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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 14:55:55
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Hi folks!
Well, honestly, I have already done it. However, I would like to receive some feedback, or suggestions for coming plots ...
A PC came to the Twisted Tower of Ashaba to seak audience with lord Mourngrym Amcathra. You see, orcs and demons are raiding south Daggerdale, and southwest Shadowdale. And no ranger from Daggerdale has been able to provide any information about the marauding orcs and demons. The PC who came to Shadowdale, is a Cleric of Lathander from Chessenta, and he came together with a hobgoblin sub-chieftan from the Dessertmouth Mountains.
The hobgoblin, told lord Mourngrym that the orcish tribes, together with the goblin tribes, had been united under the banner of demon and that the hobgoblin tribe had rejected an alliance with the demon. Thus, the hobgoblins had become the enemies of the demon. As the hobgoblin had previously had good agreements with the humans of the "eastern cleared lands" (Zhentil Keep), they decided, as it was in the interest of both the hobgoblin tribe and the humans of the cleared lands (Daggerdale and Shadowdale), to form an alliance against the marauding demons and orc. The information about the demons and the orcs was of greatest interst for lord Mourngrym. But, it came as a big surprise to him that the hobgoblins wanted to make an alliance, and come to some agreement about rights for cleared lands for the hobgoblins. Lord Mourngrym, understanding the need of help, even help from mercenary hobgoblins, and the value of the information, had a very diplomatic approach to the issue, but, he did neither say yes or no to the hobgoblin´s suggestion of an alliance. However, at the audience, Munro Cassimar, the head of the local Lathandarian temple was outraged! How could a servant of Lathander, a foreign cleric that he had as guest, ally himself with the forces of evil, with untrusty half-beasts such as the hobgoblins, bloodthirsty barbarians that during so many years have brought much pain to the folks of Daggerdale. So, Munro "banished" the cleric from the temple of Lathander.
Now, Munro is just head of his temple. But, how do you think a situation as the one above might evolve? Do you think that Munro will write to his parent temple in Sembia? Will he send worth to the temple in Dagger Falls?
Please note that hobgoblins are Lawful Evil, but, that is just a game rules issue. You see, in the eyes of Munro, hobgoblins are Chaotic Evil ... or just Evil ...
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 15:19:12
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"Folowers of Lathander seek to build anew and to rebuild. They seek to make lands more productive and push civilization to improve itself through interracial harmony, cooperation, pursuit of the arts and progress."
I do not see reason for a Cleric to reject an alliance with Evil creatures that seek to build or even protect civilizations. The Cleric banishedm perhaps should be sent for further training in my opinion. Of course a treaty with the hobgoblin would and should be carefully monitored to ensure that they do not harm the civilization. I do not see a conflict with letting them building a town or a holding of some kind on lands not in use. |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 16:10:11
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Hi Kentinal,
Well, it is not the PC that has rejected the alliance. He is not in position of taking such as decision. He is just a foreigner from Chessenta that has been guesting Munro Cassimar. Now, Munro Cassimar is also a foreigner, but, still, he has been in Shadowdale for a while and, he is the head of the temple. And, it is Munro who has banished the PC from the temple. Munro, he has read the dogma of Lathander ... many times ... and he is making his own interpretations of the holy words.
As DM, sometimes I think that the panishment that Munro gave the PC was maybe to harsh ... and with Munro beeing a NPC ... means that another dude made the decision of banishing the cleric ... and I am that other dude, the DM. Does, I create situations, and have to live with them. Still, I like the banishment, and my player got very very surprised. And the player, or the PC, felt that he was beeing trated very bad. Using some good guy bad buy tactics, I let lord Mourngrym take the PCs side. But, the PC is still banished. And, at least the player felt that he was not alone, and, then the PC too.
Now, what could that banishment result in, in a fantasy world such as FR. The Lathandarian church is more of an NG organization, if I am not wrong. That is, there is no such thing as a pope. Rules set in one temple might not be followed in another temple. Nevertheless, what could the outcome be? If I am not wrong, then Munro has a superior in Sembia, as he was sent from his home to Shadowdale. that could mean that Munro writes to his superios and states that the PC fellow is banished, and thus, the PC is banished from the Shadowdale Lathandarian temple as well as the Sembian temple. what do you think? And, how about Daggerdale? do you think that head of the temple there should follow the same decision? Maybe, a conflict could start between the different Lathandarian churches.
