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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 19:06:24
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The book is very good, but I think Drizzt lost too many times.
The end of the book makes the story go on for many more Salvatore books in the Realms. That is great.
@Salvatore: When will you write the next one?
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Edited by - Alaundo on 20 Nov 2004 16:14:01
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 21:36:59
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| It's out already? Damn, I just went to the bookstore today to pick up Annihilation and I didn't see it. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 21:45:44
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Hmmmm, WotC listed the novel having a specific release date of 19th October.
Has anyone else seen the novel anywhere (or any other October releases). |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 21:53:43
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Sorry guys, but some book are earlyer on stores out here in germany. Don`t blame me for it, I`m just happy. 
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 21:57:45
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I know at my old job at one of the big chain bookstores we could check books out from the store, like in a library. If you have a manager who doesn't mind (and being one of the managers, I didn't mind ) the books that weren't even on the shelf yet could be checked out. You can bet the big stores already have the book sitting in their backrooms waiting until Tuesday of next week. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 22:31:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lameth
The book is very good, but I think Drizzt lost too many times.
The end of the book makes the story go on for many more Salvatore books in the Realms. That is great.
@Salvatore: When will you write the next one?
You can ask R.A. Salvatore a question in his author's thread within this forum. I believe his next WOTC novel will be focusing on a certain duo featured in Realms of the Dragons who now find themselves working for some interesting new siblings.
But, as to this novel, can you give a quick summary? Anyone important die? Any significant changes?
Thanks.
SB |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 22:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Has anyone else seen the novel anywhere (or any other October releases).
B&N online has it listed as ships within 24 hours. Shining South and Realms of the Dragons are also both out although the former hasn't hit every online vendor as of yet. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 23:12:13
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Has anyone else seen the novel anywhere (or any other October releases).
B&N online has it listed as ships within 24 hours. Shining South and Realms of the Dragons are also both out although the former hasn't hit every online vendor as of yet.
Thanks Sirius. Do you have\have you seen Shining South in the stores or do you order all your products online? (I'm hoping to pick a number of products up at GENCON at the weekend - Shining South, Libris Mortis, 30 Years of D&D, to name but three) |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 23:26:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Thanks Sirius. Do you have\have you seen Shining South in the stores or do you order all your products online? (I'm hoping to pick a number of products up at GENCON at the weekend - Shining South, Libris Mortis, 30 Years of D&D, to name but three)
I haven't seen Shining South in stores yet. The B&N I visit on occassion won't have it in until next month judging on past experiences with products. The gaming shop about fifteen minutes from my host I wouldn't buy from under any circumstances. Thus, always online for me. |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 06:21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Lameth
The book is very good, but I think Drizzt lost too many times.
The end of the book makes the story go on for many more Salvatore books in the Realms. That is great.
@Salvatore: When will you write the next one?
You can ask R.A. Salvatore a question in his author's thread within this forum. I believe his next WOTC novel will be focusing on a certain duo featured in Realms of the Dragons who now find themselves working for some interesting new siblings.
But, as to this novel, can you give a quick summary? Anyone important die? Any significant changes?
Thanks.
SB
Do you realy wanna know, if someone dies in the book?
The Silver Marches will change indeed. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 07:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Lameth
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Lameth
The book is very good, but I think Drizzt lost too many times.
The end of the book makes the story go on for many more Salvatore books in the Realms. That is great.
@Salvatore: When will you write the next one?
You can ask R.A. Salvatore a question in his author's thread within this forum. I believe his next WOTC novel will be focusing on a certain duo featured in Realms of the Dragons who now find themselves working for some interesting new siblings.
But, as to this novel, can you give a quick summary? Anyone important die? Any significant changes?
Thanks.
SB
Do you realy wanna know, if someone dies in the book?
The Silver Marches will change indeed.
That's really the only reason I've been reading this trilogy-to find out what Salvatore does to my precious Marches. After this, I'm done with him. I've read enough of his stuff.
*returns to Neal Stephenson* |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 16:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lameth
Do you realy wanna know, if someone dies in the book?
The Silver Marches will change indeed.
Yep, I wouldn't ask otherwise. So does anyone significant perish and what changes have been done to the Silver Marches? |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 04:26:43
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Please place a spoiler warning if you do so.
How do people get this book so early? Oh well, only one week to go.
quote:
I believe his next WOTC novel will be focusing on a certain duo featured in Realms of the Dragons who now find themselves working for some interesting new siblings.
