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 Lost Level: Lord Gareth = Sir Gareth Cormaeril?
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Dargoth
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Posted - 22 Oct 2005 :  11:28:16  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was just flicking through the old Undermoutain: The Lost Level and under the Entries for Johanna and Lineus Kherrisphril it makes reference to a "Lord Gareth" who Johanna apparently loves and going off Lineus entry Lord Gareth loves her.

According to Lost level

Lord Gareth is a Paladin (no deity mentioned)

Hes lost his RIGHT ARM

Hes been involved with the leadership of the Watch (although theres no mention of a Lord Gareth in the Watch write up of City of Splendors)


According to City of Splendors

Sir Gareth Cormaeril

Publicly a member of the Holy order of the Knights of Samular

He has a Withered RIGHT ARM

Also the knights of Samular are Celebrate order so if Lord Gareth is indeed Sir Gareth then his relationship with Johanna would have created problems which may have contributed to Gareths fall

What do you guys reckon? Same guy?

Dargoths theory

25-30 years ago

Johanna Kherrispehril, Gareth Cormaeril and their 7 other companions enter Undermoutain searching for the lost level eventually they find it but 4 of the party have died along the way. When Johanna discovers the Dwarven kingdom and its Lich resident Johanna elects to stay and study the ruins of the Dwarven kingdom. She tells her Gareth to return to the surface as she has no interest in leaving. Gareth leads the remaining party members back to Waterdeep. Gareth is convinced that Johanna is only staying in the lost level because the Lich has some hold on her he may have even used enchantments on her! (after all Gareth is a Paladin and as far as there concerned all undead are evil)

Gareth organises expeditions into Undermoutain to retrieve his love Johanna and slay the Lich, he even manages to convince his friend and fellow Knight of Samluar Hronrulf to help him. Hronrulf has no idea that Gareths in love with Johanna. During there final expedition into Undermoutain Gareth saves Hronrulfs life by putting himself between Hronrulf and enemy who is about to Coup de grace the paladin however the in doing so Gareth looses th use of his sword arm to the enemys blade. The Paladins retreat back to Waterdeep and Gareth is told that despite the orders best efforts nothing can be done to repair Gareths arm. Gareth releases thats this is the end of his quest to save his love, he comes to resent and even hate Hronrulf after all Gareths sacrifice in saving Hronrulf has cost him his chance at love and even a family. Hronrulf due to the Rings of Samular is allowed to have a family when no other member of the order is allowed.. Gareths hatred of Hronrulf festers and grows until one day hes approached by a Cleric of Bane who goes by the name of Malchior.......

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Edited by - Dargoth on 22 Oct 2005 11:58:33

khorne
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Posted - 22 Oct 2005 :  20:55:38  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are we talking about the fallen paladin in thornhold?

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Dargoth
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Posted - 22 Oct 2005 :  23:56:38  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by khorne

Are we talking about the fallen paladin in thornhold?



yes

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Hoondatha
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Posted - 23 Oct 2005 :  18:54:18  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I noticed that too, when I read The Lost Level. I tend to think he's the same guy, which is sad. Johanna would hate to see what her noble love has turned into.

On the other hand, I'm not sure the ages match, nor the backstories (it's been a while since I analyzed the book and the adventure). So, I think yes, but a strong argument to the contrary could probably convince me.

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Steven Schend
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Posted - 23 Oct 2005 :  22:35:55  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't have access to the sources right now, but I'm not sure on the timing here. Good theory, though, and if you want to work it that way, more power to you.

SES
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Dargoth
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Posted - 23 Oct 2005 :  23:12:50  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

I don't have access to the sources right now, but I'm not sure on the timing here. Good theory, though, and if you want to work it that way, more power to you.

SES
Who enjoys it when there are surprises for him in the Realms



Ok cool

By the way Lost level is one of the freebies on the WOTC site

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

the Timeline actually fits together quite well

According to City of Splendors (Which is written as of 1374DR) Gareth lost the use his arm 30 years ago (1344DR) and he betrayed Hrondelf children to the Zhentarim in 1348.

