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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe

104 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2022 :  20:44:28  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Other than Salvatore's books, is the FR novel line dead for all intents and purposes?

HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2022 :  22:15:51  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as I know, yes, Salvatore is the only author currently publishing FR novels, as WotC closed their fiction publishing department a few years ago.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2022 :  22:56:31  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sadly, yes. We're all hoping they change their minds.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe

104 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2022 :  00:28:11  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who is publishing Salvatore's books? Could Elaine Cunningham or another author do that as well if WotC signed off on it? Didn't Ed Greenwood have the right to have a book published every year? It's hard to believe a fictional world that spawned in the neighborhood of 200 novels can't generate more.

Edited by - Sunderstone on 14 Feb 2022 00:36:20
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2022 :  01:00:12  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone

Could Elaine Cunningham or another author do that as well if WotC signed off on it? Didn't Ed Greenwood have the right to have a book published every year? It's hard to believe a fictional world that spawned in the neighborhood of 200 novels can't generate more.


Yes another author could have a novel published if WotC signed off on that occurring.
As for Ed writing a novel a year go, the general understanding is WotC and Ed could agree that he would not be published if a joint agreement was reached.

That is Ed could agree not to write anything if WotC compensated him to not write one.

Of course it is possible the general understanding of a small part of a contract does not fully explain why there have not been Ed novels for a few to many years.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2022 :  02:24:17  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone

Who is publishing Salvatore's books? Could Elaine Cunningham or another author do that as well if WotC signed off on it? Didn't Ed Greenwood have the right to have a book published every year? It's hard to believe a fictional world that spawned in the neighborhood of 200 novels can't generate more.

HarperCollins is Salvatore's current publisher, if I remember correctly. And yes, other authors could go that route, if they found a publisher. But unless they have a bestselling series they're continuing (a la Drizzt or Dragonlance), it's probably not going to happen.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2022 :  00:18:29  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drizzt is essentially the WotC cash cow, so RAS was able to work out a contract with HarperCollins and WotC. But WotC/Hasbro has said they aren't in thr (novel) publishing industry. I had hope at first that the Drizzt books being published by HC meant that they were "handing" the publishing aspect over, and other novels would follow. But so far, no such luck.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2022 :  06:06:08  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's maddening that instead they are publishing this crap: https://www.amazon.com/dp/006301128X
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2022 :  18:53:38  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

It's maddening that instead they are publishing this crap:

They publish what sells. There's a reason why Wizards shut down their fiction publishing department, and it's not because they couldn't handle the massive profits. If anyone deserves your ire, it's the average American consumer.
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2022 :  19:06:31  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

They publish what sells. There's a reason why Wizards shut down their fiction publishing department, and it's not because they couldn't handle the massive profits. If anyone deserves your ire, it's the average American consumer.
[/quote]

Oh, trust me, I'm plenty annoyed at the fanbois who have their heads stuck so far up RAS's ass that they think his shit smells like roses. :P
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2022 :  20:03:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

It's maddening that instead they are publishing this crap:

They publish what sells. There's a reason why Wizards shut down their fiction publishing department, and it's not because they couldn't handle the massive profits. If anyone deserves your ire, it's the average American consumer.



From what some former TSR/WotC staffers have said, it wasn't about the money -- the novels were actually more profitable than the game material. The issue was that for some reason, the corporate mindset was that they were a gaming company and shouldn't have anything to do with novels. So, rather than continue to make a profit on novels, they deliberately walked away from it.

This is one of their business decisions that I find great fault with. I'll defend their business decisions, even if I don't agree with them, if the decision makes sense to me. But opting to get less profit because it was, as one former staffer put it, "the wrong kind of money"? Nope, that one just doesn't make anything resembling sense.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2022 :  23:02:38  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

It's maddening that instead they are publishing this crap:

They publish what sells. There's a reason why Wizards shut down their fiction publishing department, and it's not because they couldn't handle the massive profits. If anyone deserves your ire, it's the average American consumer.


