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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe

185 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2004 :  03:42:01  Show Profile  Visit Senbar Flay's Homepage Send Senbar Flay a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have looked into the group known as the Cult of the Dragon and read they are actual fanatical followers of an old arccmages ideas about dragons and some such. Bu I haven't been able to find any info on what Sammaster actually predicts will come to pass. any ingo would be aprreciated

Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein

Wood Elf Ranger
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Posted - 05 May 2004 :  03:59:03  Show Profile  Visit Wood Elf Ranger's Homepage Send Wood Elf Ranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I can remember off the top of my head the main prophecy that the Cult of the Dragon grabbed onto was that the Dracoliches of Faerun would eventually bring around its destruction. They took this to heart and are helping it along by making more dracoliches and such. Hope thats what you were asking for

~Lee N.

"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 05 May 2004 :  06:02:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just flipped thru The Cult of the Dragon, a 2E source about Sammaster and the Cult. I did not see any prophecies in there, though it does say he retranslated many existing prophecies. It is from one of these mistranslations that the Cult arose.

Maglas, a seer and oracle, wrote in his book Chronicle of Years to Come:

quote:
"And naught will be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire, and..."


Ol' Sammy translated it to:

quote:
"And naught will be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers. But the dead dragons shall rule the world entire, and..."


And that was enough to set Sammy down the path of creating his first dracolich...

The above info comes from page 16 of The Cult of the Dragon.

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Wood Elf Ranger
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Posted - 05 May 2004 :  06:54:13  Show Profile  Visit Wood Elf Ranger's Homepage Send Wood Elf Ranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Origionally from Lords of Darkness p.18
In the pages of Maglas's Chronicle of the Years to Come Sammaster discovered a cryptic prophecy that he believed predicted that undead dragons would eventually rule the world. Thus inspired the irrational archmage gathered a band of followers and persuaded them that his fore telling of the future was accurate. In 902 DR the "Cult of the Dragon" created its first dracolich, using necromantic formulas that Sammaster inscribed in his magnum opus, Tome of the Dragon. Sammaster eventually died--or, as some Cult members believe, became a lich and disappeared. Today, the inheritors of his terrible knowledge continue to carry out his legacy.


Theres a lot more about the cult in Lords of Darkness but thats about it on Sammasters predictions.

~Lee N.

"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe

185 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2004 :  13:11:11  Show Profile  Visit Senbar Flay's Homepage Send Senbar Flay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks a lot at least i know what he is talking about.

Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6642 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2004 :  13:47:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And that was enough to set Sammy down the path of creating his first dracolich...




Wooly Rupert is exactly right but I'd probably qualify the above statement by saying that Sammaster created the first Cult of the Dragon dracolich (Shargrailer in 902DR). The write-up of Myrkul in Faiths & Avatars seems to indicate that dracolichs have been around for a lot longer than 400 or so years and Steven Schend in his Fall of Myth Drannor product mentions a dracolich (The Exile's War, p.28) that obviously existed in 713-ishDR. So it would appear that the dracolich process existed prior to Sammaster and the Cult (maybe a secret ritual of Myrkul ...) but became much more widespread after his embracing of it. Just a thought.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 05 May 2004 :  16:24:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And that was enough to set Sammy down the path of creating his first dracolich...




Wooly Rupert is exactly right but I'd probably qualify the above statement by saying that Sammaster created the first Cult of the Dragon dracolich (Shargrailer in 902DR). The write-up of Myrkul in Faiths & Avatars seems to indicate that dracolichs have been around for a lot longer than 400 or so years and Steven Schend in his Fall of Myth Drannor product mentions a dracolich (The Exile's War, p.28) that obviously existed in 713-ishDR. So it would appear that the dracolich process existed prior to Sammaster and the Cult (maybe a secret ritual of Myrkul ...) but became much more widespread after his embracing of it. Just a thought.

-- George Krashos




Indeed. That's why I specified "his first dracolich." Before I was banned on the WotC forums, someone pointed out that Talos had apparently created a dracolich long before Sammaster did. I'm not sure of the actual date of that ('twas in the very beginning of the Druidhome Trilogy, as I recall), but I figured I'd not give Sammy credit for inventing that process.

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ericlboyd
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2066 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2004 :  18:13:09  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Sammaster did NOT create the first dracolich. (Of course, we have at least 3 examples proving he didn't, but ignoring that ...)

