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Uzuul
Acolyte
5 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 17:20:34
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Hi everyone,
I apologize if this is not the right forum or if this has been discussed before.
We all know that Waterdeep keep their identity secret (save for the Open One), BUT do they keep their identity secret from each other?
Obviously some will know for certain that another one is a fellow Lord.
Many questions come to my mind and I will just list a few not to bother too many of you if this was discussed before.
Does a “who knows who” (with degree of certainty) list exists someplace?
When a new Lord is chosen, is he given the identity of all the others?
When a Lord is resigning, are they any measures taken by the other ones?
If a Lord resigns and he suggests someone as a replacement, does he get confirmation that the person he suggested was accepted/rejected?
What is the extent of the Open Lord knowledge?
OK, I’ll stop here for now.
Thank you
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 21:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzuul
Hi everyone,
I apologize if this is not the right forum or if this has been discussed before.
We all know that Waterdeep keep their identity secret (save for the Open One), BUT do they keep their identity secret from each other?
I *could* be totally wrong on this, but the impression I've gotten from some of the novels is NO, they don't keep their identity secret from each other.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 21:22:29
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Yeah, from what I've read, they all know each other, and know who the others are. Particularly the Open Lord, since he alone can demand the unmasking of another Lord (which keeps impersonations to a minimum).
When Khelben was nominating Danilo, he wound up naming off several Lords right then...
There's never been any discussion on what happens when someone chooses to leave the Lords, as Danilo did, or as Khelben did, for a time. If they leave voluntarily, I'd expect that they are simply expected to keep quiet. Of course, there could also be a geas or something that prevents them from naming their former co-Lords...
I'd imagine that all a leaving Lord could do is suggest a replacement, and that the decision would be left to the remaining Lords. As the retired one is no longer a Lord, I'd think that they'd not be told if their nominee was accepted or not, unless the new Lord did so. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 21:27:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's never been any discussion on what happens when someone chooses to leave the Lords, as Danilo did, or as Khelben did, for a time. If they leave voluntarily, I'd expect that they are simply expected to keep quiet. Of course, there could also be a geas or something that prevents them from naming their former co-Lords...
You're right! I've wondered that myself. Surely they don't just trust the old Lord to keep quiet (accidents happen...). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 22:02:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's never been any discussion on what happens when someone chooses to leave the Lords, as Danilo did, or as Khelben did, for a time. If they leave voluntarily, I'd expect that they are simply expected to keep quiet. Of course, there could also be a geas or something that prevents them from naming their former co-Lords...
You're right! I've wondered that myself. Surely they don't just trust the old Lord to keep quiet (accidents happen...).
Well, if they trusted the person as a Lord, and the person chose to leave voluntarily, I don't see why they wouldn't continue to trust them. Sure, accidents could happen -- but that also applies to Hidden Lords like Brianne, or not-so-Hidden Lords like Mirt. Heck, we know of one recent Lord to whom something happened -- Nindil Jalbuck. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 01:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's never been any discussion on what happens when someone chooses to leave the Lords, as Danilo did, or as Khelben did, for a time. If they leave voluntarily, I'd expect that they are simply expected to keep quiet. Of course, there could also be a geas or something that prevents them from naming their former co-Lords...
You're right! I've wondered that myself. Surely they don't just trust the old Lord to keep quiet (accidents happen...).
Well, if they trusted the person as a Lord, and the person chose to leave voluntarily, I don't see why they wouldn't continue to trust them. Sure, accidents could happen -- but that also applies to Hidden Lords like Brianne, or not-so-Hidden Lords like Mirt. Heck, we know of one recent Lord to whom something happened -- Nindil Jalbuck.
True--the system is already flawed, and "everyone knows" that Mirt is a Lord (though they technically don't).
I also wonder what it must be like to be a Lord, but also be married to someone who wonders why you are not there if the Lords (masked, of course) are involved with some public event, etc. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I also wonder what it must be like to be a Lord, but also be married to someone who wonders why you are not there if the Lords (masked, of course) are involved with some public event, etc.
I'd assume that most Lords either have some method of disguising their absence as something else ("Hey, I think I'll pop down to the Jade Jug to hoist a few!"), or they share their secret with their spouse.