From what some former TSR/WotC staffers have said, it wasn't about the money -- the novels were actually more profitable than the game material.
I've never heard this before. Do you have a source? Also, I can believe the novels were more profitable when Drizzt and Dragonlance were at their height, but that was a good 30 years ago. I doubt very much that the novel line was more profitable in the past 20 years. I mean, how well do you think the the Sundering series sold compared to 5E in 2014? I'd bet not very well.

quote:
The issue was that for some reason, the corporate mindset was that they were a gaming company and shouldn't have anything to do with novels. So, rather than continue to make a profit on novels, they deliberately walked away from it.
I remember that quote, and the impression I got was that they were admitting that the fiction department was mismanaged because they were bad at running it and didn't know what they were doing. But from what I remember, the quote was vague enough to support different interpretations, including your own.

quote:
This is one of their business decisions that I find great fault with. I'll defend their business decisions, even if I don't agree with them, if the decision makes sense to me. But opting to get less profit because it was, as one former staffer put it, "the wrong kind of money"? Nope, that one just doesn't make anything resembling sense.

That could be. And apropos this subject, there was just a news story recently about an activist investor trying to get Hasbro to spin off the D&D business, because they (the investor) feels that the D&D brand could be making a lot more money than it currently is. Maybe the discontinued novel line plays into that.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/activist-investor-seeks-changes-at-hasbro-including-spinning-off-d-d-11645058876

Edited by - HighOne on 17 Feb 2022 23:03:49
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  00:49:35  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

It's maddening that instead they are publishing this crap: https://www.amazon.com/dp/006301128X



Omg, seriously? They're even calling it "Dao"? Don't get me wrong, I actually find Eastern philosophy and religions really interesting, but to call a collection of his journal entries "the Dao"...I get what they are trying to do by calling it that, but...no.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  01:53:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

It's maddening that instead they are publishing this crap: https://www.amazon.com/dp/006301128X



Omg, seriously? They're even calling it "Dao"? Don't get me wrong, I actually find Eastern philosophy and religions really interesting, but to call a collection of his journal entries "the Dao"...I get what they are trying to do by calling it that, but...no.



I heard female beings from the elemental plane of earth were especially affronted by the title, but they were afraid to say anything about it lest they draw his ire.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Feb 2022 01:54:48
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  02:33:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

From what some former TSR/WotC staffers have said, it wasn't about the money -- the novels were actually more profitable than the game material.
I've never heard this before. Do you have a source? Also, I can believe the novels were more profitable when Drizzt and Dragonlance were at their height, but that was a good 30 years ago. I doubt very much that the novel line was more profitable in the past 20 years. I mean, how well do you think the the Sundering series sold compared to 5E in 2014? I'd bet not very well.



No source, aside from hearing them say it directly, at a couple of the Candlekeep seminars at GenCon.

And it wasn't that the novels earned more money, it was that a novel would have a higher percentage profit than a gaming book. It's fair to say the novels likely brought in less money overall, because of their smaller price tags, but the returns on them were better.

What perplexes me most about the decision is that novels are not edition-dependent, and that they have a broader reach. You can read novels without knowing a thing about the game, and I've seen plenty of newcomers specifically cite novels as what drew them in. They can keep printing the novels for years, long after the rules editions change, and places that would never carry gaming material can carry the novels.

If I became President of WotC tomorrow, getting some of the older novels back in print would be my first objective.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  04:09:49  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Omg, seriously? They're even calling it "Dao"? Don't get me wrong, I actually find Eastern philosophy and religions really interesting, but to call a collection of his journal entries "the Dao"...I get what they are trying to do by calling it that, but...no.



It's disgusting. The compilation of all of Drizzt’s journal entries is already bad enough, as they range from emo at best to a toolish mouthpiece for Salvatore at worst (if not more).

But no, he has to go one step further. The title just had to go the extra mile into cultural appropriation, especially with how badly he botched “fixing the racism issue of drow” with his latest book. I get that Drizzt is part-monk now, but couldn’t Bob have just left it as “The Way of Drizzt”? Why does it need to do this to Chinese philosophy? Never mind that it doesn’t fit at all in Forgotten Realms lore, did he seriously have to do this?

I mean, it's true that there are tons of books out there called the Tao/Dao of _________: motorcycles, travel, programming, various fields of sciences, etc etc you name it, but somehow it feels worse given the history of race issues surrounding drow that RAS decides to go the way of cultural appropriation.

Edited by - sno4wy on 18 Feb 2022 04:10:07
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  04:31:06  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"dao" is simply a word that means "road" as well as anything else like "arrive" and so on...depends on if you are speaking Mandarin, Cantonese or etc. There is no such thing as a "Chinese Language" any more than there is any such thing as speaking "European" as a language.