Lord Mourngrym then, he has already taked side in this delicate problem. Mourngrym is with the Cleric PC, and, the hobgoblin (actually three hobgoblins) is the lord´s temporary guest and is eating dinner in the dining hall (but not with the lord) ... But, how much further do you think that the lord will press the issue. How would a conflict be treated between Munro Cassimar and lord Mourngrym. Imagine that Munro left outraged the tower and, at the moment, some of the townfolks of Shadowdale, are aware of the three hobgoblin visitors and they have questioned Munro of what is happening, and they agree to what Munro says. The simplest thing to do, would be to let Mourngrym reject the alliance, but, the conflicts would make the campaign so much more complex and interesting. Do you not agree? But, what to think of? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 17:16:40
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quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
Hi Kentinal,
Well, it is not the PC that has rejected the alliance. He is not in position of taking such as decision. He is just a foreigner from Chessenta that has been guesting Munro Cassimar. Now, Munro Cassimar is also a foreigner, but, still, he has been in Shadowdale for a while and, he is the head of the temple. And, it is Munro who has banished the PC from the temple. Munro, he has read the dogma of Lathander ... many times ... and he is making his own interpretations of the holy words.
Munro is not absolutely in the wrong, he does not trust Evil creatures (very few people do), and within his rights to banish the PC from his temple. There certainly is room for interpertation.
quote:
As DM, sometimes I think that the panishment that Munro gave the PC was maybe to harsh ... and with Munro beeing a NPC ... means that another dude made the decision of banishing the cleric ... and I am that other dude, the DM. Does, I create situations, and have to live with them. Still, I like the banishment, and my player got very very surprised. And the player, or the PC, felt that he was beeing trated very bad. Using some good guy bad buy tactics, I let lord Mourngrym take the PCs side. But, the PC is still banished. And, at least the player felt that he was not alone, and, then the PC too.
"The DM is always right" The PC has to decide what to do about the conflict of interperations. Certainly could seek advise from a higher level Cleric then the NPC. However that is for the player/PC do decide what to do. The fact that Mourngrym is at least considering an alliance does bolster the PC that the idea is not that far fetched.
quote:
Now, what could that banishment result in, in a fantasy world such as FR. The Lathandarian church is more of an NG organization, if I am not wrong. That is, there is no such thing as a pope. Rules set in one temple might not be followed in another temple. Nevertheless, what could the outcome be? If I am not wrong, then Munro has a superior in Sembia, as he was sent from his home to Shadowdale. that could mean that Munro writes to his superios and states that the PC fellow is banished, and thus, the PC is banished from the Shadowdale Lathandarian temple as well as the Sembian temple. what do you think? And, how about Daggerdale? do you think that head of the temple there should follow the same decision? Maybe, a conflict could start between the different Lathandarian churches.
Yes NG is the God's alignment so followers would tend to be of a NG organization. As for banisment right now it just extends to the local temple. Munro can write to his superior claiming the PC has fallen to try to increase the size on the banishment. However the PC could also write and it is posible the superior might side with the PC. The religion looks like each temple can make their own descions as long as they do not fall and have to atone. Of course the opinion of the higher level Clerics would carry more importance then that of lower level ones. As far as Daggerdale goes I would say the one that is head there will have to make own choice, though depending on level differences of himself, the PC and Munro there might be an odds factor of which way he would go. As long as the DM determines that none of the Clerics go directly against the teaching and the god revokes divine power it will be just a matter of opinion. You of crourse get to decide when and if line is crossed. It would be posible, but unlikely, temple would fight temple, however certainly might have heated disagreement. Off hand I would suspect other Clerics would try to bring about a resolution in the dispute. That could be either trying to convince the PC that hibgoblins can not be trusted or trying to convince Munro that as long as hobgoblins act as defenders that there is no reason to punish the PC by shunning him and in fact it would be a good idea that the PC stays with the hobgoblins to make sure they remain defenders. It is up to you how to handle this. There might be other deals worked out as well.
quote:
Lord Mourngrym then, he has already taked side in this delicate problem. Mourngrym is with the Cleric PC, and, the hobgoblin (actually three hobgoblins) is the lord´s temporary guest and is eating dinner in the dining hall (but not with the lord) ... But, how much further do you think that the lord will press the issue. How would a conflict be treated between Munro Cassimar and lord Mourngrym.