Yes. There should be two, both having Servant in them to make a trilogy, and RAS said in one of his replies that one of the duo will not make it through(altough I could not find the exact quote). |
Carthago delenda est. |
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Talinfein
Acolyte
Germany
14 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 11:50:39
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HEAVY SPOILERs
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Be warned HEAVY spoilers ahead....
First, I´d like to say that I don´t trust Salvatore when he says someone is going to die. In his FR books people have been thinking someone else dead from the first trilogy - no one ever actually was. It´s almost the same with Two Swords. In his interview on the Wizard site he hints that not all may make it through - not true. The only "relevant" person that dies is Delly, Wulfgar´s "wife". Actually, General Dagnar (sp?) also bites the dust (and man how I hated the Nesmian humans for that), but he is hardly a main character.
Overall, I liked the book very much - excepting a few scenes. One was when Drizzt confronts Obould the first time and the Orc, who admittedly is powerful, just paralyzes Drizzt with his enigmatic stare and powerful presence. Don´t get me wrong, I really enjoy Drizzt moving away from being the superhero he used to be in the older novels but this scene just didn´t feel right. There were other, minor, complaints and one continuity isse unless I got something wrong (Fender suddenly being able to speak again at the end of the novel). I liked how Salvatore resolved Drizzt´s constant inner conflicts about being an elf and long-lived and finding his place. The scene where he sweeps Catti-brie in his arms and carries her away was one I´ve been waiting for for a long time.
One other thing that bothered me was the predictability of the end. Obould being a character written down in the FRCS it was so clear that he wouldn´t die - which he should have in a duel with Drizzt imho. But now we have a huge orc realm in the north (called the Realm of Dark Arrow or somesuch) led by an immensely powerful orc who is also immensely intelligent. Interesting times await.
BTW, I think the two swords could also refer to Obouls Greatsword and Cutter, which Drizzt uses in his final confrontation to wound the orc. |
Edited by - Talinfein on 13 Oct 2004 11:51:53 |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 12:49:44
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SPOILER
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Nobody importent die. In the Silver Marches are some thousand Orks and they are building villages and a big Town.
Drizzt loose many battles.
Cattie Brie and Wulfgar get wounded.
Tja and many many Orcs die by Scimitars or Battleaxes :-)
The humans work for Nesme and left Mithril Hall alone for the fight. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 13:31:24
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First thank you to Talinfein and Lameth for the summary.
More Spoilers
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Originally posted by Talinfein
HEAVY SPOILERs
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Be warned HEAVY spoilers ahead....
First, I´d like to say that I don´t trust Salvatore when he says someone is going to die. In his FR books people have been thinking someone else dead from the first trilogy - no one ever actually was. It´s almost the same with Two Swords.
To be quite honest that's something you should have expected. I never believed anyone important would die. I'm sorry you feel a bit frustrated.
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In his interview on the Wizard site he hints that not all may make it through - not true.
It's an author's prerogative to tease, misdirect, and write funny blurbs when he does biography sections in anthologies.
quote:
I liked how Salvatore resolved Drizzt´s constant inner conflicts about being an elf and long-lived and finding his place. The scene where he sweeps Catti-brie in his arms and carries her away was one I´ve been waiting for for a long time.
Well, that's interesting. Drizzt and Catti-brie finally?
quote:
But now we have a huge orc realm in the north (called the Realm of Dark Arrow or somesuch) led by an immensely powerful orc who is also immensely intelligent. Interesting times await.
Where exactly in the North? The Silver Marches' leaders are fine with this?
Interesting is one way to put this new development.
Thank you again. |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 14:42:10
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SPOILER
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Where exactly in the North? The Silver Marches' leaders are fine with this?
Thank you again.
The leaders won`t attack, because of the winter. Maybe in Spring they will see what they can do about an attack. But the cost of lives would be too high at the coming of winter. And so the send soldiers and mages to protect Mithril Hall, nothing more.
First the humans want to rebuild Nesme. |
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Talinfein
Acolyte
Germany
14 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 16:04:29
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SPOILERS AHEAD
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Sirius, actually I am not disappointed. I WANT the heroes to survive - all of them. I just don´t trust Salvatore´s public remarks. And yes, of course an author is allowed to tease. I didn´t really feel frustrated. One thing that always strikes me with Bob´s novels is how different a feeling they conjure compared to other Realms novels and I really like that. Oh yes, and his descriptions of dwarves, of course.