I have zero problems with the title any more than I have problems with the English language absorbing words like "Taco" or anything else. It's a word. It isn't appropriating anything.

As for their dropping the ball on their novels...stupid move. Just one of the most horrid decisions I've ever seen a company make. They could literally have HUNDREDS of novels still for sale making clear money.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  05:15:32  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
"dao" is simply a word that means "road" as well as anything else like "arrive" and so on...depends on if you are speaking Mandarin, Cantonese or etc. There is no such thing as a "Chinese Language" any more than there is any such thing as speaking "European" as a language.



Except that different countries in Europe speak different languages, and different Asian countries speak different languages. Mandarin and Cantonese are closer to two different dialects than two different languages, but it's not at all accurate to say that the Chinese language isn't its own separate and unique language.

Dao/Tao also specifically refers to a philosophy/culture, there's a reason why RAS went with the Dao of Drizzt instead of the pad (Afrikaans)/rrugė (Albanian)/#4632;#4757;#4872;#4853; (Amharic)/#1591;#1585;#1610;#1602; (Arabic)/#1395;#1377;#1398;#1377;#1402;#1377;#1408;#1392;(Armenian)/"road" in any other language of Drizzt, because he's specifically referring to that philosophy/culture.

Edit: Apparently this site can't handle certain special characters, but regardless, my point stands.

Edited by - sno4wy on 18 Feb 2022 05:21:58
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  05:15:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like Dalor, the title doesn't bother me.

But the content? Well, even before I swore off reading about that character, I didn't like the journal entries.

Obviously someone thinks there's a market for this book... I have to wonder if the market is really there or if this is misplaced optimism. I know which I personally think it is, but the flip side is, I don't have the data that was used to justify trying this.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  05:34:54  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the Drizzt novels, but even I tend to skip the philosophical passages. The few I've read came across as pretentious and over-wrought, and they added nothing to the story. So yeah, I share Wooly's skepticism. I don't see this book being a big seller.

Edited by - HighOne on 18 Feb 2022 05:35:26
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  14:44:48  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
"dao" is simply a word that means "road" as well as anything else like "arrive" and so on...depends on if you are speaking Mandarin, Cantonese or etc. There is no such thing as a "Chinese Language" any more than there is any such thing as speaking "European" as a language.



Except that different countries in Europe speak different languages, and different Asian countries speak different languages. Mandarin and Cantonese are closer to two different dialects than two different languages, but it's not at all accurate to say that the Chinese language isn't its own separate and unique language.

Dao/Tao also specifically refers to a philosophy/culture, there's a reason why RAS went with the Dao of Drizzt instead of the pad (Afrikaans)/rrugė (Albanian)/#4632;#4757;#4872;#4853; (Amharic)/#1591;#1585;#1610;#1602; (Arabic)/#1395;#1377;#1398;#1377;#1402;#1377;#1408;#1392;(Armenian)/"road" in any other language of Drizzt, because he's specifically referring to that philosophy/culture.

Edit: Apparently this site can't handle certain special characters, but regardless, my point stands.



My godson is from Beijing. Speaks Mandarin obviously. The dominant Mandarin (for both political expedience and ethnic motivations that aren't so noble) is what most think is "Chinese" but it isn't.

My own son speaks Mandarin and a smattering of Cantonese.

They ARE different languages, it isn't up for "debate" at all. The idea that the two are dialects stems from a Eurocentric world view about "China" and "Chinese" being the same thing. They aren't. I worked for PetroChina for a while as an English Language Instructor. I promise you that Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages.

Yes, they use the same alphabet...but so do the French and English.

Want to tell someone from a European country they speak a "Dialect of European" and they will laugh in your face.

So, like I said. The word "dao" means several different things in different languages. I don't normally quote Wikipedia...but it is simple enough:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China

The first paragraph will put it plainly into focus.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe

Brazil
129 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  17:14:37  Show Profile Send Captain Grafalcon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

From what some former TSR/WotC staffers have said, it wasn't about the money -- the novels were actually more profitable than the game material.
I've never heard this before. Do you have a source? Also, I can believe the novels were more profitable when Drizzt and Dragonlance were at their height, but that was a good 30 years ago. I doubt very much that the novel line was more profitable in the past 20 years. I mean, how well do you think the the Sundering series sold compared to 5E in 2014? I'd bet not very well.



