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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 15:37:37
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True on that end Sage.
But even if we provide 'explanations' that doesn't necessarily detract because its far and removed from normal human experience.
Darth Maul we know was created by breaking down slowly him and a dedicated campaign of torture from childhood to adult until he was pure and raw killing machine.
However, that itself is so hard to imagine that even though we know the answer. He maintains his mystique. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 16:43:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
We don't know WHY Palpatine became such a thorough evil doer but he is.
With a planet full of gungans I would have turned evil and genocidal as well  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 17:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
We don't know WHY Palpatine became such a thorough evil doer but he is.
I would say that both Epis. III (film and novelisation) and Dark Lord both provide us with a unique but basic insight into why Palpatine was the person he eventually become.
There is mystery, yes. But that mystery only forms the subtle undertone of Palpatine's own transformation into an instrument of the Dark Side... the ultimate expression of his human desire for control and power.
I haven't read the novelization, and it's been a while since I saw the movie, but I'd have to guess (based on the themes of the movies). . . Fear? Drive for dominance, because of a need to control the causes of one's fear?
As far as I can tell, the "Will to Power" is dead-on, Sage.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 17:42:45
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But good point, I think part of what I was driving at (good arguements all from everyone, kudos) was that some of the best villains represent something more than what they are. They become something of a stand-in for the concept.
For example, Palpatine and Power or even Palpatine as the embodiment of the Empire/Fascism.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 20:45:13
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I don't think Star Wars has enough depth or logical coherence to deserve credit for having anything meaningful to say about fascism.
But hey, that's just me. I always wind up as the grumpy, curmudgeonly nay-sayer in Star Wars discussions. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 20:59:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I don't think Star Wars has enough depth or logical coherence to deserve credit for having anything meaningful to say about fascism.
But hey, that's just me. I always wind up as the grumpy, curmudgeonly nay-sayer in Star Wars discussions.
Shhh. Careful, now. Someone's going to sneak up on you and try to run you through with a plastic lightsaber. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 21:36:54
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quote:
I don't think Star Wars has enough depth or logical coherence to deserve credit for having anything meaningful to say about fascism. But hey, that's just me. I always wind up as the grumpy, curmudgeonly nay-sayer in Star Wars discussions.
In today's society its revolutionary to say
1. It's bad.
2. Its leaders rarely care about the militarism of it.
3. It's bad.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 22:57:42
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So speaketh the hamster!
What about them villains? Anyone want to 'know' more about 'em? (with the exception of Charles, of course ;-) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 00:32:26
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What? I apparently don't want to know anything about them!? ;-p
;-)
I gotta admit, I think we need a Villains series for Fzoul, Manshoon, Ssass Tam, and others. Frankly, they deserve more than to simply be left up as the whipping boys of Shandril. I think that fans of the Realms would like to see them be shown as powerful, ruthless, and dangerous rather than the Marx Brothers of the Realms. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 01:07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
What? I apparently don't want to know anything about them!? ;-p
;-)
I gotta admit, I think we need a Villains series for Fzoul, Manshoon, Ssass Tam, and others. Frankly, they deserve more than to simply be left up as the whipping boys of Shandril. I think that fans of the Realms would like to see them be shown as powerful, ruthless, and dangerous rather than the Marx Brothers of the Realms.
That would mean a novel entirely focused on these villains, it would be better if they can be focused on something like:
1) Manshoon versus Manshoon in the Manshoon Wars, quite a lot of potential to exploit.
2) Fzoul....perhaps focusing on how the Chosen of Bane fights a double-frontal war with the Cyricists in the Zhentarim and the goodly organizations. Or perhaps more interesting would be how Fzoul "blow up the pact on Khelben's face which he and Khelben had made previously." Lots of betrayal and backstabbing, common in villains .
3) Szass Tam, quite difficult to exploit. The worthy point about him is how he interacted with Larloch and how Szass Tam uses the Death Moon Orb for his visionary goals. There hadn't been any talk on how he exploited the Death Moon Orb. It would be interesting to throw in the Phaerimm Versus Szass Tam where the Phaerimm and Szass Tam fights for control of the Death Moon Orb.
4) Telamont Tanthul-this very cool and calm man hadn't much area to exploit save for his history.
5) Countess Sarya-a new villain with potential. Best focused on her role in the Seven Citadel's War and the events leading to her House banishment from Cormanthyr. The Last Mythal Series doesn't focus much on Sarya. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 01:46:23
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I have high hopes for Blackstaff adding some spin to the characterization of some of the other big name npc's. Then again, I'm not really certain what direction the novel's going to go.
I'd love to see more on Manshoon. He has definitely become very interesting as the Zhent storyline shifts. I can't help but think that he's been talking to Khelban. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 03:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
1) Manshoon versus Manshoon in the Manshoon Wars, quite a lot of potential to exploit.
I would love to see something like this... I think it could even be a series unto itself, with each book focusing on a different Manshoon clone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 03:46:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
1) Manshoon versus Manshoon in the Manshoon Wars, quite a lot of potential to exploit.
I would love to see something like this... I think it could even be a series unto itself, with each book focusing on a different Manshoon clone.
I don't know... It almost has a "Dr. Doom vs the Doombots" ring to it. And Marvel/FF fans should know how that turned out .
Although, if it explored the actual Manshoon Wars as a conflict as well, I'd also be for such a novel.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 06:35:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
1) Manshoon versus Manshoon in the Manshoon Wars, quite a lot of potential to exploit.
I would love to see something like this... I think it could even be a series unto itself, with each book focusing on a different Manshoon clone.
I don't know... It almost has a "Dr. Doom vs the Doombots" ring to it. And Marvel/FF fans should know how that turned out .
