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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 05:31:39
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Some recent posts have made me think about the new core classes that have popped up in WOTC books of late, and how they might fit into the FR as a whole. I would be interested in seeing how other scribes feel about these classes and how they fit them into their own campaigns.
New Core Classes:
Favored Soul (Miniatures Handbook, Complete Divine)
Healer (Miniatures Handbook)
War Mage (Miniatures Handbook, Complete Arcane)
Marshal (Miniatures Handbook)
Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior)
Samurai (Complete Warrior)
Hexblade (Complete Warrior)
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine)
Wu Jen (Complete Arcane)
Warlock (Complete Arcane)
Scout (Complete Adventurer)
Spell Theif (Complete Adventurer)
Ninja (Complete Adventurer)
Archivist (Heroes of Horror)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
On top of all of that, are there any core classes native to a particular setting or d20 supplement that you think have a particular use in FR (such as mariners from DragonLance).
Just wanted to stir the pot and see what everyone thinks.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 08:00:37
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| Ive been thinking of retooling the Warlock and turning it into a "Spellfire wielder" class |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 08:46:01
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| I think there are too many core classe and such existed when PHB came out (Barbarian should never have been made a class, let alone a core one). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 14:19:02
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I disagree Kentinal. I believe a lot of people wanted a class like that. You add the prowess of the fighter and the ability to (for a temporary time) to turn the tide of the battle with the rage ability. But, I digress:
The asian classes (Ninja, Shugenja, Wu Jen, and Samurai) are great if you want to have any visitors from Kara-tur. It gives your standard PCs something to try to figure out and understand.
The Swashbuckler, Scout, and Spell Thief all look to have a place in the Realms as well. Swashbuckler probably exist all up and down the Sword Coast and in the Sea of Fallen Stars. Scouts would be all around as there always new human expeditions starting up their own towns in the area (The Shallows). Spell Thieves just fit in the whole Swords & Sorcery the Realms is known for.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 14:53:17
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| A difference on opinion on what should be called a core class, yup the never ending list (because it keeps growing) are interesting and all will fit into the Realms. One of these days (if not already occured) I expect to see a vast increase of NPC core classes, instead of just Com or Expert there will be Smith, Farmer, etc. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 16:02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
One of these days (if not already occured) I expect to see a vast increase of NPC core classes, instead of just Com or Expert there will be Smith, Farmer, etc.
I also wish they would add a few more NPC classes....I realize that the ones they have do cover the "everday folk" of the Realms, but when you have to go through and build them, it takes a long time.
But to answer KEJR's original question....Since we don't have the miniatures handbook, or Heroes of Horror, I can't comment on those , but I agree with Crennen that the Oriental classes would come from Kara Tur, and the Swashbuckler from the Sword Coast. The Hexblade I could see as maybe being part of the Zhentarim. The War Mage and Warlock, Tifus and I are having a difference of opinion on if they fit in the Realms, lol. The Spirit Shaman I feel could be from either Rasheman, or maybe parts of Arglaron. The Scout in the North, and the Shaar. And right now I'm trying to convince Tifus to let me play a Whisper Gnome Spell Thief, that hails from fallen Blindingstone. 
*I apologize for any really bad spelling errors, in that I just woke up, and haven't had nearly enough coffee...* |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
Edited by - Kes_Alanadel on 29 Oct 2005 16:15:07 |
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Thysl
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 17:54:24
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I'll chime in as well, though I have not had any coffee either.... mehh
I believe the Marshall (awesome class BTW), the Scout, and the Swashbuckler are the easiest to integrate and stray least from 'Realmsian' characters.
I'll allow an experienced PC (you've gotta know how to play the regular classes) to attempt one of the other, non-asian, classes. They have to make a good character concept, though. Warlocks are right out; I just don't understand them (course I think I spent a grand total of 1 minute looking at it, stupid bad guys).
The Asian classes are great, but I used to play L5R RPG so I'm fairly burny with the old 'Japanese High Fantasy' thing. |
There are as many nights as days, and the one is just as long as the other in the year's course. Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness.