No source, aside from hearing them say it directly, at a couple of the Candlekeep seminars at GenCon.

And it wasn't that the novels earned more money, it was that a novel would have a higher percentage profit than a gaming book. It's fair to say the novels likely brought in less money overall, because of their smaller price tags, but the returns on them were better.

What perplexes me most about the decision is that novels are not edition-dependent, and that they have a broader reach. You can read novels without knowing a thing about the game, and I've seen plenty of newcomers specifically cite novels as what drew them in. They can keep printing the novels for years, long after the rules editions change, and places that would never carry gaming material can carry the novels.

If I became President of WotC tomorrow, getting some of the older novels back in print would be my first objective.




I'm amazed at how bolder the company was in past decades. If I remember correctly, the Baldur's Gate game project was delivered to a small and inexperienced group, and look how successful it has become. Recruitment to produce novels was broad, at a time when printing costs were higher. One could argue that the company is far richer now, but it's a little disappointing to learn that it earns more than ever, and isn't very open to new products.

"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  19:08:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Grafalcon


I'm amazed at how bolder the company was in past decades. If I remember correctly, the Baldur's Gate game project was delivered to a small and inexperienced group, and look how successful it has become. Recruitment to produce novels was broad, at a time when printing costs were higher. One could argue that the company is far richer now, but it's a little disappointing to learn that it earns more than ever, and isn't very open to new products.



That's one of the things I've mentioned more than once, especially with regard to novels. As the novel line was slowing down, it became more tightly focused on a handful of proven authors writing about existing characters. It seemed like WotC was unwilling to take a chance on anything that wasn't a sure bet.

...Which is kind of ridiculous, considering that every single one of those "sure bet" characters was once someone brand new, being introduced to the readers for the first time.

Sure, not every new character is going to put their author on the NYT Bestseller list -- but there were a lot of novel characters that were the focus of entire trilogies, if not more than that. You don't have to hit it out of the park to get a home run.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  19:58:20  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I perused Alta Fox's Hasbro complaint, and the end of the novel line (surprisingly) doesn't come into it. Their other criticisms seem pretty spot on, however. They mention, for example, Hasbro's $4.6b acquisition of eOne a couple years ago:

"The expensive and speculative eOne acquisition for $4.6B in 20191 was not required to make a MTG TV show or D&D movie
and saddled the company with billions in debt, which years later it is still working to repay – this is reinvestment capital that could have gone into further developing core WOTC IP. "

Ain't that the truth.

You can read the whole thing yourself: https://freethewizards.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Alta-Fox-HAS-Presentation-Final.pdf
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  20:28:00  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

I've never heard this before. Do you have a source? Also, I can believe the novels were more profitable when Drizzt and Dragonlance were at their height, but that was a good 30 years ago. I doubt very much that the novel line was more profitable in the past 20 years. I mean, how well do you think the the Sundering series sold compared to 5E in 2014? I'd bet not very well.


-I can believe it.

-In 2005, I bought Lost Empires of Faerun, which came out to $29.95. That same year I also bought Annihilation (Paperback), Elminster's Daughter (Paperback), Extinction (Paperback)
Farthest Reach (Paperback), Ghostwalker (Paperback), Homeland Reprint (Hardcover), Midnight's Mask (Paperback), Realms of the Dragons II (Paperback), The Rite (Paperback), and Silverfall (Paperback). At 6.99 apiece (and honestly, some might've been more expensive), those 9 paperbacks come out to $62.91. The hardcover came out to $25.95, making total novel expenditures $88.86.


-In 2006, I bought two sourcebooks, Dragons of Faerun & Power of Faerun. At $29.95 each, that comes out to $59.90 on sourcebooks. That same year I also bought Blackstaff (Paperback), Bladesinger (Paperback), Bloodwalk (Paperback), Darkvision (Paperback), Final Gate (Paperback), Frostfell (Paperback), Promise of the Witch King (Paperback), Realms of the Elves (Paperback)
Resurrection (Paperback), The Ruin (Paperback), Shadowbred (Paperback), and Son of Thunder (Paperback). At 6.99 apiece (and honestly, some might've been more expensive), those 12 paperbacks come out to $83.88.

