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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 18:13:16
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I swear that alignment is the biggest curse of D&D. In my experience, the majority of arguments have been caused by people using alignment as a motivation. And yet each of the Player's handbooks I own say this:
Player's Handbook 1st Edn, page 33: "Naturally, there are all shades of tendencies within each alignment."
Player's Handbook 2nd Edn, page 46: "Always consider alignment as a tool, not a straitjacket that restricts the character."
Player's Handbook 3rd Edn page 87: "Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character."
Player's Handbook V3.5 page 103: "Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character."
I once role-played a drow wizard, Karas Armgo who made sure his slaves were clothed in finery and well-fed. He did this solely because he knew that the other slaves would hate his slaves more, and that his supposedly kind treatment would alienate his slaves even from their peers. Judged on his actions he would appear kind yet his motivation was anything but.
My advice is to leave alignment where it belongs, in Realmscape and just concentrate on the story and the roleplay. Heck, even most of the deities don't act according to the alignment straitjackets some would have them wear. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 18:27:58
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| Not only that, but a lot of people simply misunderstand alignment. How many folk have you seen that say CN is obligated to do great good one day, and great evil the next, to "maintain the balance"? And how many folk think that evil alignments, particularly CE, do nothing but rape, torture, pillage, and murder all day, every day? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 18:35:15
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| I seem to remember this being done to the idiocy in Dark Sun where the description of the Half Giant was CN and changing their behavior each day. But the worst one was always true Neutral, used to shift sides when "balance was threatened"! |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 19:15:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And how many folk think that evil alignments, particularly CE, do nothing but rape, torture, pillage, and murder all day, every day?
Which, if it was the case, doesn't explain why orcs multiply to such numbers. (Or drow for that matter, but let's not mention drow and alignment.) Surely, if alignment was such a straitjacket, orcs would be too busy killing one another. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 21:19:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not only that, but a lot of people simply misunderstand alignment. How many folk have you seen that say CN is obligated to do great good one day, and great evil the next, to "maintain the balance"? And how many folk think that evil alignments, particularly CE, do nothing but rape, torture, pillage, and murder all day, every day?
Agreed. CN is ''free''. CN doesn't much care about laws nor is he always doing good or evil; he/she does what she ever wants. But this is only my observation. And my opinion is that Jarlaxle is definetly CN, it just describes him the best. CE isn't all the time raping and pillaging, yes, but these kind of doings are what they are trying to do: they are evil, but doesn't mean that every evil character does that all the time. |
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shadowni87
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2006 : 19:12:00
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| i thik to properly answer this question you would have to ask your selves; was zaknafien good or evil?i fyou can answer that than you can answer about jarlaxle |
Libera animus omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis obscurum |
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Lord Teclis
Acolyte
United Kingdom
24 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2006 : 20:33:12
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| In the Wizards offical references it states NE. No way.... I think that he is CN all the way.. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2006 : 23:50:46
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| i vote EVIL on a base of the basic selfishnes of the majority of his actions combined with plenty of evil actions... The goal justifies the means. And if the goal is your own prosperity, even better. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 01:41:26
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| hes actually not that selfish either, he let Drizzt and catie brie leave the underdark even tho he could have gotten a large ransome for them from any one of the matron mothers of Menzoberrenzan. so hes not THAT greedy or selfish either |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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shadowni87
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 10:05:56
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| zacknafien was freinds to jarlaxle just as drizzt to entrerii personaly think that zacknafien and jarlaxle share the same alighnment |
Libera animus omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis obscurum |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 02:07:13
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| and i still personally hate it when people are like....well the rule book this and the rule book that etc etc.....im talking about actual books and not just rule books and i think he is nuetral good or nuetral evil.....because the only "evil" that i can tell her committed is for the most part agisnt an evil race "drow" and when you look closely he himself does very very little actual evil things throughout the books dispite the fact that he is considered evil....so to hell with the guidebooks or rulebooks....im forming my opinion off of observations from the books and not from what some dumb rulebook tells me |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 02:49:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
and i still personally hate it when people are like....well the rule book this and the rule book that etc etc.....im talking about actual books and not just rule books and i think he is nuetral good or nuetral evil.....because the only "evil" that i can tell her committed is for the most part agisnt an evil race "drow" and when you look closely he himself does very very little actual evil things throughout the books dispite the fact that he is considered evil....so to hell with the guidebooks or rulebooks....im forming my opinion off of observations from the books and not from what some dumb rulebook tells me
Belittle the rulebooks if you will, but what they say is the official version of how things are in the Realms. If a rulebook says that someone is of a particular alignment, then, regardless of whether or not you agree, that is the official stance of the people publishing the character.
One of Jarlaxle's first appearances was when he turned his forces against their employer for a better offer -- in the midst of battle! That's hardly a noble act... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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shadowni87
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 05:18:05
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| in that civilization yuo would have done the same thing. unfortunatly its just the way things were. and i would have to personaly agree with genis |
Libera animus omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis obscurum |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 05:23:28
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Jarlaxle may be fun to read about, he may be easygoing and charismatic, but I wouldn't confuse that with him being good or even neutral. Just because he is evil doesn't mean that he has to rant about the impending doom of all good people, nor kill of underlings just becasuse the looked at him cross eyed.
Jarlaxle twists people's emotons, and pulls at their strings on purpose, just to see how they will react. For example, his "friend" Entrerei. He has been manipulating him for quite some time, including making him think that Drizzt is dead just to see how he would react with his nemesis gone.