The Lost level (which isnt realms dated) says that Johanna and Gareth and their adventuring company entered the lost level 20 years ago. Now when we dont have a date for Lost level but I think we can safely assume that it was before Halasters harvest (which is detailed in the last Undermoutain module) Halasters Harvest was in 1369 and 5 years have past since them. Now if Lost level occurs several years before ie between the Time of Troubles and Halasters Harvest say 1364DR then it becomes a perfect match, 1364 is exactly 20 years after 1344 so the realmlore would all match up




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Edited by - Dargoth on 24 Oct 2005 04:51:48
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The Sage
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Posted - 24 Oct 2005 :  05:27:43  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just responding to your PM Dargoth... (I can't access them properly at this time because I'm adding some new routines to SageOS)

Like Steven, I'm away from my books at the moment. Give me some time though, this is an intriguing perspective and I'd like more time to think about it in relation to what we already know.

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Hoondatha
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Posted - 24 Oct 2005 :  13:08:24  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the timing isn't right (and my impression of traitor-Gareth is that he's fairly old, like all the supposed-to-be-retired paladins of Thornhold), he might be the father of Johanna's Gareth. For a family of paladins (it's rare, I know, but isn't he also a noble?) it would make sense to pass on the name and profession.

That would mean both father and son have trouble hanging onto their arms. And maybe an allergy to magical healing.

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Dargoth
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Posted - 25 Oct 2005 :  00:40:20  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

If the timing isn't right (and my impression of traitor-Gareth is that he's fairly old, like all the supposed-to-be-retired paladins of Thornhold), he might be the father of Johanna's Gareth. For a family of paladins (it's rare, I know, but isn't he also a noble?) it would make sense to pass on the name and profession.

That would mean both father and son have trouble hanging onto their arms. And maybe an allergy to magical healing.



Johanna went into the Lost level 20 to 30 years ago which would have made Gareth Cormaeril around 20-30 years old when she went in

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Steven Schend
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Posted - 25 Oct 2005 :  03:28:37  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

If the timing isn't right (and my impression of traitor-Gareth is that he's fairly old, like all the supposed-to-be-retired paladins of Thornhold), he might be the father of Johanna's Gareth. For a family of paladins (it's rare, I know, but isn't he also a noble?) it would make sense to pass on the name and profession.

That would mean both father and son have trouble hanging onto their arms. And maybe an allergy to magical healing.



Now there's another layer of fun to consider....a curse on the Cormaeril bloodline...the eldest son is doomed to repeat the sins of the fathers, so every Gareth Cormaeril eventually loses the use of one arm, no matter how quiet or noisy a life he leads....

Well, Dargoth? Care to speculate on the source of the curse? I'd give it at least four generations of play, just for fun (or make it so old, and perhaps it'd skipped a few generations until the elder Gareth got hit hard with it due to his machinations....). After all, nothing in the Realms has less than a 60 year backstory...

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Dargoth
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Posted - 25 Oct 2005 :  03:30:13  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm the only problem Id have with that is that its a little to similar of Lyonsbane family curse

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Oct 2005 :  04:26:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Hmm the only problem Id have with that is that its a little to similar of Lyonsbane family curse



It could be some sort of variant curse... The son has so many years to accomplish some task; if he fails, then, at some point in the future, his arm will fail.

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KnightErrantJR
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Posted - 25 Oct 2005 :  04:36:14  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or if the oldest son still has his right arm by the time he is in his thirties, a werepanther bites it off . . . but the werepanther must do so only if paid, unless he is a mercenary at heart, at which point the curse reverts back to default and the mercenary werepanther must then bite off the arm for no form of recompense whatsoever . . .

Er . . . what curse were we talking about?
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Dargoth
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Posted - 25 Oct 2005 :  04:51:52  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Hmm the only problem Id have with that is that its a little to similar of Lyonsbane family curse



It could be some sort of variant curse... The son has so many years to accomplish some task; if he fails, then, at some point in the future, his arm will fail.