-So that's $89.85 on sourcebooks and $172.74. While I might not be a great example of the "average consumer", the lower price point of novels was made up by their more frequent publishing schedule and their greater reach/fanbase.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2022 :  22:51:57  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
My godson is from Beijing. Speaks Mandarin obviously. The dominant Mandarin (for both political expedience and ethnic motivations that aren't so noble) is what most think is "Chinese" but it isn't.

My own son speaks Mandarin and a smattering of Cantonese.

They ARE different languages, it isn't up for "debate" at all. The idea that the two are dialects stems from a Eurocentric world view about "China" and "Chinese" being the same thing. They aren't. I worked for PetroChina for a while as an English Language Instructor. I promise you that Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages.

Yes, they use the same alphabet...but so do the French and English.

Want to tell someone from a European country they speak a "Dialect of European" and they will laugh in your face.

So, like I said. The word "dao" means several different things in different languages. I don't normally quote Wikipedia...but it is simple enough:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China

The first paragraph will put it plainly into focus.



As a person who was born in and grew up in China, first, to describe the basis of the written language as an "alphabet" is simply ridiculous. You might've said "alphabet" because it is true that there is no direct equivalence to English, however obtaining literacy in Chinese is measured by how many characters one knows. The standards have dropped since my time growing up, but back then, knowing 3000 characters was considered secondary school levels of literacy. Having studied both the complex form, which is commonly used with Cantonese, and the simplified form, which is commonly used with Mandarin, I can obviously read both forms, but an individual doesn't need to have learned both to be able to be literate in both. People who are only schooled in the complex form can more often read the simplified form than vice versa, because the simplified form, as its moniker implies, is literally a simpler version. It's the same language, written the same way, and while there are sometimes differences in sentence constructions, the only difference is the number of strokes for some, not even all, characters. To make an analogy, the sentence in English, "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog", doesn't become a different language if you changed it to, "the quick brown fox lazy dog jumped over".

I described Mandarin and Cantonese as different dialects of the Chinese language because this is the perception that was prominent as I was growing up, as well as being prominent within my Chinese-American circles now. It is a northern China centric view for sure, and speaking as an American, I can see the importance in viewing Mandarin and Cantonese as separate languages rather than dialects, as I believe that Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, and probably other areas deserve to be free of the PRC's stifling rule (PRC please don't come after me I'm just arguing with random people over the internet in a small fandom >_>). That said, in a purely technical sense, what's essentially the same written language pronounced differently is the definition of a dialect.

My original post wasn't even mainly about this however, it was about the issue of cultural appropriation. Daoism is an entire culture/religion practiced by a group of people. It's a governing way of life for many Chinese people who aren't active practitioners of the religion as well as being a core theme in its literature, including the texts that are central to cultural identity. It's so much more than meaning "road" or "way". It's like how Native American headdresses have cultural meaning and other people using them because they look cool is cultural appropriation and is not appropriate.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2022 :  03:54:36  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
My godson is from Beijing. Speaks Mandarin obviously. The dominant Mandarin (for both political expedience and ethnic motivations that aren't so noble) is what most think is "Chinese" but it isn't.

My own son speaks Mandarin and a smattering of Cantonese.

They ARE different languages, it isn't up for "debate" at all. The idea that the two are dialects stems from a Eurocentric world view about "China" and "Chinese" being the same thing. They aren't. I worked for PetroChina for a while as an English Language Instructor. I promise you that Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages.

Yes, they use the same alphabet...but so do the French and English.

Want to tell someone from a European country they speak a "Dialect of European" and they will laugh in your face.

So, like I said. The word "dao" means several different things in different languages. I don't normally quote Wikipedia...but it is simple enough:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China

The first paragraph will put it plainly into focus.



As a person who was born in and grew up in China, first, to describe the basis of the written language as an "alphabet" is simply ridiculous. You might've said "alphabet" because it is true that there is no direct equivalence to English, however obtaining literacy in Chinese is measured by how many characters one knows. The standards have dropped since my time growing up, but back then, knowing 3000 characters was considered secondary school levels of literacy. Having studied both the complex form, which is commonly used with Cantonese, and the simplified form, which is commonly used with Mandarin, I can obviously read both forms, but an individual doesn't need to have learned both to be able to be literate in both. People who are only schooled in the complex form can more often read the simplified form than vice versa, because the simplified form, as its moniker implies, is literally a simpler version. It's the same language, written the same way, and while there are sometimes differences in sentence constructions, the only difference is the number of strokes for some, not even all, characters. To make an analogy, the sentence in English, "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog", doesn't become a different language if you changed it to, "the quick brown fox lazy dog jumped over".