The Lord has a few options, he could banish Munro and let the PC take over the Temple. It certainly might result into a war. Lord Mourngrym though before making a descion will try to decide what is best for the town. If a large percent of the people follow Lathander he might decide to complete deal quickly or decide not to deal. quote:
Imagine that Munro left outraged the tower and, at the moment, some of the townfolks of Shadowdale, are aware of the three hobgoblin visitors and they have questioned Munro of what is happening, and they agree to what Munro says. The simplest thing to do, would be to let Mourngrym reject the alliance, but, the conflicts would make the campaign so much more complex and interesting. Do you not agree? But, what to think of?
It depends on how many townfolk complain and how many guards the Lord has. It is not a Democracy though a civil war should be avoided. You again get to decide how much outcry there will be. Mourngrym might address the people and inform them that he is looking to increase the protection of the town, that should bring a greater safety. As a leader he might be able to counter Munro's complaints. There are many ways to make a deal with the hobgoblins. Perhaps an agreement that from here on forward one one would be allowed in town at a time until the people learn that they can trust them. The hobgoblins might understand the fear enough to acet such terms as pr of bargin. Again it is up to you to decide if alliance can be made. If no alliance has a high chance that PC party will be killed the alliance should be made or some other aid found. Perhaps another town will be more open minded.
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2005 : 22:05:38
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Hi Kentinal, and many thanks!
The book Shadowdale, from the gray box, gives a bit of information on the structure of the Lathanderian church. Munro's home church is in Sembia. Previously, Rewel Thnuderstorm, was the leader of the local temple. Then came Munro and took control of the church. So, there is kind of hierarchy, with the church in Sembia beeing the head of the church Shadowdale. As that is the case, I do not think that Mourngrym has the authority to appoint leaders for the local temples. What do you believe? He could force Munro to leave Shadowdale, but, then he is getting himself in political problems with the church in Sembia. Furthermore, maybe the leaders for the other churches in Shadowdale might get upset, as they might see that matters of leadership is something that is handled by the temples, and not by the lord of the Dale.
I have not tought yet on how big the problem with an alliance with the hobgoblin tribe should get. I want to keep my campaign inline with future FR cannon as much as possible, and, I guess that I would end up alone among FR fans if I choose the path of civil war. Yet, I have to admit, I really like the idea. Imagine, how the player has to feel, how surprised he would get; one little decision, and Shadowdale ends up in a civil war between shadowdalians that support Mourngrym and those that support Munro and the Lathandarian fate. But a civil war, between those two fractions, that seams too odd with local powers as Elminster and Storm. Nevertheless, everything is possible when making a gret story. And, yes, I do not belive that the current problem would lead to fighting between Lathandarian temples (for example, Daggerdale against Shadowdale/Sembia); only tense relations.
Still, at this point, everything is a matter of opinion, I mean, I do not think that the PC has made anything that would make him loose his spell caster abilties.
After my reading of Morningdawn Hall, in Shadowdale, I can imagine that Rewel Thunderstorm tries to "calm down" the Sembian priest. And, if the lord makes an agreement with the hobgoblins, then who better else than the PC to follow the hobgoblins to meet with their chieftan. Thanks.
I think that I will make the folowing, primary decision:
- Munro, upset as he is over the situation, goes immediately to his room in the temple, and starts to write a letter to his superiors in Sembia. Munro is very angry with the Chessentean priest, and also with Mourngrym, so he adds some lines to the letter mentioning Mourngrym´s actions.
- Mourngrym, considering the delicate situation, trys to win time. Brings a gift, some gold, and tells the hobgoblins to leave and tell their chieftan that he is most pleased, and that he will consider their offer and that the gifts and the gold are tokens of ... ... ...
