter- ritory. Fierce bands of these savage warriors would be bad enough, but most minotaur clans are led by baphitaurs—fiendish creatures that combine the worst characteristics of minotaurs and demons. Some time long ago, the minotaurs carved out a mighty realm here, but the savages that now occupy the Laby- rinth know nothing of their past.
Exiles and loners of all races find the quieter portions of the Labyrinth a good place to hide. As recently as fifty years ago, the exiled House Jaelre of Menzoberranzan held a small fief in the heart of this area. But the Jaelres are gone now, having forged portals that lead to their new home in the abandoned Elven Court.

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I've never read a quote from E.G.G. about anyone playing a non-human as being unintelligent. Where did you find that?

EDIT

The only thing I can think of is on page 21 of the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide where he is talking about playing Monsters...if that is what you are referencing...and even here he didn't say unintelligent; but instead says:

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...The less intelligent players who demand to play monster characters regardless of obvious consequences will soon remove themselves from play in any event, for their own ineptness will serve to have players or monsters or traps finish them off.

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He isn't saying at all that people who play any non-human character is unintelligent.

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

You are taking it out of context, he isn't saying "non-human characters" at all. He is saying people that want to play MONSTERS like dragons, demons and so on.

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Originally posted by keftiu

Curious to hear anything about them in the setting, as I’ve never come across them. Bonus points if they aren’t all treated as slavering monsters to be killed.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, we are talking about the Realms. If there isn't a human, or member of a human-looking race, is usually some mindless, savage monster to be killed.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

That is still pretty rude and arrogant on his part.
Before I read that, I thought Gygax was cool.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

You are taking it out of context, he isn't saying "non-human characters" at all. He is saying people that want to play MONSTERS like dragons, demons and so on.

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Or minotaurs, as we are talking about it. They started as monsters, IIRC.

I guess you're seeing that statement in a more positive light that I would. And there are better ways to "warn" someone without saying they would be "less intelligent" if they don't do stuff the way you wanted or are going to fail because of "their own ineptitude".

Anyways, I'm going to leave it at that. Better to avoid any edition warring.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, I can post the whole topic here, but suffice to say that Gygax was indeed suggesting that people would only play humans, because they were the "sun" guiding the other races and stuff. The fact that he puts level caps to any other race in the game, while humans can level without limits, helps to support the idea that they wanted you to play only humans.

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I’m not “edition warring” here...just saying only this: you’re misrepresenting something someone said.

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On occasion one player or another will evidence a strong desire to operate
as a monster, conceiving a playable character as a strong demon, a devil,
a dragon, or one of the most powerful sort of undead creatures. This is
done principally because the player sees the desired monster character as
superior to his or her peers and likely to provide a dominant role for him or
her in the campaign. A moment of reflection will bring them to the un-
alterable conclusion that the game is heavily weighted towards mankind.

ADVANCED D&D is unquestionably "humanocentric", with demi-humans,
semi-humans, and humanoids in various orbits around the sun of
humanity. Men are the worst monsters, particularly high level characters
such as clerics, fighters, and magic-users - whether singly, in small
groups, or in large companies. The ultra-powerful beings of other planes
are more fearsome - the 3 D's of demi-gods, demons, and devils are
enough to strike fear into most characters, let alone when the very gods
themselves are brought into consideration. Yet, there is a point where the
well-equipped, high-level party of adventurers can challenge a demon
prince, an arch-devil, or a demi-god. While there might well be some near
or part humans with the group so doing, it is certain that the leaders will be
human. In co-operation men bring ruin upon monsterdom, for they have
no upper limits as to level or acquired power from spells or items.

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