I wouldn't trust Jarlaxle as far as a kobold could throw him, but hey, that's how I read the charcter. |
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shadowni87
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 07:06:00
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| hopfully there will be other books on him that will go deeper in him and what hes about |
Libera animus omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis obscurum |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2006 : 14:51:59
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| why is "neutral" not a choice? |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2006 : 17:29:04
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I've always thought Jaraxle to be more controlled than Chaotic in his dealings, and as for Good / Evil I'm not sure. True he thrives in a evil city but as he states in one of the books he is a survivor much like Drizzt's dad Zak Nafien (I think spelling is right sorry if not) he really seems a paradox of Dark Elven society.
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 01:07:01
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I think in the Road of the Patriarch we will see both Entreri and Jarlaxle's true colors. I cant wait for it!!! |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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yargarth
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2007 : 04:44:47
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| I belive that he is neutral but appraently a book states that he is neutral evil. I personally think is is shifting neutral because of Salvatores ROP. |
"You take a step, then another. That's the journey. But to take a step with your eyes open is not a journey at all, it's a remaking of your own mind."
-Orson Scott Card
Ender in Exile |
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unknown warrior
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 19:44:41
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| jarlaxle is really good but he can't help what he is a drow. drows see what is consider wrong to be right,so jarlaxle probably knows what he does is wrong but thinks its ok cause hes a drow and thats his excuse if someone calls him evil or chaoic it just what his people r and no matter what he does he can't escape it.unlike drizzt who successed in do so.And he only a mercenary cause thats another way for him to say that he not evil hes just doing his job to live and survive.And the greed of money just adds to his image of being evil. so he does whats in his limits.to do what is right so as not to be outcasted from his people.so really hes does good with in his bounds so as not to have people mkae him out to be a good guy. |
Don't stand in my way. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 01:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by unknown warrior
jarlaxle is really good but he can't help what he is a drow. drows see what is consider wrong to be right,so jarlaxle probably knows what he does is wrong but thinks its ok cause hes a drow and thats his excuse if someone calls him evil or chaoic it just what his people r and no matter what he does he can't escape it.
It's still evil.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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unknown warrior
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 03:30:09
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| yeah, but isn't r world just like the drows wrong is right and right is wrong.to not see this u must be part of the group just like all drows r part of there group.the world is amoral just like the drows world.but u can be like drizzt and realize whats really the truth of the world around u. |
Don't stand in my way. |
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unknown warrior
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 04:24:22
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| so what i mean is be more like drizzt moral.honor is the number one thing that makes drizzt different from his people cause the drow have no since of this term. read homeland the part were drizzt teams with some one he thought to be a friend,and to win he stab his friend in the back cause he couldn't beat him face to face. so there for u can but can't call jarlaxle evil.from my first post what i meant to do was bring understand to why jaraxle is the way he is but if u truly think of it your right he truly is evil cause he knows and does care that hes evil and doesn't even try to change his ways so with that thought he truly is evil. to get to that conculsion took alot and thought and reason. |
Don't stand in my way. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 04:31:22
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I feel I need to warn you unknown warrior that the poor quality of your writing will get you ignored by many scribes here. |
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unknown warrior
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 04:38:01
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| thanx again skeptic you are a valuable allie on here. |
Don't stand in my way. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 23:15:42
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Sorry, unknown warrior, but your point isn't coming through to me at all. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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unknown warrior
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 04:39:05
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| after thinking and reasoning to a while but your right no matter what hes evil,nut helps people here and there for the fun of it.it is confusioning just all togather to explain.what i really did is reason why hes is like he is and what he could to do to be like drizzt but he just doesn't choose to enough though he knows what he does is wrong but cause hes a drow it ok.what i mean to say is try to understand the why jarlaxle might think,thats why he acts the way he does. |
Don't stand in my way. |
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Ontarah
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2007 : 21:34:14
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| I think when you first see him in Exile he can be described as NE. In that, his primary motivations are indeed just to make a profit. As the story goes on however I think he really starts shifting towards N. Sometimes he seems to act solely for profit. Other times he does things that seem kind. He feels "guilty" about betraying Zaknafein as it stakes in RotP, but he still betrayed him. Drizzt speculates in a journal entry in RotP that he does what he does for the sake of entertainment, and I really agree with his assessment. He is capable of meticulous planning, but I think most of what he does he just does to satisfy some weird curiosity. So between all the seeming alignment disparities and the huge range of behaviors, I would say CN. He does whatever he feels like doing at that particular point in time. In Menzo, he feels like acting NE. On the surface, he almost hits CG a few times, but that might all change tomorrow. |
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Warrax
Learned Scribe
Canada
128 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 01:42:56
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You know, I voted Neutral but I realized it's a bit of a mistake. NE is probably the best way to describe him. He's not evil in the sense of trying to repress others or randomly murdering things or what-not...
But he definitely has no compunctions about violence (even overt and what might seem to be excessive violence) if it gets him what he wants. He's a Romantic, I think, but he has no illusions about the world and he likes to have fun. Fun that sometimes gets people killed.
He's the most enjoyable kind of evil there is. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 20:55:37
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Jaraxle is definitely Chaotic Neutral. Chaotic is why he stayed a favored of Lloth for so long, and Neutral because he does whatever the hell he likes with little thought as to how it is viewed by others.
quote:
From the Dungeon Master's Guide v3.5, pg. 105
Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.
I believe that describes Jaraxle to a "T" |
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is jarlaxle good or evil?
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