Besides, we never see all of the Lords assembled in one place at one time. The public doesn't even know how many Lords there really are, so if they see 12 Lords, they'll assume that's the assembled lot of them. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:12:51
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| The Lords often wear "special" helms that obscure their identities and "convert" their voices, but given the events in RotA, it seems that there are ways for strangers to know the identities of the Lords without needing to do much work. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd assume that most Lords either have some method of disguising their absence as something else ("Hey, I think I'll pop down to the Jade Jug to hoist a few!"), or they share their secret with their spouse.
Oh, I thought Lords were supposed to keep the secret even from people close to them.
quote:
Besides, we never see all of the Lords assembled in one place at one time. The public doesn't even know how many Lords there really are, so if they see 12 Lords, they'll assume that's the assembled lot of them.
I see, I stand corrected then. I thought there was a point in one of EC's novels where the Lord's were all out in public and they listened to a speech by Danilo, but maybe they weren't all there. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 04:01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
The Lords often wear "special" helms that obscure their identities and "convert" their voices, but given the events in RotA, it seems that there are ways for strangers to know the identities of the Lords without needing to do much work.
I'd ignore the events you're thinking of in RotA. They not only contrast given lore, but they also ignore the rules.
I think that scene was simply more of Denning making the bad guys seem more powerful, and white hats that he didn't create act like fools.  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 04:12:44
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| Yeah, without spiralling back into that whole discussion, I can see why its harder to detect and dispel shadow weave magic, but it seems rather . . . unbalanced if shadow weave magic can just completely ignore weave magic. Being a big fan of Waterdeep and thinking Brian is a rather under stated lord, and therefore one that I often used in my Waterdeep campaigns, I really didn't particularlly like that scene. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 04:13:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd assume that most Lords either have some method of disguising their absence as something else ("Hey, I think I'll pop down to the Jade Jug to hoist a few!"), or they share their secret with their spouse.
Oh, I thought Lords were supposed to keep the secret even from people close to them.
I can't recall where, but I do recall reading somewhere that while Lords are encouraged to keep their Lordship secret, they are allowed to share the knowledge with loved ones. I could be mistaken about this, though -- I can't recall where I saw that reference.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertBesides, we never see all of the Lords assembled in one place at one time. The public doesn't even know how many Lords there really are, so if they see 12 Lords, they'll assume that's the assembled lot of them.
I see, I stand corrected then. I thought there was a point in one of EC's novels where the Lord's were all out in public and they listened to a speech by Danilo, but maybe they weren't all there.
That's at the end of Elfsong.
At the time of the novel, there were 16 Lords (I used the number 12 in error). Because of everything that happened, the Lords secretly increased their numbers to 20.
According to the Campaign Guide of the City of Splendors boxed set (which confirms that all the Lords know each other), you usually will not see more than 7 Lords gathered at once, save for on Shieldmeet. On that day, the Waterdhavians get to see "all" 16 Lords at the same time. The citizens think that's all of them, but the Lords know better. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 04:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yeah, without spiralling back into that whole discussion, I can see why its harder to detect and dispel shadow weave magic, but it seems rather . . . unbalanced if shadow weave magic can just completely ignore weave magic. Being a big fan of Waterdeep and thinking Brian is a rather under stated lord, and therefore one that I often used in my Waterdeep campaigns, I really didn't particularlly like that scene.
I didn't feel that the depiction of Brian in that scene matched the previously-given descriptions of him. It's another of the many examples of established characters being misrepresented in that trilogy.
But... Getting back on topic, that scene did mention another Lord, one who wasn't written up in the recent City of Splendors: Waterdeep sourcebook. One of the named Lords in that scene was a lady mage named Deliah the White. And that sentence contains about all that we know of her.
Another, overlooked Lord: Asper. In a short story in Realms of the Underdark, Ed named her as a Lord of Waterdeep. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Berzerker_prime
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 04:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't recall where, but I do recall reading somewhere that while Lords are encouraged to keep their Lordship secret, they are allowed to share the knowledge with loved ones. I could be mistaken about this, though -- I can't recall where I saw that reference.
I believe you may be thinking of the part in Dream Spheres where Danilo reveals his Lord's Helm to Arilyn. She's all flabberghasted that he would make such a breach and show her, but he explains that (a) while the Lords aren't technically supposed to tell even their spouses, all the Lords do it anyway. And (b) it doesn't really matter since he's giving it up anyway.
It seems to me that it's one of those rules that is flagrantly broken, but no one cares. I don't know of any instance where a Lord tells someone other than their spouse (or, in the case of Danilo and Arilyn, spouse-to-be), so it may be just an understanding between them that it never goes any further than that.
Berz.