--Carl Jung |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 18:25:56
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I agree with the Warlock thing - they are almost too abnormal as a core class. It's like Spellfire without Mystra to me.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 23:00:27
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Heh heh, and to actually chime in on my own topic:
Favored Souls fit in fairly well, I think, since the whole "chosen one" child born with a destiny thing ties in pretty well, and its interesting to see how a person "born" with their divine channeling power fits in with trained clerics and the like.
I can also see healers being a pretty good fit with Ilmater, Eldath, and Lathander especially, so those don't seem to hard to deal with. They are merely clerically trained priests that don't really learn about turning undead and spend special attention on learning about healing powers.
War Mages strike me as sorcerers that have been specifically trained to focus their attention on combat magic. I can see such training coming from the War Wizards of Cormyr (though obviously, they train many different types of arcane casters for different roles. The War Mages would just be the direct combat support types), or from large organized mercenary forces like the Flaming Fist (the latter opinion, which I can easily see, came from a poster on the Paizo boards).
Marshals are a class I really wish more of my players would actually look into. I think they are very interesting, and they are fairly easy to fit into a campaign as miliary types with formal training that focuses on coordination multiple soldiers, not simply attacking in an orderly, well trained manner one's self (as such training would be in the fighter class).
As for swashbucklers, I think ANY large city is going to produce swashbucklers, warriors that learn good solid fencing but are more acrobatic and impetuous than a standard soldier's training would indicate. Again, not a difficult one to integrate, especially among elves and humans.
Samurai, Shugenja, Wu Jen, and Ninja work as "quick" version of these characters to present a character with a Kara-Tur back ground, though I still like the OA versions of most of these better. Still, I think that the OA samurai work as a sort of "ancestral warrior" and the CW samurai works as just a trained knight, so they may not be mutually exclusive, except in name.
Hexblades immediately made me think of drow males. They are warriors that learn about arcane magic . . . hm . . . what are drow males allowed to excel in? This wouldn't be the only place I would use them, but it was the first one that pops to mind. I don't picture them coming from places that are pleasant and have a rosy outlook on magic though. Definately from places that favor the more sinister application of magic, even in its warriors.
Spirit Shamans remind me of barbarian cultures that would have more advanced and competant spellcasters than just adepts. I can even picture some orcish tribes having them. Since this is the Realms, I would make sure that their ability to draw power from the spirits is stilled tied to a divine patron, however, though there are many that would easily grant them this power. Spirit Shamans, though devoted to one patron, would see their more direct day to day religion as dealing with the spirits that serve their deity in this world, more directly.
I don't know that Warlocks have to be "spellfire" type weilders. Their eldritch blasts are still a refined representation of the weave, and not pure weave energy manifest, as spellfire is. I think of it more like a force effect, almost pure magic honed to a useful end, but not a direct tap of the weave. I personally would see Warlocks though as those that had almost no talent for the Art and have to use some sinister means (such as pacts with outsiders) to connect them to the Art in a manner that allows them to use it. As such, I would have a hard time seeing elves taking this class at all, since they are VERY close to the Weave.
Scouts are another class that seems to be pretty easy to adapt to the Realms. Just stealthily trained martial characters, or spies trained with some useful skirmish abilities. Heck, I don't even agree with the CA description when it mentions dwarves rarely taking this class. I can picture many Shield Dwarves picking up this class.
Spell Thief is a strange one. I really don't have a problem with it, but at the same time, I haven't thought of a good reason for the mix of powers, or even where it might be common. Perhaps non standard practitioners and renegades in Thay or Halruaa? Still thinking about it. Maybe Vhearunite drow?
Archivists from Heroes of Horror I discussed on the Heroes of Horror thread. I think they might be interesting, but they would have to have a divine patron, and I may even go with Bookwyrm's suggestion that they not pick up non clerical spells, though they may find some interesting domain spells in this manner. They would also help to explain some of the existing Divine Spellbooks that float around the Realms as well. Besides just teaching clerics prayers that aren't in the PH, I mean. I can picture temples of Oghma, Deneir, or the gods of magic producing some of these along with clerics.
Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror also strikes me as a sort of specialist sorcerer that has spent all of their time honing their sorcerous powers toward the pratice of necromancy. For anyone that has not seen them yet, they are much like War Mages, with a limited spell list, focusing on death, fear, and negative energy, and little else, but with a bit more survivability than a standard or specialist mage. Like a War Mage, they know all of their spells when they acheive a new level.
Any thoughts on core classes from other sources. Yes, I know there are more than enought to choose from, but many different sources trip our imagination. The other one I would mention specifically is the variant cleric, the cloistered cleric from Unearthed Arcana, that has less combat capability but more skill points to reflect greater study. I can see Oghma, Deneir, Milil, Mystra, Azuth, Velsharoon, Savras, and any god that has an order not specifically dedicated to combat having these. On the other hand, I would have a hard time picturing Torm, Tempus, Helm, or gods of that stripe having many of them.
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2005 : 05:42:41
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| I say the more the merrier. I mean, a lot of people want to super-specialize their characters and I think this helps them. Doesn't mean you have to use all of them. :) |
Huzzah! |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 17:19:03
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Now, bear in mind that I haven't actually READ the spell-thief class (bah, pesky details!)... however, there was a couple of mage/thief and fighter/mage/thief kits in the Complete Book of Elves for some precedent (though they, of course, weren't FR).
Also, it was proven in a short story in one of the early Realms of... books (possibly Realms of Valor) that a spell thief did exist in Netheril that allowed a magic dead person to steal all the magic of a wizard. The group was thought exterminated by the fall of Netheril until one showed up in the story. But that seemed more like a one-shot ability than a full class (or maybe a multiple ability, once you used up one mage's magic you went looking for the next one).
So a spell thief of some sort does have some precedent. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 18:27:10
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| Thanks for the info Hoondatha . . . I'll have to look into that since it does give a possiblity of some kind of precedent. |
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DestroyYouAlot
Seeker
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 15:13:50
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| I prefer "variant" versions of core classes, such as a "dungeoneering" rogue or urban rangers, i.e. more skill-based variants than magic-based ones. I tend to be very careful with allowing "weird" magic in my campaign, as it can tend to be unbalancing and hard to control. I figure there are enough prestige classes out there for magic-wielding characters (which, certainly, have their own pitfalls) for them to earn special tricks later on, if they're good. ;) |
Edited by - DestroyYouAlot on 01 Nov 2005 15:14:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 14:01:03
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Interesting, i was just wanting similar feedback on the incarnum classes in another thread.
Favored Soul (Miniatures Handbook, Complete Divine) - easily drops in anywhere, but I would say you see more of them in Mulhorand than anywhere.
Healer (Miniatures Handbook) - not a common class I would think, as the more common cleric would be found more often. However, in Damara amongst the priesthood of Ilmater it might be more common.
War Mage (Miniatures Handbook, Complete Arcane) - this would be a very specialized and not widespread group. My first thought is the war wizards of Cormyr, but except for the name they are typically treated more like the royal wizards/investigators. However, there could be a group that trains specifically for war. I also see this class amongst the elves training alongside their bladesingers.
Marshal (Miniatures Handbook)- I see these guys amongst the more organized mercenary military groups. I don't see them as adventurers, as an adventurer would tend to choose to change classes. As a result, I think that high level Marshalls would be a rarity amongst the standing armies of a given country unless said country performed a lot of warfare (Thay, Rashemen, Waterdeep, Tethyr, etc....).
Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior)- all over the place
Samurai (Complete Warrior)- kara-tur obviously
Hexblade (Complete Warrior)- this one would be a rare find. I can picture them in magic rich societies (Calimshan, Thay, Halruaa)... but even then uncommon and probably passed from some local master to a handful of apprentices.
Shugenja (Complete Divine)- Kara-tur
Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine)- Definitely Rashemen, the Uthgardt, and the Shaar.