Concerning the powers of the Silver Marches, Alustriel makes a few appearances in the novel (and never actually casting anything more powerful than a fireball, iirc). There is one scene where Bruenor (Mithril Hall), Galen Firth (Nesme), Emerus Warcrown (forgot where he comes from), and Alustriel (Silverymoon, Sundabar, Everlund) are discussing further plans. The result is that Nesme will be reinforced and the trolls driven back into the moors. The Surbrin (iirc) will be secured by Bruenor and Emerus. But all through the novel it is described how the orcs are digging in and how they are even building a fortified city. So even though Bruenor and Emerus want to go drive the orcs out of the north, Alustriel tells them that the other cities are not willing to let thousands of people die while they storm orc battlements without ever knowing if they even have a chance to win (we are talking tens of thousands of orcs). It didn´t look as if they were going to do anything after winter was through.
Salvatore did hint at future events at the end of the book though when Bruenor makes plans to travel to Gauntlgrym and look for a way to drive the orcs back - maybe a set-up for later novels, who knows.
Me, I´m content with having finished this trilogy and am eagerly awaiting the Entreri/Jarlaxle books which should be a welcome change of pace before he hopefully returns to the Companions of the Hall and resolves the story in the north (especially after Wulfgar wore such a painful expression on his face when Drizzt and Cat finally got together). As much as Drizzt´s "whining" sometimes grates on my nerves, I have to remind myself that inner struggles like that are not typical for FR stories (some highlights excepted of course - Cale, for example).
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Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 19:30:15
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Quiet disappointed with this, got it today (As well as Shining South)the major death that RAS has alluded to is none other than..... Delly, oh and Dagna bites it as well.
Even the battle scenes lacked RAs's usual verve, and none leave that truly visceral feeling in your stomach, that is RAS's signature IMO.
Also the theme of Drizz't not knowing what it means to be an elf, and with Innovindil willing to show him was unfulfilling to say the least. Basically the thoughts of Drizz't reviwing events that preface the chapters are what it means to be an elf....big whoop. It's a little bit more complicated than that but not much!
Also to my mind The Two swords doesn't tie up enough plot threads for my liking either (Obuld survives even though Drizz't et al, all think he is dead). Knowing what it measn to be an elf resolves the will they won't they relationship between Drizz't and Catti-Brie (even though they only spend about a page and half in novel togther at its conclusion).
I'd give it about 5/10. Maybe i was expecting too much from the book but it left me distinctly underwhelmed. Like going for a meal and finding out that what you thought was the appetizer was in fact the main course. On the plus side what I've read of the Shining South is pretty sweet :) |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2004 : 17:41:18
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This book is only one week old and this thread is already pushed to page 2? I think not...
SPOILERS
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I always get very excited when a new Drizzt novel (or any RAS FR novel) is about to come out. The Two Swords was eagerly anticipated, and eagerly devoured. I might complain about RAS, but he fills a vital niche in the FR library that no one can deny.
The Two Swords was entertaining. I appreciated the new shift in the relationship between Wulfgar, Drizzt, and Cattie-brie. With Drizzt away killing orcs, Wulfgar and Cattie-brie seemed to fall into old habits, which of course led to Delly feeling jealous and trapped in Mithril Hall. I really liked how the end of the story gives a big question: Will Drizzt and Wulfgar have a falling out over Cattie-brie? Jeez...women!
I also appreciated the introduction of a new possible love interest in the form of Innovindel. I wonder how she will come into play concerning Cattie-brie. Certainly Drizzt can expect a long life of love with the elf as oppose to watching Cattie-brie grow old and die. I'm sure that conflict will be ironed out more in a Drizzt journal.
And the star of the entire novel, I feel, was good-old Khazid-hea, the Cutter! I love that weapon. Finally, RAS uses the weapon to some real effect! Ever since Drizzt claimed it from Dantrag Baenre, I've enjoyed every mention of that weapon. Once I saw how Cutter's role unfolded, I giggled with glee. At first I though Delly would kill Cattie-brie, then I realized that the sword was making its way into Obould's hands. When Obould resisted the sword's pleas and tossed it over the mountain immediately, I laughed. We really learned how strong-willed Obould is. I think it would have been great if the sword had control over Obould. At least we would have been able to blame an intelligent sword on the creation of Dark Arrow Keep, not a filthy orc scumbag.