I prefer my orgional idea where the loss of Gareths arm is th catlyst for his hatred of Hlodref and him selling out his family to the Zhents

If its some external curse it takes alot of the wind out of the cause of his betrayl

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Oct 2005 :  05:42:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Hmm the only problem Id have with that is that its a little to similar of Lyonsbane family curse



It could be some sort of variant curse... The son has so many years to accomplish some task; if he fails, then, at some point in the future, his arm will fail.



I prefer my orgional idea where the loss of Gareths arm is th catlyst for his hatred of Hlodref and him selling out his family to the Zhents

If its some external curse it takes alot of the wind out of the cause of his betrayl



Not if he feels that some act (or failure to act) of Hronrulf's was what caused him to fail, thus triggering the curse...

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 11 Feb 2021 :  21:09:48  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some serious thread necro here.

Just rereading Ring of Winter taking notes and came across mention of Gareth of Waterdeep who went searching for the Ring of Winter and lost all his family members to the "Curse of the Ring"


Looked in City of Splendours Waterdeep and found only one Gareth - Gareth Cormaeril.

Found him mentioned on this thread.

I'm wondering if perhaps Gareth suffered his wound questing for the Ring of Winter, lost the use of his arm, his entire family (brothers and their children) perished, he lost his active service in the knights. In his grief he shacked up with Johanna Kherrispehril and broke his vows and finally set him on the path to evil (after losing her too).

Then he decided to get even against Hronulf (who he probably blamed for causing him to lose an arm) and sold information about his children to the Zhents.



Given that Gareth is a Cormaeril and distantly from Cormyr, i'd expect him to have more family members around (heirs are important to nobles and i suppose aspiring or former nobles), but he doesnt, so perhaps he is the last of his line, and the "Curse of the Ring" is blamed.

Just a thought

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Feb 2021 :  21:35:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a sound theory.

I'll note, though, that several noble Cormyrean families have Waterdhavian branches. Given the distance and the lack of quick communications, the Waterdhavian and Cormyrean branches are essentially separate families -- they're more like strongly allied independent companies, rather than one being a subsidiary of the other.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 11 Feb 2021 :  22:00:39  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's kind of how I view it as well. But given the cormaerils of waterdeep were once of cormyr I'd expect then to follow similar rules and ideals, so they'd have a patriarch or matriarch and probably call the head a lord among themselves and try and behave noble with the ultimate goal of achieving noble status wherever they went.

Lord Gareth must have been head of his branch, but when they all got wiped out he was just plain old sir Gareth.

I think the Knights of Samular were looking for some rings as well. Perhaps Lord Gareth intended to find an equally powerful magic ring to replace the ones they lost (like the knights of the shield replaced the shield of silvam).

His quest could have been to gain the ring which would give him more clout among the knights but also possibly give him a chance at nobility in waterdeep (people dream even if it is unrealistic) and then disaster takes it all away.

Maybe Eric will chime in with some thoughts.


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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Feb 2021 :  22:54:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Some serious thread necro here.

Just rereading Ring of Winter taking notes and came across mention of Gareth of Waterdeep who went searching for the Ring of Winter and lost all his family members to the "Curse of the Ring"


Looked in City of Splendours Waterdeep and found only one Gareth - Gareth Cormaeril.

Found him mentioned on this thread.

I'm wondering if perhaps Gareth suffered his wound questing for the Ring of Winter, lost the use of his arm, his entire family (brothers and their children) perished, he lost his active service in the knights. In his grief he shacked up with Johanna Kherrispehril and broke his vows and finally set him on the path to evil (after losing her too).

Then he decided to get even against Hronulf (who he probably blamed for causing him to lose an arm) and sold information about his children to the Zhents.



