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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 07:41:17
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I finally read this trilogy decades too late. I have to say it is probably up there alongside the Songs and Swords series by Elaine Cunningham. I think what makes me love it so much is how darn WEIRD it is with clones, halfling bards [before they were a thing], dinosaur paladins, and the genuinely impressive villains of both Moander as well as Flattery Wyvernspur.
I also like how the third book made Alias' utterly impractical armor from the cover art canon. A lot of authors would just go, "Yeah, it's the cover, whatcha gonna do?" But I love how they said, "It was a weird sexy mage's armor. It's enchanted out the wazoo. It's weird but functions very well."
I'm really sad about the fate of one character, though.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 08:46:53
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Alias's armor is described as a chainmail +2 (+3 in earlier sources). The protective enchantment is what it is, fair enough, a wizard can enchant any item or telesma fashioned in any style desired.
But I would dispute that exposed cleavage shirt being rated as a base item armor class equivalent to a proper suit of chain. I'd call it AC3 instead of AC5 - the center of the torso is a vital area to protect (and to attack) - so I'd say that even with the enchantment this magical armor is roughly equivalent to or only slightly better than an unenchanted chainmail suit in terms of actual effective armor class. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 16:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Alias's armor is described as a chainmail +2 (+3 in earlier sources). The protective enchantment is what it is, fair enough, a wizard can enchant any item or telesma fashioned in any style desired.
But I would dispute that exposed cleavage shirt being rated as a base item armor class equivalent to a proper suit of chain. I'd call it AC3 instead of AC5 - the center of the torso is a vital area to protect (and to attack) - so I'd say that even with the enchantment this magical armor is roughly equivalent to or only slightly better than an unenchanted chainmail suit in terms of actual effective armor class.
Or, you know, the magic enchantment creates a magical field around the character donning the armor, thus negating any perceived disadvantages of the armor. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2022 : 12:07:15
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Amazing series. Also loved seeing finder in finder's bane and Tymora's luck. Took me not very long to get into the new Characters like Joel, Jas, and Holly.
And cormyr: a novel, while only briefly having Giogi and Cat was one of the greatest of all time realms novels.
Masquerades with Alias and dragonbait vs the night masks was also fantastic
For the original trilogy, I flip flop a lot on my favorite. I laughed out loud the most during wyvern spur. Just love that book.
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Edited by - Firestorm on 29 Mar 2022 12:08:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2022 : 17:05:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Amazing series. Also loved seeing finder in finder's bane and Tymora's luck. Took me not very long to get into the new Characters like Joel, Jas, and Holly.
And cormyr: a novel, while only briefly having Giogi and Cat was one of the greatest of all time realms novels.
Masquerades with Alias and dragonbait vs the night masks was also fantastic
For the original trilogy, I flip flop a lot on my favorite. I laughed out loud the most during wyvern spur. Just love that book.
I agree on all but the flip-flopping part. 
Minor quibble, though: Jasmine was not a new character, in those books. She was from the Forgotten Realms comic book, which Jeff Grubb was involved with, and then later the Spelljammer comic.
I once met Jeff Grubb, at GenCon. I told him that whenever someone wanted to know where to start reading Realms novels, I always recommended Azure Bonds and Elfshadow -- and he immediately started gushing about how awesome Elaine's stuff is! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2022 : 05:32:07
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Some random thoughts:
1. I think Alias is the best character in the books and certainly someone I would have read many books about with her as the protagonist. I was actually rather disappointed to know that she didn't have a starring role in all three books. However, I can't say I much cared for the third book's portrayal of her as she suddenly seemed to go from being a mature woman to a very childish one as if discovering she was a clone made her mentally regress.
2. I think THE WYVERN'S SPUR is the best of the three novels with the fact that Flattery Wyvernspur is one of the villains of the Realms with the most panache. The fact he's a Dark Lord with a flying castle, zombie army, and lovely assistant makes it all the more fun because Giogi is basically up against Skeletor or Sauron when he's a complete nincompoop.
3. I really did not like killing Akabar in the third book as it felt like Finder was getting a lot of reward while the heroic green grocer didn't. I also felt like his characterization was "off" and we lost a lot of his interesting qualities. Jeff Grub created the character so he knows him best but the books treatment of Alias and Akabr did feel weird.
4. I like how utterly WEIRD the books are and how little they stick to basic D&D tropes: clones, flying fortresses, dinosaur people, turning into Wyverns, and so on. They went nuts and the stories were all the better for it.
5. I actually liked Moander and Casanna in the first book and they're my favorite runner up villains. Moander being a surprisingly erudite and friendly mind-controlling incarnation of rot and Casanna being a vivacious sexy sorceress when there's a surprising dearth of those in Realms fantasy.
6. I love how much of the plot depends on the fact that Halfling bards don't exist despite it being ridiculous. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2022 : 02:39:03
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quote:
6. I love how much of the plot depends on the fact that Halfling bards don't exist despite it being ridiculous.
In other books, much plot depends on the fact that drow rangers aren't supposed to exist because it's even more ridiculous.
Why can't (couldn't) halflings be bards? Dunno.
Why can't (couldn't) drow be rangers. Well, there's some complexities involving a racial Chaotic Evil alignment - deeply rooted in history and mythology and an ancient crime or curse inflicted by gods - along with an aggressive tendency to murder or enslave Good-aligned weaklings - and active worship of Lolth - and no forests in the Underdark, etc. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2022 : 04:48:12
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I admit, I appreciated Jeff Grubb and Kate Novac just went with racism.
"No halfling bards exist because the bard colleges wouldn't accept them." |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2022 : 13:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
6. I love how much of the plot depends on the fact that Halfling bards don't exist despite it being ridiculous.
In other books, much plot depends on the fact that drow rangers aren't supposed to exist because it's even more ridiculous.