Wu Jen (Complete Arcane)- Kara-tur, but also with their focus on elemental magics... I can see these being down in Zakhara
Warlock (Complete Arcane)- unbalanced piece of crap. They need to reduce the eldritch blast damage... once that's done the class becomes viable. In that instance, I could see them in Narfell, Dambrath, Calimshan, and Halruaa (not Thay as they would be considered akin to sorcerors... someone who didn't have to work for their power) and amongst the followers of Set, Shar, and Talos.
Scout (Complete Adventurer)- easy drop in everywhere
Spell Theif (Complete Adventurer)- this one would be a rare find. I can picture them in magic rich societies (Calimshan, Thay, Halruaa)... but even then uncommon and probably passed from some local master to a handful of apprentices. However, there is definitely canon evidence of a TYPE of spellthief which steals a wizards ability to cast spells in one of the novels (I think realms of magic).... though it doesn't follow this class's powers exactly I don't believe.
Ninja (Complete Adventurer) - Kara-Tur
Archivist (Heroes of Horror) - never read it
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)- never read it
Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Khaa
Seeker
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 13:13:26
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| The diversity of the classes appeals to me too. I dont like that you have a limited number of things you can be. With many different classes, not only can you tailor a character to your taste, you can really toss up the game and make it very interesting. |
Ever want another forum? Well try out www.icewinddale.com |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 17:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
A difference on opinion on what should be called a core class, yup the never ending list (because it keeps growing) are interesting and all will fit into the Realms. One of these days (if not already occured) I expect to see a vast increase of NPC core classes, instead of just Com or Expert there will be Smith, Farmer, etc.
Hey, Ed himself did the smith back in 1e Dragon.  |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 18:16:29
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Why the need for more 'core classes' (adding more kinda defeats the purpose of 'core')? All of these classes (I haven't seen them, but can somewhat imagine them) seem morelike multiclass combinations with a feat package merged into a single class... sounds more like powerplaying to me.
Also what is the difference between an Expert with high skill ranks in smithing (variants) and a suggested (NPC)class of smith? Less work for a DM or player to create a smith? What's next, NPC classes like Dungsweeper of Loudwater, Lantern Lighter of Waterdeep? |
Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 09 Nov 2005 18:18:17 |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 21:18:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Ive been thinking of retooling the Warlock and turning it into a "Spellfire wielder" class
That's a great idea. It's almost a perfect fit.
That's what's fun about the core classes. All these choices! The possibilities are endless. I really like the warlock, the scout, the ninja, and the swashbuckler. The samurai is interesting in that certain role-playing elements must (or should) be in place before levels are allowed. A Waterdavian thieves guild could be a group of Shou ninjas and wu jen, adding that element to a Waterdeep campaign. The warmage could be a member of the Guard, a specialized war wizard of Cormyr, or just another sorcerer type who happens to develop these powers. The same with the scout.
I think that if the books are owned and used, the new core classes should be considered. If there's a chance that a player wants to run a hexblade or a warlock, there should be at least a small explanation prepared, just like with a wizard or a fighter. "How did the character become a warlock/hexblade/scout/etc?"
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 13:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Why the need for more 'core classes' (adding more kinda defeats the purpose of 'core')? All of these classes (I haven't seen them, but can somewhat imagine them) seem morelike multiclass combinations with a feat package merged into a single class... sounds more like powerplaying to me.
It's just tweaks. Haven't you ever had a player, or been a player, who wanted to be a certian class, but wanted to swap out features of your class for something more appropriate to your concept?
These are just "offical" and "balanced" versions of that. I agree that just about everything can be done with the core classes, but these alternate classes provide a greater degree of focus on a concept or bring in entirely new concepts (such as the warlock).
I personally can't tell you the number of times I have made an elven cleric and wanted to just ditch the whole medium and heavy armor abilities. (This probably comes from playing 2nd edition specialty priests though) |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 00:45:28
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| In a way, you can look at Dread Necromancers and War Mages as specialist sorcerers. |
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New Core Classes and their possible place in FR