Given that Gareth is a Cormaeril and distantly from Cormyr, i'd expect him to have more family members around (heirs are important to nobles and i suppose aspiring or former nobles), but he doesnt, so perhaps he is the last of his line, and the "Curse of the Ring" is blamed.

Just a thought




Does it say what shriveled his arm? I ask because if he was looking for a ring and there's a shriveled arm..... put a ring on and shriveled his arm? Maybe even aged him somehow?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Feb 2021 23:13:09
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Feb 2021 :  03:16:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd not have the curse come from a ring. That's a little too literal, for me.

Instead, I'd have it as a result of encountering some near-artifact, or some fell entity that nears demon lords in power. Either could be the source of a non-inherited curse that shriveled his arm and made it useless... And if you're a paladin, having your arm become useless and not being able to do anything about it would be devastating -- certainly enough to cause a paladin to fall.

This curse could have been encountered whilst searching for the Ring of Winter, and thus attributed to it. And tying it back to Gary's idea further, Gareth blames Hronulf for the curse. Maybe Gareth (correctly or incorrectly) thinks that Hronulf could have prevented it, or maybe he thinks (again, correctly or incorrectly) that Hronulf somehow caused it.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 12 Feb 2021 :  21:51:46  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking over the entries again, its not quite a perfect fit but its pretty good.

The Lost Level says Lord Gareth lost his arm during his last foray into Undermountain and so he could no longer reach Johanna Kherrispehril. It says he recently became a senior official in the Waterdeep Guard. Johanna entered Undermountain over 20 years ago

City of Splendours says Sir Gareth officially retired from the Knights of Samular 3 decades ago thanks to a grievous wound that left him with a withered arm. He has continued to serve as exchequer in the Halls of Justice.
It also says Sir Gareth sold the location of Hronulf's children to the zhents in 1348 DR (which is roughly 20 years ago from the time of the book).

I reckon Lord Gareth was looking for the ring in Undermountain. Suffers a wound that injures his arm and means he has to retire from active duty (perhaps he cant bend it properly), but it isnt entirely useless.

Then his family die, he shacks up with Johanna, but she heads into Undermountain along with Gareth and Hronulf (about 1347/8) - Gareth is looking for the ring still. He suffers another wound saving Hronulf and this time his arm is entirely useless and it withers completely. He blames Hronulf and sells info to the Zhents out of anger as he can no longer visit Johanna who remained in Undermountain to study the Melairykyn (or search for the ring).


If you consider the Knights of Samular to be comparable to the Waterdeep Guard then his rise to become exchequer is possibly a senior advisory role. It doesnt contradict anything explicitly, the wound causes his retirement from a justice related service, it eventually leads to his arm withering completely, he has essentially lost his arm (he can't even move it). He rises to a senior position in the justice related service but is now evil.


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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 12 Feb 2021 :  22:04:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd not have the curse come from a ring. That's a little too literal, for me.

Instead, I'd have it as a result of encountering some near-artifact, or some fell entity that nears demon lords in power. Either could be the source of a non-inherited curse that shriveled his arm and made it useless... And if you're a paladin, having your arm become useless and not being able to do anything about it would be devastating -- certainly enough to cause a paladin to fall.

This curse could have been encountered whilst searching for the Ring of Winter, and thus attributed to it. And tying it back to Gary's idea further, Gareth blames Hronulf for the curse. Maybe Gareth (correctly or incorrectly) thinks that Hronulf could have prevented it, or maybe he thinks (again, correctly or incorrectly) that Hronulf somehow caused it.



The sounds of Cania freezing echo mysteriously in the background as hell freezes

Putting this one in the record book. Sleyvas came up with a simple unconvoluted idea and was told it was too literal.

Poor chap, hope that curse can be removed so his arm can be healed.... but it sounds like Johanna has him taken care of at least.... oh wait, not anymore... Poor chap.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Feb 2021 22:07:16
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 12 Feb 2021 :  22:23:45  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For those who missed it, there's a great short story in Elaine's anthology in the Best of the Realms series.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 13 Feb 2021 :  16:06:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers Eric, i'll look out for that one when i get to it

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Feb 2021 :  18:00:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd not have the curse come from a ring. That's a little too literal, for me.