Alaundo might have said that undead dragons would rule the world. That sort of suggests that such a concept already exists and that Sammaster simply read that and decided to accelerate their takeover.

All that said, I would need to doublecheck Dragon #110, Ed's original Cult of the Dragon article, to see if he suggests otherwise.

--Eric

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Sarta
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Posted - 06 May 2004 :  03:14:51  Show Profile Send Sarta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not to mention other sorts of undead dragons.

[evil DM mode]Skeletal dragons are a great way of scaring the hell out of a party of 7th level characters thinking they are facing down a dracolich.[/evil DM mode]

I kind of like the idea of Sammaster reverse engineering dracolich creation.

Sarta

Edited by - Sarta on 06 May 2004 03:15:47
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Wood Elf Ranger
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Posted - 06 May 2004 :  04:22:26  Show Profile  Visit Wood Elf Ranger's Homepage Send Wood Elf Ranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Alaundo might have said that undead dragons would rule the world. That sort of suggests that such a concept already exists and that Sammaster simply read that and decided to accelerate their takeover.
--Eric

Alaundo?!! I refuse to believe our kindly headmaster had anything to do with undead dragons

~Lee N.

"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU
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Alaundo
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Posted - 06 May 2004 :  08:31:57  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage Send Alaundo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Alaundo might have said that undead dragons would rule the world. That sort of suggests that such a concept already exists and that Sammaster simply read that and decided to accelerate their takeover.
--Eric

Alaundo?!! I refuse to believe our kindly headmaster had anything to do with undead dragons



Well met

Oh of course I would ne'er utter such a thing. Oh, whats this dusty old scroll....ahh, my pennings from days of old Well, look what it says here!

Alaundo
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 06 May 2004 :  13:44:55  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alaundo,

Look how much trouble a simple typo can cause ...

:-)

--Eric

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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe

USA
627 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2004 :  15:05:42  Show Profile  Visit Wood Elf Ranger's Homepage Send Wood Elf Ranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hehe I was just teasing. You did mean Maglas when you wrote that did you not Eric? I sure hope so otherwise I'm really confused

~Lee N.

"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU
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chosenofvelsharoon
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Posted - 16 Jun 2004 :  01:34:53  Show Profile  Visit chosenofvelsharoon's Homepage Send chosenofvelsharoon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sammaster mistakenly translated "chronicle of years to come" by maglas. he wrote "and naught will be left, save shattered thrones with no rulers. But the dead dragons will rule the world entire, and ..." instead of "and nought will be left, save shattered throne with no rulers but the dead. Dragons will rule the world entire, ..."

this is in the ad&d supplement "cult of the dragon" by dale donovan (tsr9547)
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Dargoth
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Australia
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Posted - 16 Jun 2004 :  02:26:37  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And that was enough to set Sammy down the path of creating his first dracolich...




Wooly Rupert is exactly right but I'd probably qualify the above statement by saying that Sammaster created the first Cult of the Dragon dracolich (Shargrailer in 902DR). The write-up of Myrkul in Faiths & Avatars seems to indicate that dracolichs have been around for a lot longer than 400 or so years and Steven Schend in his Fall of Myth Drannor product mentions a dracolich (The Exile's War, p.28) that obviously existed in 713-ishDR. So it would appear that the dracolich process existed prior to Sammaster and the Cult (maybe a secret ritual of Myrkul ...) but became much more widespread after his embracing of it. Just a thought.

-- George Krashos




Interestingly enough Chardansearavitorol the Black Dragon Dracolich in Eric Boyds Eye of Mykrul module became a Dracolich around 922DR.

Chardansearavitorol has a rather close relationship with the Church of Mykrul

To quote from Erics module

"In truth the very old Black Dragon had heeded the entreaties of Strongor Bonebag, a charismatic Priest of Mykrul with ties to the burheoning Cult of the Dragon and had been transformed into a Dracolich"

So this would make Chardansearavitorol one of the first Dracolichs only 20 year after Sammaster created the first "Cult Dracolich"

Strongor Bonebag may well be one of the founding members of the cult and if thats the case then there has likely been a tie between the Cult and the Church of Mykrul since the begining.