There are also a number of memorable dwarven characters in this trilogy, including Banak, Cordio, Torgar, Nikkwilig, and Fender, and I'm noticing that they don't all sound like Breunor. Breunor really stood out as his own dwarf in The Two Swords.
I also appreciated the fact that Obould is still alive. I remember saying, "Drizzt had better kill Obould. I've been waiting for this since The Thousand Orcs, and RAS better deliver!" Now I'm glad that Obould is still around. It gives Wulfgar another chance to battle the orc king, and it also gives RAS the opportunity to do more with the king. It also gives Obould the chance to decide what to do with Gerti.
I must say, however, that I was disappointed with Drizzt's prowess on the battlefield. I know that authors don't really pay attention to stats (which I think is a mistake, considering how so many readers also game, and will automatically look for consistency). Obould has 9 levels in the FRCS. Drizzt has 16 levels in the FRCS. Mathematically, Drizzt should have been able to casually kill Obould, armor or not. Drizzt could have used a number of techniques to kill Obould without hitting the orc with his scimitars. Perhaps he would have killed Obould if not for the interferance of Karlic, who surprised me with the casting of earthquake. I didn't know she was that powerful.
And, of course, we have the ambiguity of Obould's rise to Gruumsh's favor. Considering the fact that the ceremony had Obould twisting off a bull's head (bull's strength) and killing a great cat with his bare hands (cat's grace), I assume that his upgrade was nothing more than a permanent casting of all of the ability buff spells (including eagle's splendor, owl's wisdom, etc.). Sure, we didn't see him chew off an eagle's head or squash an owl into jelly, but he is obviously smarter and sharper. How he got a hold of that armor and helm is beyond me. Those items are the product of dwarven, human, or elven skill, not the product of filthy, chaotic, bestial orcs. I don't buy it. And I can't imagine Obould gained any levels since the FRCS, since the foes he fights are dwarf, elf, and human shock troopers, and any powerful foes he fights are not defeated (Wulfgar and Gerti are both humbled, and he fights Drizzt, but none of those fights pan out). As far as I'm concerned, the Obould in The Two Swords is a male orc fighter 4/barbarian 5 with the following ability scores: Str 22, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 14.
Now, take Obould and compare him to a base marilith tanar'ri, a creature Drizzt defeated single-handedly in Passage to Dawn. Drizzt had more trouble fighting an ogre juiced up on potions (Sea of Swords)! I don't get it.
I also didn't like the fact that Wulfgar seems like a weakling now. When he was fighting orcs outside Mithril Hall, trying to secure the Surbrin, he tires way too quickly. He should have been toppling 3-4 orcs with each swing of Aegis-fang, causing them to literally flee from his presence. He should have been dragged off the field by five tough dwarves, hollering the whole time, "I'm not done killing yet! TEMPUS!!" Watching Wulfgar in The Two Swords was like watching air quickly escape a balloon, farting sound and all.
Perhaps his lack of prowess on the battlefield comes from him worrying about Delly, but I doubt it. She's a weak-willed, silly little waif who never really understood what Wulfgar fights for. She just wanted things to go her way, of course. "I want to go to Silverymoon, I want this, I want that. I don't care that there are tens of thousands of orcs outside. I'm bored, I want things to go my way. Me me me." In the end she was bested by Cutter without even the slightest struggle, and she abandoned Colson without hardly a fight. I was actually happy to see her die a pathetic death.
I was also greatly confused at the use of bog blokes (sounds like a monster in Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy), a race of tree-like creatures who apparantly appeared in Streams of Silver, but, oddly enough, aren't in any sourcebooks. I expect to be able to go straight to a sourcebook to find these monsters. That was pretty lame. Bog blokes and trolls. Sure, they both must hate fire, so let's put them together! That way, the enemy can use fire to destroy us both! Sure.
All that aside, it would be interesting to study the progression of Drizzt's battles through the years. He goes from defeating a balor demon in The Crystal Shard to being nearly bested by an orc with less hit dice then he has in The Two Swords. I'm not sure why that is.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 22 Oct 2004 18:10:45 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 07:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
As far as I'm concerned, the Obould in The Two Swords is a male orc fighter 4/barbarian 5 with the following ability scores: Str 22, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 14.