I described Mandarin and Cantonese as different dialects of the Chinese language because this is the perception that was prominent as I was growing up, as well as being prominent within my Chinese-American circles now. It is a northern China centric view for sure, and speaking as an American, I can see the importance in viewing Mandarin and Cantonese as separate languages rather than dialects, as I believe that Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, and probably other areas deserve to be free of the PRC's stifling rule (PRC please don't come after me I'm just arguing with random people over the internet in a small fandom >_>). That said, in a purely technical sense, what's essentially the same written language pronounced differently is the definition of a dialect.

My original post wasn't even mainly about this however, it was about the issue of cultural appropriation. Daoism is an entire culture/religion practiced by a group of people. It's a governing way of life for many Chinese people who aren't active practitioners of the religion as well as being a core theme in its literature, including the texts that are central to cultural identity. It's so much more than meaning "road" or "way". It's like how Native American headdresses have cultural meaning and other people using them because they look cool is cultural appropriation and is not appropriate.



So, you are saying you grew up in China and speak both?

Yet you are giving me an entirely different "truth" compared to every single Cantonese speaking individual I have ever met. Contrary to my friend who was HR admin for PetroChina who made his son my godson and is Mandarin and used to talk sh** about Cantonese people and their "dirty language"...that is what you are saying?

You are literally saying that Cantonese is a "dialect" of "Chinese" when, even in China, only native speakers of Mandarin would make the claim that their language is "Chinese" (and then only because it is the dominant language forced on Cantonese speakers, and others, when they go to school). Cantonese speakers are allowed their language at home, but the moment they cross the school line, they are forced to speak Mandarin. Publicly they are forced to use Mandarin so that their social credit score doesn't tank.

You are saying that these are not different languages; but that Cantonese is only a "dialect" of Chinese.

Even though, internationally, there is a plethora of programs dedicated to the study of the many languages of China. It is easy to find, search any language institute at a major university...worldwide.

Mandarin does indeed have many dialects:

Mandarin (and its recognized dialects)
-Beijing Mandarin
--Standard Chinese (the language you say is all encompassing and only has dialects...is that right?)
--Singaporean Mandarin
--Malaysian Mandarin
-Taiwanese Mandarin
--Taipei Mandarin
-Northeastern Mandarin
-Jilu Mandarin
-Jiaoliao Mandarin
-Zhongyuan Mandarin
-Lanyin Mandarin
-Lower Yangtze Mandarin
-Southwestern Mandarin

That is Mandarin and its dialects.

Jin, Wu, Huizhou, Yue (here you find Cantonese) and MANY others are all DIFFERENT languages in China.

I don't care what you say...just because characters are used in common doesn't make a language a dialect of Chinese...the characters simply made all these UNIQUE languages mutually understandable in WRITTEN form. It did NOT make them the same language.

Your persistence to the contrary by appealing to your personal experience doesn't change fact.

I don't enjoy pissing contests. So I'm not saying anything else about this language crap. Anyone can find out about the official count of different languages in China...google it.

Don't attack the man...provide verifiable facts...or take your ball and go home.

That aside, lets roll down the street of Cultural Appropriation as you talk about your personal experience growing up in China and using that as fodder for an argument about what we just set to rest eh?

That is ridiculous.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2022 :  05:16:41  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
So, you are saying you grew up in China and speak both?

Yet you are giving me an entirely different "truth" compared to every single Cantonese speaking individual I have ever met. Contrary to my friend who was HR admin for PetroChina who made his son my godson and is Mandarin and used to talk sh** about Cantonese people and their "dirty language"...that is what you are saying?

You are literally saying that Cantonese is a "dialect" of "Chinese" when, even in China, only native speakers of Mandarin would make the claim that their language is "Chinese" (and then only because it is the dominant language forced on Cantonese speakers, and others, when they go to school). Cantonese speakers are allowed their language at home, but the moment they cross the school line, they are forced to speak Mandarin. Publicly they are forced to use Mandarin so that their social credit score doesn't tank.