Added to this we know that Sammaster didnt create Dracolichs straight away, Richard Lee Byers latest novel shows that he experimented with other forms of Undead Dragons before decided to use Dracolichs, its also quite possiable that Sammaster may not have been the sole founder of the Cult of the Dragon it may well have been jointly founded between Sammaster and the Church of Mykrul (With the CoM kicking in the recipe for creating Dracolichs)

Coments Eric?

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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2004 :  17:42:53  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well met!

quote:
Originally posted by chosenofvelsharoon

sammaster mistakenly translated "chronicle of years to come" by maglas. he wrote "and naught will be left, save shattered thrones with no rulers. But the dead dragons will rule the world entire, and ..." instead of "and nought will be left, save shattered throne with no rulers but the dead. Dragons will rule the world entire, ..."

this is in the ad&d supplement "cult of the dragon" by dale donovan (tsr9547)



I found it interesting how the correct tranlation more or less makes reference to a *return* to the Time of Dragons, when elves still ived in caves and dragons did indeed "rule the world entire".

This idea formed the basis for my idea that Sammaster was in truth the spawn of Tiamat, born to tell of his mother and lovers coming .... to reign as ultimate sovereign in a new age of dragons. The clash between his instinctual urges and drives as her offspring, and his inaduquette western intellectual upbringing, conpsired to bring about many of Sam's misadventured, failed associations, and mistranslation.

Sorry, for running off on non-canon there ....

Warder of the Geats

"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda
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cpthero2
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USA
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Posted - 01 Oct 2018 :  03:50:18  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Flay,

Also, don't forget the currently unprinted "Phoenix Prophecies" as written by the Abbalayar, and specifically Nyr'ysr.

They could easily have been one of the othe 7,978 prophecies.

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay

I have looked into the group known as the Cult of the Dragon and read they are actual fanatical followers of an old arccmages ideas about dragons and some such. Bu I haven't been able to find any info on what Sammaster actually predicts will come to pass. any ingo would be aprreciated


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 01 Oct 2018 :  05:28:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meh. We don't have anything connecting the Phoenix Prophecies to the Cult of the Dragon. This doesn't rule it out, of course, but I think the existing lore for the Cult is strong enough without trying to tack on something with no apparent connection.

Besides, the timing is tricky for making that connection. Sammy created his first dracolich in 902DR. The Phoenix Prophecies were described, in 1370, as having been written "over 400 years ago" -- which I would say puts them at 931DR at the earliest. That's 439 years previously. Anything closer to 450 years would have been described as such, thinks I, and having them written closer to 900DR would make them closer to 500 years old. And again, if that was the case, I think they'd then be described as "nearly 500 years old" instead.

(The "over 400 years ago" reference comes from page 6 of Empires of the Shining Sea; page 45 says the current year is 1370)

Also, Sammy published his mistranslation in 887DR (page 16, The Cult of the Dragon); that's 15 years before he had a dracolich, and closer to 500 years before 1370.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Oct 2018 05:29:10
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cpthero2
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Posted - 01 Oct 2018 :  14:45:59  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I completely agree with you there as far as the prophecies not being explicitly tied to the CotD. I was adding that in there in light of the massive amount of prophecies, that likely would discuss the CotD in some manner or another. I was also ruminating on the idea of the other 7,978 prophecies being worked on within Candlekeep as unofficial canon, as that would be a pretty epic undertaking. That being said...

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the matter of the Phoenix Prophecies and how old they are. They are definitely from at least the Genie Wars time of Calimshan, so we're talking at a minimum of over 7,332 years into the past (I select that because of the Genie Wars {I'll explain more below} and a current year of 1372 DR in my personal campaign). I am going to begin with listing my three sources, and then describing some time analysis, so we're on the same page with reference points, etc.

Sources
  • Empires of the Shining Sea (August, 1998)
  • Calimport (October, 1998)
  • The Grand History of the Realms (September, 2007)


Time Analysis
quote:
"Thus, history for the entire territory is broken down here by the dominant historical patterns established by Calimshan, which measure time in relation to the great Imperial Ages." (Empires of the Shining Sea, p5)

quote:
"...all historical references are measured using Dalereckoning as a standard to facilitate cross-referencing times and events across the breadth of the Realms and between the past and present." (EotSS, p5-6)


  • Time of the Genies: Arrived in -7,800 DR (GHotR, p19)
  • Calimport destroyed: -7,790 DR (Calimport, p13, GHotR, p19)
  • Genie Wars:c. -5,960 DR (Calimport, p14)
  • Eye Tyrant Wars: -170 DR (Calimport, p20)


Establishing the Prophets of Abbalayar
quote:
"The arcane prophets of Calimshan are known as the Abbalayar, of which more can be gleaned in the "Wild Calimshan" chapter of Section Two of this work. Of immediate historical import though, are the Phoenix Prophecies." (EotSS, p6)


This, for others who are following this thread and may not yet know, validates the existence of the Abbalayar.