That's interesting. For me, the Obould in The Two Swords is a character in a novel.
quote:
He goes from defeating a balor demon in The Crystal Shard to being nearly bested by an orc with less hit dice then he has in The Two Swords. I'm not sure why that is.
I am. Because RA Salvatore is writing a novel, not a D&D gaming product. I'm always a tad confused as to how hurt/angry/crestfallen FR fans are when they seemingly can't translate gaming stats and rules with novel fiction. As if the two have ever and in fact have to have anything to do with each other.
I sometimes think that people either get a kick out of combing through FR fiction to try and show how novelists are "wrong" because Obould is F5/Barb4 (or whatever) and "shouldn't be able to do that!", or are closet masochists whose day to day existence and enjoyment of RPG gaming AND fantasy fiction reading are both jeapardised by the gaming side not marrying up with the fiction with respect to crunchy gaming statistics and rules.
IMHO, a pointless waste of breath and energy. I grant you however, that it is fantastic grist for the many FR Message Board mills - as everyone seems to have an opinion. As do I.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 23 Oct 2004 07:27:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 08:25:08
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I agree with George (can I call you Krash?). Characters in novels are not written in game terms, because they are not being used in a game. The plot and pacing of a book are far more important than some numbers on a piece of paper. If a character in a novel doesn't have enough ranks in a particular skill to pull off what the author intends, should he or she scrap the entire idea? Nay! Run with it, if it's good for the story.
When I sit down to write a short story, I do draw up stats for the characters. But I do it simply to gain an idea of the character's capabilities. Also, picking proficiences (I still tend to go with 2E for this) and such occasionally pushes the character in a previously unforeseen direction.
But that's just a rough guideline. If I need the character to do something the rules don't allow for, then forget the rules -- the plot is the highest consideration.
More than one author on these forums, in response to a question about stats, has said that they don't stat out their characters. If it works for them without stats, so be it. I have no problem with that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 15:33:40
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I'll be sure to include a number of paragraphs in my post to make it easier to respond in a point-by-point manner, as seems to be the norm here.
I see what you're both saying, and I agree. The novels and the game are two separate entities, to separate genres, perhaps. And I understand that most authors don't stat out their characters. Why should they? It's extra work. 
And I also understand that authors aren't writing a game here. Thanks for pointing that out! For the longest time I thought RAS was writing his fight scenes behind a DM's screen with a pencil in one hand and a d20 in the other. That clears up a lot! 
I'm just kidding, so please hold off on replying with a quote until the end of the post.
I suppose I was mentioning stats to prove a point, but I could make the same claim by focusing on the novels themselves. Keep in mind, folks, that I'm not trying to whine and moan. I'm making a benign observation.
I think it's clear in the novels that Drizzt's personal foes have gone through an odd progression. The Drizzt novels have combat at their core, and at this point in the series, I am very critical about how that combat progresses through the years. It seems that he was at his peak in the Legacy of the Drow series, killing foes with apparent ease. In fact, Drizzt, Entreri, Catti-brie, and Guen fought their way out of Menzoberanzan all by themselves! One of the greatest moments in FR fiction, I think. In Passage to Dawn Drizzt kills a marilith, a greater demon with seven attacks, all by himself. I expected nothing less by that point in his career.
(By the way, how would any of us know how powerful a marilith really is without peaking at a Monster Manual?)
Then, in Sea of Swords, Drizzt is running for his life from an ogre juiced up on potions. I was expecting him to hamstring the ogre and slash its throat in a smooth, instantaneous motion. I was irked that that didn't happen. Would that same ogre have made a marilith tanar'ri sweat? Doubtful.
I have respect for Obould as a character, but I don't understand how he has become so much more powerful. In the absence of an explanation in the novel, I will look to what few clues are given, and fill in the gaps with gaming information (i.e. the ceremony concerning the bull and the cat). People are going to do that. As a DM, I automatically make those connections while I'm reading because I know the rules and I know the character statistics. It's a reflex. Besides, why would WotC publish books with novel characters ironed out in gaming terms? Why would they do that if they thought that their readers wouldn't make those connections? Further, why would an author make direct references to the gaming information (the bull and the cat = bull's strength and cat's grace) if he or she wasn't interested in gaming statistics? It doesn't add up.
Also, why would an author disregard statistics ironed out in a gaming book published by the same company that publishes their work? That's like teaching an English class and not adhering to the curriculum. It can be done, but it's not the best way to do things for everyone involved. The principal of that school wouldn't like that, and the "bosses" at Wizards shouldn't like it either. It creates that awful problem known as "inconsistency."