Why can't (couldn't) halflings be bards? Dunno.
Why can't (couldn't) drow be rangers. Well, there's some complexities involving a racial Chaotic Evil alignment - deeply rooted in history and mythology and an ancient crime or curse inflicted by gods - along with an aggressive tendency to murder or enslave Good-aligned weaklings - and active worship of Lolth - and no forests in the Underdark, etc.
Curious...I thought the underdark, even without the presence of forests, offered a rich ecosystem that would require rangers to discern tracks, predator hotspots, etc.I always assumed that Valas Hune was a ranger.
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"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thievesuntil they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Stones Finder
Acolyte
Canada
30 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2022 : 22:17:51
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| Ranger is listed as a class opportunity for drow in the 1e Unearthed Arcana - back in the days when rangers had to be good-aligned. I've always wondered if that was part of RAS' inspiration for Drizzt. |
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it - Advice for the 5e design team |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 22:49:39
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I loved this series so much, and the Wyvern's Spur in particular that I bought the original cover painting off of Clyde Caldswell.
Giogi is my hero. It's amazing how he goes from minor, annoying side character in Azure Bonds to a really appealing protagonist in the sequel.
Agree the 3rd book is the weakest and really starts to fall apart when they reach the Lost Vale and beyond.
Masquerades is okay, I like Tymora's Luck and Finder's Bane better. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2022 : 21:30:37
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I recently finished the trilogy, and although I liked the first one a lot, because of the originality of many aspects of the story, I find the two subsequent books confusing. It seems to me that they tried to add more layers of complexity beyond the first book that don't sound so believable.
1) Alias, who is portrayed at some points as a paladin (???), in the third book is portrayed as immature because she does not have a long life span. Ok so far, but some sisters, fruits of the same experiment, demonstrate wisdom and greater control.
2) I don't buy Olive's personality. Her nature fluctuate drastically from betraying her companions in the first book to advising Finder on how to be a better parent, a more selfless person in the third book.
3) This is the second consecutive trilogy I've read in which Elminster is accidentally sent somewhere and doesn't cooperate in the way he's expected to. I understand that this is a common feature in stories to highlight the autonomy of the protagonists, but with frequent use it becomes exhaustive. "Guys...what happened to Elminster? I don't know...let's move on." |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thievesuntil they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2022 : 22:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Grafalcon
I recently finished the trilogy, and although I liked the first one a lot, because of the originality of many aspects of the story, I find the two subsequent books confusing. It seems to me that they tried to add more layers of complexity beyond the first book that don't sound so believable.
1) Alias, who is portrayed at some points as a paladin (???), in the third book is portrayed as immature because she does not have a long life span. Ok so far, but some sisters, fruits of the same experiment, demonstrate wisdom and greater control.
I'm not sure where you get the paladin part from... One of the first things we see her doing is swiping a gemstone that was meant to be a divine offering.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Grafalcon
2) I don't buy Olive's personality. Her nature fluctuate drastically from betraying her companions in the first book to advising Finder on how to be a better parent, a more selfless person in the third book.
She wasn't comfortable with betraying her companions in the first book. She wound up growing a lot, as a character, particularly in the second book.
It's not as much a drastic fluctuation as it is experiencing some rather dramatic events and learning to care more for others in the process.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Grafalcon
3) This is the second consecutive trilogy I've read in which Elminster is accidentally sent somewhere and doesn't cooperate in the way he's expected to. I understand that this is a common feature in stories to highlight the autonomy of the protagonists, but with frequent use it becomes exhaustive. "Guys...what happened to Elminster? I don't know...let's move on."
Yeah, they have relied a little overmuch on that particular method for sidelining him. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2022 : 13:10:39
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1) Alias, who is portrayed at some points as a paladin (???), in the third book is portrayed as immature because she does not have a long life span. Ok so far, but some sisters, fruits of the same experiment, demonstrate wisdom and greater control.[/quote]
I'm not sure where you get the paladin part from... One of the first things we see her doing is swiping a gemstone that was meant to be a divine offering.
Indeed. I am searching now in the book and there is no association. It was a wrong impression. She is usually called a swordswoman.
As for Olive, I just think her redemption was too fast. Receiving a Harpers pin just after what she did was too much for me, even if its not really official. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thievesuntil they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
Edited by - Captain Grafalcon on 14 May 2022 13:14:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2022 : 17:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Grafalcon
As for Olive, I just think her redemption was too fast. Receiving a Harpers pin just after what she did was too much for me, even if its not really official.
Why is it too fast? It was a year in which she'd seen the consequences of her actions, learned to work with others, seen someone she cared for murdered, and found a mentor that respected her as the bard she wanted to be and that she looked up to. And it was her pushing that mentor to be a better person that helped him become one -- she was, essentially, making him learn the same lesson she learned, that being a part of something can be better than being alone.
I know there's a line about "people don't change" but it's simply not true. People change constantly, but it's usually in small ways over a long period of time. Given the right circumstances, people can change more dramatically and more quickly, though -- and going from "I'm just trying to be a bard over here" to being involved in plots of evil wizards and dragons and gods is a pretty major thing.
Honestly, I would have been more bothered by it if she *hadn't* been changed by her experiences.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 May 2022 17:30:13 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2022 : 16:50:55
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| I recently came across a reference to something that happened in Tymora's Luck. There was a day or part of a day where the Realms became "awash in good luck". The wiki has this on pages 77-78 in Tymora's Luck. Does the novel give any indication what part of the year that happened? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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The Finders Stone Trilogy discussion