Establishing the Physical Age of Abbalayar
quote:
"When the djinn ruled the lands around the Marching Mountains, the Abbalayar were given sovereignty over Mount Abbalayat. With the fall of the djinn, the Abbalayar hid their home from the eyes of mortals, and only rarely have any recognized Abbalyar ventured from it since then.(EotSS, p85)


This validates the time frame of the existence of the Abbalayar. Even if we just go back to when Calimport was destroyed the first time (-7,790 DR, Calimport p13, GHotR, p19) and not the arrival of the Djinn in -7,800, it can be seen that the Abbalayar are approximately 9,162 years old.

Establishing Nar'ysr as a Prophet of Abbalayar
quote:
"The greatest of Abbalayar seers is known only as the Nar'ysr, though to Northerners, he is far more famous as the Phoenix of Calimshan." (EotSS, p6)

Later in this rebuttal, you will notice that Nar'ysr is referred to as, "El Nar'ysr." Just to indicate that El Nar'ysr and Nar'ysr are the same, I've referenced the Arabic translation (since that is what Calimshan is really derived upon in terms of the vernacular utilized):
quote:
al- (Arabic: #1575;#1604;#8206;), also Romanized as el- as pronounced in varieties of Arabic, is the definite article in the Arabic language: a particle (#7717;arf) whose function is to render the noun on which it is prefixed definite. For example, the word #1603;#1578;#1575;#1576; kit#257;b "book" can be made definite by prefixing it with al-, resulting in #1575;#1604;#1603;#1578;#1575;#1576; al-kit#257;b "the book". Consequently, al- is typically translated as the in English

As can be seen in the first quote of this section, Nar'ysr is referred to "...as the Nar'ysr..."

Esablishing That Nar'ysr Wrote the Phoenix Prophecies
quote:
What many students of the Phoenix Prophecies await are the culmination of the remaining Auguries, which are among the the most enigmatic prophecies ever seen. (EotSS, p7)

As "Auguries" are capitalized, we can tell that the shortened version of "Caleph Auguries" is referred to as "Auguries", which is a part of the Phoenix Prophecies.
quote:
"The Caleph Auguries are the most prominent and important prophecies made by the Nar'ysr, for they foretold (and continue to predict) the major schisms that established and later divided the so-called Empires of the Shining Sea. The Caleph Auguries roughly forecast the Nine Ages of Calimshan, and many of the titles for the time periods within this history are derived from the Nar'ysr's predictions. (EotSS, p6-7)

quote:
"Within the Caleph Auguries, the Nar'ysr saw the rise and fall of the empires and powers. (EotSS, p7)


quote:
"Still, for scholars across the Realms, the Phoenix Prophecies both instituted and predicted the great ages of Calimshan." (EotSS, p6)

quote:
"In all, there are well over 8,000 separate Phoenix Prophecies recorded in the Herald Swordswreath's seven-volume manuscript, though, aside from the Caleph Auguries, most are of little interest to non-Calishites."

An important note to make here. Master Rupert, you had referenced that the writings had "...been written "over 400 years ago" -- which I would say puts them at 931 DR at the earliest." (Master Rupert, 01 Oct 18) However, if I may humbly point out, your quote is incorrect. The exact quote from the Empires of the Shining Sea, p6 states exactly, the following:
quote:
...from a loose translation of his name when the Herald Swordswreath recorded many of his prophecies over 400 years ago.

