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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 16:29:13
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quote:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
In what situations can a Rogue be sneak attacked?
Am I correct in thinking: When getting evasion a rogue retains dex bonus to ac, however sneak attack applies whenever they are in a situation where they lose dex bonus to ac. Does this mean then that the rogue being sneak attacked reatains their dex bonus to ac for the attack but can still then be sneak attacked?
Also I understand then that they cannot be flanked except by a rogue 4 levels higher, i.e. they as sneak attacking requires the victim to be in a situation to lose dex bonus to ac or be flanked. Does this mean if an invisible rogue (say rogue a), or a rogue catching another (rogue b) unawares somehow, can still sneak attack? For example Rogue a is hidden, rogue b is standing about. Rogue a and rogue b are the same level, rogue a shoots rogue b from less than 30ft away. Would rogue b take sneak attack damage?
Haven't explained that well, hope someone can point me in the right direction :)
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 17:39:56
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"Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. "
(Am I correct in thinking: When getting evasion a rogue retains dex bonus to ac, however sneak attack applies whenever they are in a situation where they lose dex bonus to ac.)
This is correct, however they can not be sneak attacked by being flat footed. Some magic or other circunstance must occur that would deny traget a Dexterity bonus to AC. Also until Improved Uncanny Dodge is achieved they can be sneak attacked from being flanked and keep the AC Dex bonus (if any). Once Improved Uncanny Dodge is reached, they can only be flanked and sneak attacked by a rouge 4 levels higher or if lose a Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) can be sneaked attacked by any level character that has sneak attack ability.
(Also I understand then that they cannot be flanked except by a rogue 4 levels higher, i.e. they as sneak attacking requires the victim to be in a situation to lose dex bonus to ac or be flanked. Does this mean if an invisible rogue (say rogue a), or a rogue catching another (rogue b) unawares somehow, can still sneak attack? For example Rogue a is hidden, rogue b is standing about. Rogue a and rogue b are the same level, rogue a shoots rogue b from less than 30ft away. Would rogue b take sneak attack damage?)
Not the same level, the Dex bonus is not lost even when attacked by invisable foe. Normal damage would apply not the bonus damage. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 20:35:48
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Thanks, thats quite informative.
So do characters being attacked by an invisible or hidden creature not lose their dex bonus to ac?
Also I think I understand how improved uncanny dodge works now (over ordinary uncanny dodge). The difference it makes is it just stops anyone being able to get a +2 bonus to hit, as well as any 'other' rogues being able to sneak attack them (unless 4 levels higher) by flanking. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 20:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Thanks, thats quite informative.
So do characters being attacked by an invisible or hidden creature not lose their dex bonus to ac?
With Uncanny Dodge no character loses Dex bonus to AC (if any), but can be flanked sneak attacked.
quote:
Also I think I understand how improved uncanny dodge works now (over ordinary uncanny dodge). The difference it makes is it just stops anyone being able to get a +2 bonus to hit, as well as any 'other' rogues being able to sneak attack them (unless 4 levels higher) by flanking.
Yes that is correct. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 21:12:03
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Just to complicate things…
Keep in mind that while other classes (like the Barbarian and the Assassin) also get Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny Dodge, it's only Rogues (four level higher) that can bypass Improved Uncanny Dodge.
So, as per written, a Rogue 5/ Assassin 15 character cannot sneak attack (or death attack) a 8th level Rouge, or a 5th level barbarian, etc.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 00:09:02
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Yeah thanks I understood the barbarian thing :)
Sorry Kentinal I didn't explain my question very well, what I meant was would an invisible attacker put the victim in a situation where they would lose a dex bonus (and so allow a sneak attack) |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 00:12:51
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Bah I'm confusing myself now. Just reread uncanny dodge again.
So a rogue cannot be sneak attacked if they retain their dex bonus to ac even in a situation where they would normally lose it?
I understood it as if they were in a situation where they would lose it then they could be sneak attacked, but would still have their original ac for the purposes of that attack.
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 01:27:30
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If the rouge has improved uncanny dodge, they can't be sneak attacked unless the attacker is a rogue 4 levels higher OR the rogue being attacked is helpless. (Magically held, asleep, entangled, etc.)
Otherwise, using your example of an invisible attacker sniping a rogue, no, the Improved Uncanny Dodge denies the attacker the ability to use Sneak Attack, because the rogue being attacked does not meet the prerequisites for being sneak attacked. (Namely, they still have their dex bonus.)
As long as anyone has their dex bonus, they can't be sneak attacked (with the exception of flanking).
Hope that helps?
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 02:00:00
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Still horribly confused :)
quote:
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target
I understand how this applies for improved UD so we can forget about the flanking thing.
We've always interpreted it as the rogue would be denied dex bonus to ac, so can be sneak attacked, but the rogue retains dex bonus to ac from uncanny dodge.
Is this what you mean? The descriptions of the two abilities don't seem to be written very well considering theiy're on the same page :) |
Edited by - Kaladorm on 30 Apr 2005 02:05:39 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 06:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Yeah thanks I understood the barbarian thing :)
Sorry Kentinal I didn't explain my question very well, what I meant was would an invisible attacker put the victim in a situation where they would lose a dex bonus (and so allow a sneak attack)
An invisable attacker does not deny a character with UD Dex bonus (if any) so can not be sneak attacked. The ways to lose Dex bonus if any has to result from some other action. A character with UD is more aware of what is near them, sort of a 6th sense, that makes it hard to be surprised.