Instead, I'd have it as a result of encountering some near-artifact, or some fell entity that nears demon lords in power. Either could be the source of a non-inherited curse that shriveled his arm and made it useless... And if you're a paladin, having your arm become useless and not being able to do anything about it would be devastating -- certainly enough to cause a paladin to fall.

This curse could have been encountered whilst searching for the Ring of Winter, and thus attributed to it. And tying it back to Gary's idea further, Gareth blames Hronulf for the curse. Maybe Gareth (correctly or incorrectly) thinks that Hronulf could have prevented it, or maybe he thinks (again, correctly or incorrectly) that Hronulf somehow caused it.



The sounds of Cania freezing echo mysteriously in the background as hell freezes

Putting this one in the record book. Sleyvas came up with a simple unconvoluted idea and was told it was too literal.

Poor chap, hope that curse can be removed so his arm can be healed.... but it sounds like Johanna has him taken care of at least.... oh wait, not anymore... Poor chap.



It's too literal for me to have the Curse of the Ring manifest as a curse from another, entirely unrelated ring.

It's like this exchange in the movie Mrs. Doubtfire:

Mrs. Doubtfire : He was quite fond of the drink. It was the drink that killed him.

Miranda : How awful. He was an alcoholic?

Mrs. Doubtfire : No, he was hit by a Guinness truck. So it was quite literally the drink that killed him.

Silly example, but it's a similar thing, in that the implied curse and what's considered to be its manifestation are not really related. The fictional Mr. Doubtfire wasn't actually killed by consumption of alcoholic beverages, it was a truck used to transport them. It's a fun exchange, but linking "the drink" to that particular death is a stretch, at best.

That's why I'd have the Curse of the Ring take form from something other than a curse from a ring.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 13 Feb 2021 :  18:13:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is odd that in the book they refute the curse repeatedly and yet bad things happen to those that seek it.

I think I get what woolly is saying, the ring itself didn't hurt anyone. Gareth lost the use of his arm because someone hit it with a weapon. Alusairs beau got killed by a bounty hunter, Pontiac got killed by an ice assassin. But the ring appears to make those seeking it to become unlucky and perhaps have a sympathetic attraction for evil doers at the same time.

Personally I'd blame it on the cult of frost targeting those that search for it

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Feb 2021 :  19:15:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

It is odd that in the book they refute the curse repeatedly and yet bad things happen to those that seek it.

I think I get what woolly is saying, the ring itself didn't hurt anyone. Gareth lost the use of his arm because someone hit it with a weapon. Alusairs beau got killed by a bounty hunter, Pontiac got killed by an ice assassin. But the ring appears to make those seeking it to become unlucky and perhaps have a sympathetic attraction for evil doers at the same time.

Personally I'd blame it on the cult of frost targeting those that search for it



Indeed. It's like the supposed curse on those who found King Tut's tomb. As Wikipedia points out:

"A study showed that of the 58 people who were present when the tomb and sarcophagus were opened, only eight died within a dozen years. All the others were still alive, including Howard Carter, who died of lymphoma in 1939 at the age of 64. The last survivors included Lady Evelyn Herbert, Lord Carnarvon's daughter who was among the first people to enter the tomb after its discovery in November 1922, who lived for a further 57 years and died in 1980, and American archaeologist J.O. Kinnaman who died in 1961, 39 years after the event."

Other real-world examples of a little hype resulting in legends of the supernatural believed by many include the Bermuda Triangle or the Mayan calendar predicting the end of the world. In both cases, take a fact or two, wrap it in some sensational claims, and boom, you've got an absolutely unsupported thing believed by many to be real.

Take those people Gary mentions, add one or two others, claim they all sought the Ring of Winter and died in that quest, and boom, you've got the Curse of the Ring.

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