The operative word there is recorded as it draws all of the necessary difference between when it was originally written, and when it was merely recorded by the Herald's. Additional evidence of this is just after the reference of 400 years in the following paragraph in the EotSS, where it is indicated that the version in Herald's Holdfast is not the actual original work of Nar'ysr, but another Abbalayar prophet:
quote:
While copies of the Herald Swordswreath's manuscript lie in libraries in Candlekeep, Calimport, Silverymoon, Waterdeep, and elsewhere, the original manuscript volumes entitled The Phoenix Prophecies lie safely at Herald's Holdfast. This work is the first non-Calishite recording of the prophecies, though it is a work compiled both from a contemporary Abbalayar's memories and a number of small, now-lost sources that recorded earlier, slightly altered versions of the same prophecies. (EotSS, p6)

This work is the first non-Calishite recording of the prophecies..., definitely separates that this is a foreign produced recording, and as indicated directly below, not by Nar'ysr.
What this clearly indicates is that another Abbalayar prophet, and a small set of sources (but not the complete works) were utilized to record what is sitting in the vaults of the Heralds. If it had been Nar'ysr, it would not have been stated that "...a contemporary Abbalayar...", but rather it would have said Nar'ysr. The Heralds are experts and would have cited the originator being interviewed, and not a follow-up.

Determining the Age of Nar'ysr Based on the Age of His Works/Prophecies/Forecasts
quote:
"The Caleph Auguries are the most prominent and important prophecies made by the Nar'ysr, for they foretold (and continue to predict) the major schisms that established and later divided the so-called Empires of the Shining Sea. The Caleph Auguries roughly forecast the Nine Ages of Calimshan, and many of the titles for the time periods within this history are derived from the Nar'ysr's predictions. (EotSS, p6-7)

quote:
"Within the Caleph Auguries, the Nar'ysr saw the rise and fall of the empires and powers. (EotSS, p7)


quote:
"Still, along all the references to eclipses within the recorded Phoenix Prophecies, El Nar'ysr loosely predicted the Genie Wars, the Twelve Peak Wars, and the Eye Tyrant Wars, no less than four wars during the Shoon Imperium, and even the Time of Troubles and the Tuigan Horde---though they had little impact on Calimshan itself." (EotSS, p7)

The important part here, since the Caleph Auguries were established as a subset of the Phoenix Prophecies further and earlier above and were written by Nar'ysr, that they predicted the Nine Ages of Calimshan, which goes back -5300/-5000 (historians disagree over the exact year, EotSS, p14), and as were indicated in the previous quote, actually incorporates the Genie Wars, which occurred in c. -5,960 DR. As it states that Nar'ysr predicted the Nine Ages of Calimshan, he has to precede that time period. The end result, and good news for Realmslore enthusiasts is that we know that these prophecies are massively powerful in terms of how far back they go, dwarfing the prophecies of Alaundo in years, and truly establishing in recorded history at least, the oldest known prophecies, which even predate Jhaamdath!

As always, I appreciate the rigorous debate, and historical work being done here. Thank you for keeping me on my toes Master Rupert!

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Meh. We don't have anything connecting the Phoenix Prophecies to the Cult of the Dragon. This doesn't rule it out, of course, but I think the existing lore for the Cult is strong enough without trying to tack on something with no apparent connection.

Besides, the timing is tricky for making that connection. Sammy created his first dracolich in 902DR. The Phoenix Prophecies were described, in 1370, as having been written "over 400 years ago" -- which I would say puts them at 931DR at the earliest. That's 439 years previously. Anything closer to 450 years would have been described as such, thinks I, and having them written closer to 900DR would make them closer to 500 years old. And again, if that was the case, I think they'd then be described as "nearly 500 years old" instead.

(The "over 400 years ago" reference comes from page 6 of Empires of the Shining Sea; page 45 says the current year is 1370)

Also, Sammy published his mistranslation in 887DR (page 16, The Cult of the Dragon); that's 15 years before he had a dracolich, and closer to 500 years before 1370.



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 01 Oct 2018 :  17:59:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The timing issue remains. If they were recorded 400 years before 1370, then Sammy couldn't have read them in the 887-902 time frame.

And there's also the fact that there is absolutely nothing at all indicating Sammy was even aware of these prophecies. Everything we have on Sammy explicitly states his inspiration was Maglas's Chronicle of the Years to Come.

I'm not contesting that there's not niftiness contained in the Phoenix Prophecies, I'm contesting connecting them to something -- anything! -- without a reason to make that connection.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 01 Oct 2018 :  18:28:06  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Oh, I completely agree regarding Sammy. No disagreement at all there. It was fun conjecture at the notion of "niftiness contained in the Phoenix Prophecies." That was all that part was. It seems that El Nar'ysr had to have some really amazing thing in the other 7,978 prophecies. Hopefully at some point in the future we will!