I'm not sure how the whole process works, but it seems to me that an editor or publisher might ask RAS, "Now, why is a 9-HD orc humbling a 16-HD drow elf?" To leave that question unanswered is disappointing. I expect more. To create a world that is consistent and "alive," I would want things to be as air tight as possible, so nerds like me don't have anything to comment on once they finish reading. In a perfect world, maybe that would happen.
Now, once Obould lost his armor (that mysterious armor that dropped down from the sky), Drizzt seemed to make short work of the orc. Of course, Obould is still fighting Drizzt with Cutter lodged in his torso, but I think we understand that Obould is raging at the time, so I can accept that, kinda. If Karlic hadn't cast earthquake, Drizzt would have probably taken Obould's head. I liked how that panned out. Also, I could possibly see how Obould’s great strength gives him greater speed with his greatsword, matching Drizzt’s scimitar cuts, but that’s a big stretch not of the gaming rules, but a stretch concerning Drizzt’s past in the novels.
I would have liked an explanation as to where that magnificent armor came from. RAS uses a mix of third-person and omniscient point of view, so it wouldn't have been odd to fill us in. Did orcs make it? I can't imagine how that would be possible, considering the orc wearing it is the smartest orc in Faerun, and he didn't make it. Did Gruumsh grant it to Obould directly? Tsrinka might have hinted at that possibility, but that shaman was not a reliable source of information. The armor should have been explained as soon as it appeared in the book. I'm sure it will be explained eventually when someone comes up with an answer. 
In the end, there are those who don't want to do their math, and that's fine. To each his (or her) own. I think that a large facet of the experience is lost without doing the math, but that's me as a critical reader and a critical DM. That's probably the main reason I still read FR books, to make those connections between the literature and the gaming experience. Without that connection, I probably wouldn't read them. I'm not the only one, and I think authors should pay attention to that to a certain degree.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 23 Oct 2004 15:56:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 16:01:02
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I'm only going to respond to one point here...
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Besides, why would WotC publish books with novel characters ironed out in gaming terms? Why would they do that if they thought that their readers wouldn't make those connections?
Why? Because there are people, like yourself (no offense intended), who want stats for characters in novels. If you ever look, these stats are not written by the authors themselves, it's always someone else writing it. It's another person who looks at a novel and tries to translate the character's actions into game terms.
But it doesn't always work. It's like translating one language into another -- no language translates exactly into another.
I am very much into gaming, and I tend to think in game terms. But I keep that out of my reading. The authors do not write to the gamers, because that's a smaller audience. They write to the readers -- a larger audience that includes the gamers.
As I said, the plot is the highest consideration, not arbitrarily assigned numbers or rules. If it moves the plot, then it works. That's all I need, and it's all I want. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Proc
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 20:29:32
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Overall, I was fairly pleased with the book in general. I read through it fairly quickly, which is a pretty good sign that at least I enjoyed it.
SPOILER WARNING....
I think Salvatore may be a victim of his own success. He has made Drizzt into one of the greatest warriors in the Realms, and the struggle now becomes to find someone or something that can give him a challenge. If Drizzt goes into any battle and waltzes over his opponents, people are going to become bored fairly quickly. I agree that at some point Drizzt seems to have been downgraded, from defeating Marilith's, Balor's and high-ranking Drow priestesses to comming very close to losing to a orc who, in game terms is nearly half of Drizzt's total level.
That being said however, I like to think that the authors are not limited in their creativity by any gamming product. As Wooly said, the stats for the characters are not done by the authors, and without the author input, I imagine a lot of details can be missed.
I can accept that Obould received power far beyond what can be described in games terms. He's stronger, faster, and most importantly, much more cunning and intelligent. Drizzt even remarks at one point how much Obould reminds him of Entreri, a single-minded fury bent solely on defeating him...
I don't think Salvatore will ever top himself with the numerous battles between Drizzt and Entreri - those moments are still some of my favourites in any FR novel. Years and years after I read them I can still picture the two of them trading blows...
Finally, can anyone fill me in as to what Gauntlgrym is? A long-lost Dwarven kingdom from what I understand. Was it ever mentioned before? |
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2004 : 13:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Proc
Finally, can anyone fill me in as to what Gauntlgrym is? A long-lost Dwarven kingdom from what I understand. Was it ever mentioned before?