You are saying that these are not different languages; but that Cantonese is only a "dialect" of Chinese.

Even though, internationally, there is a plethora of programs dedicated to the study of the many languages of China. It is easy to find, search any language institute at a major university...worldwide.

Mandarin does indeed have many dialects:

Mandarin (and its recognized dialects)
-Beijing Mandarin
--Standard Chinese (the language you say is all encompassing and only has dialects...is that right?)
--Singaporean Mandarin
--Malaysian Mandarin
-Taiwanese Mandarin
--Taipei Mandarin
-Northeastern Mandarin
-Jilu Mandarin
-Jiaoliao Mandarin
-Zhongyuan Mandarin
-Lanyin Mandarin
-Lower Yangtze Mandarin
-Southwestern Mandarin

That is Mandarin and its dialects.

Jin, Wu, Huizhou, Yue (here you find Cantonese) and MANY others are all DIFFERENT languages in China.

I don't care what you say...just because characters are used in common doesn't make a language a dialect of Chinese...the characters simply made all these UNIQUE languages mutually understandable in WRITTEN form. It did NOT make them the same language.

Your persistence to the contrary by appealing to your personal experience doesn't change fact.

I don't enjoy pissing contests. So I'm not saying anything else about this language crap. Anyone can find out about the official count of different languages in China...google it.

Don't attack the man...provide verifiable facts...or take your ball and go home.

That aside, lets roll down the street of Cultural Appropriation as you talk about your personal experience growing up in China and using that as fodder for an argument about what we just set to rest eh?

That is ridiculous.



Let me remind you that you're the one who first cited your own experiences and relations, to assert some sort of authority/validity over me, whom you assumed had less "credentials" than yourself. Now that you've found out that that's not the case and that you lose on the "credentials" front, you resort to ad hominem attacks and attempting to downplay my experiences, which I'd shared in response to your sharing of your personal experiences/relations. Very mature. Hypocrisy much?

To answer your question, yes, I grew up in China and I speak both Mandarin and Cantonese, as well as other dialects of #20013;#25991;, which is the same phrase that both Mandarin and Cantonese use to describe the language of the region - it literally translates into "language/text of the middle kingdom", or in other words, Chinese.

How many Cantonese-speaking individuals have you met? Where did they come from? Unless you've met literally thousands of people, again, your "credentials" fall short. You keep touting them however, while simultaneously putting me down when I do the same because, according to you, personal relations and experience do not matter in this topic when they belong to me, but when they belong to you they're valid points, kindly pick one approach and stick to it, you can't have it both ways. You share details that no one cares about regarding your god son to make some sort of point, and yet feel it's totally valid to put down my objective statements of the language.

Although I'm sure you're going to dismiss this as yet another what you call "fodder", my Cantonese-speaking relatives in Taiwan, who are fiercely anti-north, refer to Mandarin as an "accent of #20013;#25991;", and it's a commonly-shared perspective there. When the natives have this perspective, I trust it more than some foreigner who relies on Google articles that claim that Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages while in the very same article refer to the two as dialects of one another. Read more carefully in your Google-fu, your opinion is not "fact" just because a few search results fit your perspective, especially when the articles contradict themselves.

I'm really sorry that I inadvertently one-upped your Chinese validity by actually being Chinese. Trust me, if I could've been born with the privilege and ignorance enjoyed by mediocre white men, I'd choose that in a heartbeat. As it is, this here is a perfect example of what it's like trying to explain cultural appropriation to someone who's convinced he knows better than a member of that culture because knowing someone who speaks the language makes him an expert: he derails the subject, does the cultural equivalent of mansplaining, and resorts to ad hominem attacks. Such textbook behavior of those who pretend that cultural appropriation/racism/bigotry aren't real it's painful.

I originally was going to respond with just an , but I made the mistake of giving this guy the benefit of the doubt. Silly me. Other readers can take what they will from this, I'm done here.

Edited by - sno4wy on 19 Feb 2022 05:24:42
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
275 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2022 :  07:13:12  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This thread may need to be locked.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2022 :  10:50:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane

This thread may need to be locked.



I agree that we've fully explored that particular tangent and need to leave off with it. If you guys want to continue that discussion, please take it to PM.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2022 :  19:24:48  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will pass on the Dao of Drizzt. No more Drizzt stuff for me.
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