As you said,
quote:
This doesn't rule it out, of course, but I think the existing lore for the Cult is strong enough without trying to tack on something with no apparent connection.

So, the fun of poking around and thinking on it is too much to resist!


That was why I was saying, I may consider starting up a work that begins the drafting of those other 7,978 prophecies as of course, unofficial work. That would be immensely fun!

The larger part of that work I sent out was just to address that it was another Abbalayar that went up and spoke with the Herald's, not The Phoenix.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The timing issue remains. If they were recorded 400 years before 1370, then Sammy couldn't have read them in the 887-902 time frame.

And there's also the fact that there is absolutely nothing at all indicating Sammy was even aware of these prophecies. Everything we have on Sammy explicitly states his inspiration was Maglas's Chronicle of the Years to Come.

I'm not contesting that there's not niftiness contained in the Phoenix Prophecies, I'm contesting connecting them to something -- anything! -- without a reason to make that connection.


Higher Atlar
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cpthero2
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Posted - 01 Oct 2018 :  19:51:44  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I also have to say: it was quite fun poking around in all of that old Calishite lore, rereading that material on the Abbalayar prophets. Very glad we had that conversation.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The timing issue remains. If they were recorded 400 years before 1370, then Sammy couldn't have read them in the 887-902 time frame.

And there's also the fact that there is absolutely nothing at all indicating Sammy was even aware of these prophecies. Everything we have on Sammy explicitly states his inspiration was Maglas's Chronicle of the Years to Come.

I'm not contesting that there's not niftiness contained in the Phoenix Prophecies, I'm contesting connecting them to something -- anything! -- without a reason to make that connection.


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Returnip
Learned Scribe

221 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  14:07:38  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I just flipped thru The Cult of the Dragon, a 2E source about Sammaster and the Cult. I did not see any prophecies in there, though it does say he retranslated many existing prophecies. It is from one of these mistranslations that the Cult arose.

Maglas, a seer and oracle, wrote in his book Chronicle of Years to Come:

quote:
"And naught will be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire, and..."


Ol' Sammy translated it to:

quote:
"And naught will be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers. But the dead dragons shall rule the world entire, and..."


And that was enough to set Sammy down the path of creating his first dracolich...

The above info comes from page 16 of The Cult of the Dragon.




Imagine the cult is just the result of lost in translation. Sammy just happen to suck really bad and should spend more skill points on additional languages.

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  16:03:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My current theory is that the guy who made the original prophecy got it wrong. It wasn't a prophecy, it was a glimpse into Abeir, a world were the dragons killed their masters and dominated the world. Then Sammy went and muddled stuff even worse...

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Dec 2020 16:04:27
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  20:58:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

My current theory is that the guy who made the original prophecy got it wrong. It wasn't a prophecy, it was a glimpse into Abeir, a world were the dragons killed their masters and dominated the world. Then Sammy went and muddled stuff even worse...



I quite like that Zeromaru X.

And I also like my prophecies to be mysterious and unfulfilled.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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cpthero2
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Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  21:41:37  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Returnip,

quote:
Imagine the cult is just the result of lost in translation. Sammy just happen to suck really bad and should spend more skill points on additional languages.


hahaha... I love that. "Level up better bro..." Lathander shows up to nuke him for sucking at math and language.

Best regards,



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Ayrik
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Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  23:09:56  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I just flipped thru The Cult of the Dragon, a 2E source about Sammaster and the Cult. I did not see any prophecies in there, though it does say he retranslated many existing prophecies. It is from one of these mistranslations that the Cult arose.

Maglas, a seer and oracle, wrote in his book Chronicle of Years to Come:
quote:
"And naught will be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire, and..."


Ol' Sammy translated it to:
quote:
"And naught will be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers. But the dead dragons shall rule the world entire, and..."


Re-reading this sourcebook left me with the impression that both (mis)translations were equally imperfect, equally valid, equally invalid.

Of course, the Ol' Sammy version inspired an evil Cult which actively attempts to make this version of the prophecy happen. Strange that such an accomplished wizard would be troubled over ambiguity in another wizard's visions instead of attempting to prophesize the visions directly. And strange that so many wizards would later promote or oppose the Cult without themselves attempting to confirm the original prophecy firsthand.