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*******
Berzerker_prime
Nen lend ah lalaith lim, darthol i lú aphadad govatham.
Gaming quote of the week:
"Why does everyone assume I have a plan?"
"Because you were giving the orders!"
- Scondora and Elara, Fellowship of the Ever-Falling Troll.
RIP Alton Goodbarrel. We shalt always remember thee for thy ability to find traps... the hard way... even when yon 350 lb Dwarf walks over them first without triggering them. |
Edited by - Berzerker_prime on 25 Oct 2005 04:46:54 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 02:41:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't recall where, but I do recall reading somewhere that while Lords are encouraged to keep their Lordship secret, they are allowed to share the knowledge with loved ones. I could be mistaken about this, though -- I can't recall where I saw that reference.
*nods* On one hand, it is reasonable to allow this. But on the other hand, the more people who know about a secret, the more likely the secret will...cease to be a secret. Some people just have loose lips. And then there is always magical scrying.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
That's at the end of Elfsong.
At the time of the novel, there were 16 Lords (I used the number 12 in error). Because of everything that happened, the Lords secretly increased their numbers to 20.
According to the Campaign Guide of the City of Splendors boxed set (which confirms that all the Lords know each other), you usually will not see more than 7 Lords gathered at once, save for on Shieldmeet. On that day, the Waterdhavians get to see "all" 16 Lords at the same time. The citizens think that's all of them, but the Lords know better.
Oh, I see--thanks for pointing that out. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 02:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another, overlooked Lord: Asper. In a short story in Realms of the Underdark, Ed named her as a Lord of Waterdeep.
Yes! And in City of Splendors, she seemed just plain too involved in certain events for her not to be a Lord. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 17:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another, overlooked Lord: Asper. In a short story in Realms of the Underdark, Ed named her as a Lord of Waterdeep.
Yes! And in City of Splendors, she seemed just plain too involved in certain events for her not to be a Lord.
As far as I'm concerned, Asper still is a Lord. That's why I left room ... both for DMs to add their own and because I might overlook a reference! :-)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Uzuul
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 20:45:12
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Thank you all for your thoughts.
Aside of the fact that I think that having the Lords not know each other opens a lot more of scenarii opportunities than the opposite; I believe that one has to consider that if any organization wants to remain secret, the best guarantee to preserve secrecy is to keep each member identity secret from the other members; at the very least this must have been an important topic the Lords discussed when considering their operating structure.
If, as it is clearly stated in various canon sources, the Lords know each other and since they are now infiltraded by (at least) the Unseen, one has to consider that the secrecy of their identities is, at the very least, compromised.
I also have another question; if one is to be made a Lord, is there some kind of ceremony, and more importantly what king of information package is he given by the Lords? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 19:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzuul
Thank you all for your thoughts.
Aside of the fact that I think that having the Lords not know each other opens a lot more of scenarii opportunities than the opposite; I believe that one has to consider that if any organization wants to remain secret, the best guarantee to preserve secrecy is to keep each member identity secret from the other members; at the very least this must have been an important topic the Lords discussed when considering their operating structure.
Agreed. I am reminded of a quote by Ben Franklin, I believe: "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead."
People are just not always reliable when it comes to keeping secrets (even if they are trying to keep things secret). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 23:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzuul
Thank you all for your thoughts.
Aside of the fact that I think that having the Lords not know each other opens a lot more of scenarii opportunities than the opposite; I believe that one has to consider that if any organization wants to remain secret, the best guarantee to preserve secrecy is to keep each member identity secret from the other members; at the very least this must have been an important topic the Lords discussed when considering their operating structure.
While this is true, it does cause problems. One: if all of the Lords kept their identities secret from one another, how would the other Lords know if one had been replaced? Sure, it's happened already, but that one is a special case. If all of the Lords were secret, then anyone could replace a Lord without the others knowing.
Another issue is the recruiting of new/replacement Lords. If all of the Lords kept their identities secret, then this would be necessary for any new Lords. But how can the others decide to elevate someone to their ranks if they don't know that person? Having each Lord select their own replacement won't work: it again also for the easy insertion of an imposter. It also would allow someone to blackmail a Lord into stepping down. And if a seated Lord was slain without nominating a replacement, we come back to the first original issue: how to pick a replacement without knowing them.
Sure, it would be possible to set up a system by which all of the Lords kept their identities secret from each other. But it would be exceedingly difficult, and it would needlessly complicate a system that's already proven to work quite well. |
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Lords of Waterdeep ... secret identity?