Gauntlgrym is one of the most famous 'lost cities' of the Realms. References to it are scattered throughout 1E, 2E and 3E sources, but basically we now know its location (the Crags, southwest of Mirabar) and that it was an underground city built for humans by the dwarves of Delzoun. I've done some "unofficial" stuff on Gauntlgrym for my North Timeline - if you're interested, go here:
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/history.html
but there isn't much definite detail re this place. And, for what it's worth, I think RA Salvatore really needs to have a good look at the sources re Gauntlgrym because the stuff about it spouting forth from Bruenor in the latest novel trilogy is (to put it bluntly) plain wrong. But hey, what do I know.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2004 : 05:15:41
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| There is a screensaver now available featuring this product. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 12:17:24
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I'm finding this novel quite bland. I'm about 1/2 way through and the pace is quite slow with the odd reasonable scene cropping up. I find the combat descriptions a bit tedious these days (maybe i'm getting old ). The scene which I DID like with regards to a battle, was then the battle was about to begin, then the next paragraph stated the bodies and carnage left on the battleground. It was much more atmospheric and suitable than describing every sword swing and clash throughout a battle.
I hope that more coverage of Bruenor comes up, as the story so far has no particular focus and I have yet to get the feeling back for any of the characters. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 14:01:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
I find the combat descriptions a bit tedious these days (maybe i'm getting old ).
We're both old then as I've noticed the same reaction from myself while reading a few different novels this past year. Please let me know what you think of this novel's conclusion and the impact it apparently has on the Silver Marches. |
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R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 02:07:26
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SPOILER
I was quite annoyed with how Delly died. It seemed really really horrible how just the fact that Cattie Brie left Cutter lying around led to such a wasteful death, and made her seem like such a weak willed person. She almost seemed villanous, like a petty, spiteful witch who was always jealous and crushing Wulfgar's spirit.
I thought Salvatore was really on to something when he brought Delly and Colson into the mix with Wulfgar. Now it almost seems like he just wanted Delly out of the picture so he can retcon Cattie-Brie and Wulfgar back together. Delly added a whole new element into the Companions of the Hall. Suddenly one of them had responsibilities to attend to, instead of being able to just do whatever the heck he wanted to at any old time.
And Cattie-Brie should really feel more guilty for leaving such a dangerous weapon lying around for just anyone to find it, even if she was injured. Don't these dwarves have a treasure vault or something to store items like that in?
Ugh, this novel was already disappointing me, but that clenched it. Does anyone else feel the way I do? Or was Delly pretty much universally hated? |
You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE.  |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 22:39:36
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Well I finally finished reading the book tonight. I felt the first half of the book dragged a little, too much combat (as I often find with Salvatore's novels). However, on the flip side of the coin, i felt there wasn't ENOUGH combat in the second part of the book (yeah i'm hard to please ). The combat in the first part was too descriptive, I don't want to read about every sword swing and combat move. There was much more action in The Lone Drow with regards to the attack on Mithril Hall, I expected quite an epic battle in this novel, but was quite disappointed. The orcs never got further than the entrance hall, but after the initial knockback, I expected to read a good few dramatic scenes of orcs in the tunnels, having breached Mithril Hall.
Some of the scenes were quite impressive. I loved the whole Khazid-Hea involvement. I guess the evilness of the sword has been forgotten for quite some time over the past few novels, so it's nice to bring it out.
Delly's story is quite tragic, I felt for her during the book and imagined how she must have felt with regards to Wulfgar's feelings towards both fighting for the cause and for Cattie-Brie.
The book is left wide open at the end and certainly doesn't feel like the end of a trilogy... more like the START of something big. I'm quite happy that the Dark Arrow Keep is still going ahead and i'll be interested to see how the North and Silver Marches develop.
Overall, in hindsight, the book wasn't bad, and the trilogy was entertaining in parts. I think the downsides are that i'm probably a little fed up of Drizzt over the past few books, i've read enough of him and now feel quite detached. Also, as mentioned previously, I'm not fan of heavily detailed combat that goes on page after page, it's unnecessary and gets a little tedious at times.
I hope that WotC cover the situation in the region at some point and don't just leave it hanging like they do with other novel events (Archwizards\Shade, Tree of Life etc.)
7/10 |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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The Two Swords (SPOILERS)