It's worth noting that other (published) prophecies of distant Realms futures never came to pass - and likely never will come to pass - especially when attempting to peer into times beyond "unforeseeable" events like the Spellplague.

[/Ayrik]
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

221 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2020 :  00:16:54  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Of course, the Ol' Sammy version inspired an evil Cult which actively attempts to make this version of the prophecy happen. Strange that such an accomplished wizard would be troubled over ambiguity in another wizard's visions instead of attempting to prophesize the visions directly. And strange that so many wizards would later promote or oppose the Cult without themselves attempting to confirm the original prophecy firsthand.


I don't find that strange at all. That's how religious cults and conspirations happen in the real world, and the reactions to them by those on the outside. Why wouldn't it be the same in Faerūn?

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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Ayrik
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Posted - 15 Dec 2020 :  02:23:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose I just don't understand the mindset.

The Realms is a world where deities are patently manifest, where the evidence of their existence is absolutely undeniable, where things like faith and divine visions can be firmly proven or disproven. Cults on our world must deal with intangibles, vague promises and assurances about things which can otherwise be denied. Cults in the Realms must instead compete against countless other faiths which can easily and reproducibly demonstrate the validity of their beliefs, they must be able to confirm what they offer is closer to The Truth than whatever untruths can be found elsewhere.

Common folk may not have direct access to the spells and rituals they need to interrogate higher powers or experience otherworldly visions. But uncommon folk (like wizards) do have such access. Along, we are told, with the sort of towering intellectual discipline needed to think critically, to innovate, and to acquire knowledge. I would expect such uncommoners to seek truth firsthand rather than rely entirely on the possibly (and very often) wrong interpretations of others. Especially in controversial things which have already been interpreted in significantly different ways. Especially in consequential things which determine, say, your lifetime allegiances and religious beliefs, or the possible extinction of your own species, or the ultimate fate of your world.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Dec 2020 02:35:07
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cpthero2
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USA
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Posted - 15 Dec 2020 :  06:43:38  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

You make great points for sure about cults and in our world, they have to deal with faith, whereas in the Realms, deities are real. However, imagine the confusion that could come about, or being overwhelmed with so much magic coursing through your body that the limitations that most people feel are really eradicated and you have to think: what will I do, what is real, why is it real, is that my reality, or should I change it, can I?

It would be mind boggling I think. I've always chalked it up to Sammy going nutty.

Best regards,







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Ayrik
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Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2020 :  07:23:40  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sammaster's sanity or insanity explains Sammaster's beliefs. Perhaps also the beliefs of those he was able to directly influence.

But Sammaster's mental state doesn't explain why erudites of later centuries would continue those beliefs. The Cult's dracoliches are shackled into service by their instincts and by evil magics. But the Cult's human archmagi (and once-human liches) suffer no such magical compulsions. They supposedly also possess genius-level intellects. They each serve the Cult in different ways for different reasons, surely at least a few must be unimpressed by Sammaster's Cult of Personality. None have ever dared to examine Sammaster's vision of the future they work so hard to achieve? None have ever been tempted to revel in visions of dead dragons ruling the world?

I'm just saying that simple fact checks wouldn't be so hard to accomplish. And that an underground cult which has persisted across centuries - which has always embraced members of amoral, villainous, treacherous, dangerous, self-serving character - would surely have produced at least a few ambitious deviants willing to cheat or challenge the rules the Cult usually abides.

Or perhaps the Cult does indeed have diviners and seers who've confirmed Sammaster's interpretations. But then, if such a future is indeed fated (a predetermined or at least a possible future which can therefore be foreseen by prophets both within and without the Cult), why should they continue to operate as a scummy little decentralized underground criminal cult instead of as a proper church with a recognized religion?

[An Edit: I point out that my half-hearted decade-long struggle to passively assert the Unavoidable Cult of All-Knowing Drognard has so far produced exactly one convert. But this taciturn young drognyte was quick to challenge Drognard's Doctrine within mere moments of his initiation into the Cult! (All Hail The Great Grumbler, May His Half-Infinite Library Make Footnotes Of Our Names Forever, etc etc)]

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Dec 2020 08:18:42
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