- Townfolks will be very upset, and the lord will have to talk to them, and let them know, that the hobgoblins from the Dessertmouth Mountains brought word of an "evil power that is raising in the mountains, and that evil is a big threat to the folks of Daggerdale and Shadowdale, but also to the tribe of hobgoblins.". Now, some of the townfolks (1/3) will remain upset. Some (1/3) will "calm down", while the rest, they ... I will see.
Actually, I need to win time. Rejecting the alliance is so easy. If the goal of the campaign is letting the god guys win against the orcs and demons, then, they will win, with or without help from the hobgoblins ... And, of cource, the goal is letting the good guys win. But, accepting the alliance, adds a lot more to the campaign. Rights to cleared lands for the hobgoblins ... were would that be? What would Daggerdale and Mistledale say? Cormyr? The churches? The folk? What would the Amcathra family in Waterdeep say? I need to suggestions, ideas, and I do not know what more. I need some possible scenarios, and, unfortunalety, I am a bit drained.
By the way, the PC, Sharakh (NG male Mulan human Clr4) from Chessenta, has plans of joining the Aster Order ...
/Manuel |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2005 : 22:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
<trims> As that is the case, I do not think that Mourngrym has the authority to appoint leaders for the local temples. What do you believe? He could force Munro to leave Shadowdale, but, then he is getting himself in political problems with the church in Sembia.
The might of the Sword and PC certainly is also a Cleric of the same faith. It can happen though not the best way to do it. Munro acidently finding himself dead more effective so that PC has to take over temple at least for a time. Oh the Lord is not that Evil so can not use that plan.
quote:
Furthermore, maybe the leaders for the other churches in Shadowdale might get upset, as they might see that matters of leadership is something that is handled by the temples, and not by the lord of the Dale.
*nods* Yes to take over temple would tend to upset most of the church, the Lord of course has the right to determine which temples are permitted to operate and would tend to try to shut down Evil ones once detected. There is another way that the issue could be handled as well. The Lord could select the PC as a spirital advisor, a court Cleric if you will. Munro of course would not like that either though.
quote:
<more trimng>
I think that I will make the folowing, primary decision:
- Munro, upset as he is over the situation, goes immediately to his room in the temple, and starts to write a letter to his superiors in Sembia. Munro is very angry with the Chessentean priest, and also with Mourngrym, so he adds some lines to the letter mentioning Mourngrym´s actions.
- Mourngrym, considering the delicate situation, trys to win time. Brings a gift, some gold, and tells the hobgoblins to leave and tell their chieftan that he is most pleased, and that he will consider their offer and that the gifts and the gold are tokens of ... ... ...{/quote]
tokens of friendship and apreciation of aid already given (The information about demon danger).
[quote]
- Townfolks will be very upset, and the lord will have to talk to them, and let them know, that the hobgoblins from the Dessertmouth Mountains brought word of an "evil power that is raising in the mountains, and that evil is a big threat to the folks of Daggerdale and Shadowdale, but also to the tribe of hobgoblins.". Now, some of the townfolks (1/3) will remain upset. Some (1/3) will "calm down", while the rest, they ... I will see.
Actually, I need to win time. Rejecting the alliance is so easy. If the goal of the campaign is letting the god guys win against the orcs and demons, then, they will win, with or without help from the hobgoblins ... And, of cource, the goal is letting the good guys win. But, accepting the alliance, adds a lot more to the campaign. Rights to cleared lands for the hobgoblins ... were would that be? What would Daggerdale and Mistledale say? Cormyr? The churches? The folk? What would the Amcathra family in Waterdeep say? I need to suggestions, ideas, and I do not know what more. I need some possible scenarios, and, unfortunalety, I am a bit drained.
I would have to look at a map to best quess lands to be offered. I would look for some caves and certainly select an area between the Dales and the Demons that are under Mourngrym's control. Idealy such land would be near border with few if any citizens already living there. As for what others say a lot will depend on results. There certainly will be some unease, however if hobgobins keep deal and do defend the Dales a slow aceptance should occur. |
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How to Banish a Lathandarian Cleric