Sneak attack works because of one or two conditions.
1st condition is if traget is flat footed or otherwise denied Dex bonus (if any) because of some other factor. Sleeping, held, pinned, etc.
2nd condition is if flanked which does not deny Dex bonus, just that the target is busy fighting with some one else and does not sense a person at their back (within 30 foot as far as that goes).
UD makes the character never flat footed.
IUD makes it hard to be flanked (only a rogue with 4 levels higher can fool a character well enough to flank and use the sneak attack for extra damage).
A flanked character does not lose Dex bonus, just is not aware enough about other posible foes that might attack. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 10:28:33
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| All clear now :) Thanks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 14:27:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Just to complicate things…
Keep in mind that while other classes (like the Barbarian and the Assassin) also get Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny Dodge, it's only Rogues (four level higher) that can bypass Improved Uncanny Dodge.
So, as per written, a Rogue 5/ Assassin 15 character cannot sneak attack (or death attack) a 8th level Rouge, or a 5th level barbarian, etc.
I missed this before.
" the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character."
Thus the 20 level Rogue 5/ Assassin 15 is more then 4 levels higher then either the 8th level Rogue, or a 5th level barbarian thus can be Sneak Attacked or Death Attacked. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 22:01:52
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Hmm, as written, it looks like the rog5/asn15 needs a 24th level character to flank him, but the character is still only a 5th level rogue in regards to who he can flank. (as far as the uncanny dodge power is concerned.)
Granted, I think what I'm saying is stupid, but that's the way the rules are written. I'm not emotionally attached to this idea, nor is my ego wrapped up in proving the book right. I've house ruled it so that a lot of rogue prestige classes continue to count their PrC levels as Rogue for purposes of being able to flank and sneak attack people with uncanny dodge (but in all honestly, it also has never come up in a game situation).
So, if you can find a rule that states differently, I'd be pleased. I'll go look at the errata for the PHB and perhaps post and prove myself wrong if I find something.
However, the RAW really makes it look like WoTC decided that:
A) By going into a PrC from Rogue, one of the abilities that you give up is being able to flank higher level rogues, barbarians, etc
or
B) They just screwed up.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 22:43:49
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Okay, I found an article called "All about sneak attacks" on the WotC site. It's a 4 part article, but the relevant passage is here:
quote:
When determining who can flank whom, start by counting the target's levels, and count only those levels in classes that provide the uncanny dodge class feature. Then count up the attacker's levels, counting only levels in classes that provide the sneak attack class feature. For example, a 10th-level rogue could not flank a 5th-level barbarian/5th-level rogue but the same character could flank a 5th-level barbarian/5th-level bard. Likewise, a 7th-level rogue/7th-level assassin could flank a 5th-level barbarian/5th-level rogue.
Thus, any class that gives you the sneak attack ability are the levels you count to see if you can flank, while any class that gives you Uncanny dodge counts as defense against being sneak attacked.
Which is not at all what is in the book, but, alright, I, personally, will accept this as official errata. (Of note, neither the PHB errata download or the PHB FAQ download have anything on this subject.)
The full list of articles are found here:
Part 1
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a
Part 2
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a
Part 3
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a
Part 4
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a
The quoted text is from Part 3.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 22:53:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Hmm, as written, it looks like the rog5/asn15 needs a 24th level character to flank him, but the character is still only a 5th level rogue in regards to who he can flank. (as far as the uncanny dodge power is concerned.)
Nay this is error. UD is a rogue ability that some other classes have. Your Rog5/Ass15 has 20 levels of UD the rogue ability. The levels of UD determine if flanking can achieve. Your assasion can be sneak attacked by a Barbarian 20 / Rogue 4 because las 24 levels of UD and does have the class ability to Sneak Attack. Further the Assassin also has sneak attack as a class ability. "Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack."
It is after all posible to become an Assasin without ever having taken a Rogue level. Use UD levels (from all classes that have it) to determine if able to flank another Chaeacter. If flanked can only use Sneak Attack if that is a class skill. The High level Barbarian can flank a lower level character, but can not sneak attack. The flank combat bonus still applies.
quote:
However, the RAW really makes it look like WoTC decided that:
A) By going into a PrC from Rogue, one of the abilities that you give up is being able to flank higher level rogues, barbarians, etc
or
B) They just screwed up.
A. is very common in design, Cleric PrC do not increase turning level, this in exchange for other kewl divine stuff.
B. of course is posible as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 22:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Thus, any class that gives you the sneak attack ability are the levels you count to see if you can flank, while any class that gives you Uncanny dodge counts as defense against being sneak attacked.
Grr that dose not quite sound right to me, however is more official and does make some sense, training in sneak attack.
Edit: Having read though all four articles and noticing whom wrote them, I believe the ruling is in error.
Levels of Sneak Attack indicate amount of damage, not the ability to sneak attack at all.
Sneak Attack is based on flanking, or should be. The sneak attack ability is a skill that is granted at low levels as a class feature useable if attacking someone denied Dex Bonus (if any) or if flanking. ICD sets forth the rules for flanking.
Each of course can house rule as they will, however my Barbarian would be able to sneak attack that Assasin in all of my rulings.
I guess my Barbarian can not sneak attack your Assassion. Only have 4 levels sneak attack vs. your 20 ;-) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 30 Apr 2005 23:26:26 |
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Uncanny Dodge question