Although, if it explored the actual Manshoon Wars as a conflict as well, I'd also be for such a novel.
See, what I'd like to have is three or four novels. Each one starts with (or shortly after) all of the Manshoon clones wake up. Each book would follow one clone thru the Manshoon Wars, and then focus on their actions after the Wars. How did the clone survive, where are they now, and how did they get there?
And I'd really like it if at least one of the novels focused on a clone other than the official three. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 06:46:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
1) Manshoon versus Manshoon in the Manshoon Wars, quite a lot of potential to exploit.
I would love to see something like this... I think it could even be a series unto itself, with each book focusing on a different Manshoon clone.
I don't know... It almost has a "Dr. Doom vs the Doombots" ring to it. And Marvel/FF fans should know how that turned out .
Although, if it explored the actual Manshoon Wars as a conflict as well, I'd also be for such a novel.
See, what I'd like to have is three or four novels. Each one starts with (or shortly after) all of the Manshoon clones wake up. Each book would follow one clone thru the Manshoon Wars, and then focus on their actions after the Wars. How did the clone survive, where are they now, and how did they get there?
Sounds good... although I'd probably like each of the books to focus a little, at least initially, on how the clones ended up in the places they did before they all wake up.
quote:
And I'd really like it if at least one of the novels focused on a clone other than the official three.
Also, their interactions with the "real" Manshoon shouldn't form the core of the tales... but rather a background plot. The books themselves, as I see it, should focus squarely on the developments of the clones... especially if they intended to be made into viable NPCs in the Realmslore.
-- In fact, now that I think about this... this isn't the first time you and I (and Steven) discussed our views and wishes on a series of books focusing on the Manshoon Wars . Maybe if we keep talking about it... WotC will take a hint  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 22 Mar 2006 06:48:25 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 12:24:04
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I would also like to see a 'happy' end for such a villain series, which basically means the good guys fail. Not in WotSQ style failure, mind you.
SPOILER
For Elistraee to take such an unstable character as Halisstra as priestess and make her the one to possibly be able to deliver a killing blow to Lolth (whose truename might really be Lolo) and then not even support her in terms of showing her that Danifae was merely playing her.
Also the series was not about Elistraee fighting Lolo..errr...Lolth, it was about re-establishing contact with the goddess.
Spoiler end
I would like to see a struggle with the good guys the antagonists. A fresh outlook on that entire issue... and before anyone mentions Malik again, he isn't IMO a true protagonist, more like a bumbling sidekick so to speak. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 15:33:33
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Personally I think I've read enough Realms books about the powerful, legendary figures such as Elminster/The Seven Sisters etc. I'm not sure that I want to read about their counterparts from the "evil" side of the picture. To be honest I don't imagine that people like this are frequently involved in "hands-on" work of their own, and realistic challenges at these levels would seem to result in rather a lot of destruction.
What I would like to see is a book or series looking at villains from the low end of the scale. A juniro Red Wizard working in an enclave somewhere abroad, learning how to deal with foreigners and to keep his chief happy, could be interesting. Similarly I'd like to read about low ranking members of the Zhentarim, or the Shadow Thieves, or perhaps some followers of Mask, much more than I would like to read about their ultimate superiors. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 18:37:13
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The problem is that frankly sometimes the Realms "lower end" characters really aren't that interesting. I enjoyed Waterdeep's big compilation but honestly I kept thinking "It's a trio of stupid nobles, a seamstress, and a Beholder cultist." I mean, I love anything Ed and Elaine do but where was Khelban? Piergion? You know, the people that MATTER?
Drizzt and Miss Moonblade are the only 'adventurer' characters I'd really liked since Alias and her Paladin.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 21:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The problem is that frankly sometimes the Realms "lower end" characters really aren't that interesting.
'Tis a matter of opinion. I like some of the smaller players much more than some of the larger ones.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 21:31:13
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I would also like to see a novel about the Manshoon Wars, or at least a collection of short stories about the wars... some told from the first-person perspective of different Manshoons.
quote:
The problem is that frankly sometimes the Realms "lower end" characters really aren't that interesting.
I understand, and that's unfortunate. I wouldn't mind stories about actual low level folks, who aren't capable of destroying small cities, who don't always interact with the big mojos, but who are written as if those characters believe they matter. A series of novels of them coming up in the world could be fantastic... if it's done well. But, it can't be written as if to say, "here are some Yo's with swords... [meanwhile] 'OH LOOK, IT'S STORM, AIN'T SHE PRETTY!!! [back to Yo's]." |
Edited by - GungHo on 22 Mar 2006 21:31:42 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 21:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The problem is that frankly sometimes the Realms "lower end" characters really aren't that interesting. I enjoyed Waterdeep's big compilation but honestly I kept thinking "It's a trio of stupid nobles, a seamstress, and a Beholder cultist." I mean, I love anything Ed and Elaine do but where was Khelban? Piergion? You know, the people that MATTER?
I can see how much you like Khelben and Piergeiron; so much you can't spell their names.
I find this attitude of "zomg give me big players with a gazillion levels" a bit sad, also. Ah, the readers that keep cliche-crammed, overpowered, godmoding Gary Stus and Mary Sues living. Viva la kitsch. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 22:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The problem is that frankly sometimes the Realms "lower end" characters really aren't that interesting. I enjoyed Waterdeep's big compilation but honestly I kept thinking "It's a trio of stupid nobles, a seamstress, and a Beholder cultist." I mean, I love anything Ed and Elaine do but where was Khelban? Piergion? You know, the people that MATTER?
I can see how much you like Khelben and Piergeiron; so much you can't spell their names.
I find this attitude of "zomg give me big players with a gazillion levels" a bit sad, also. Ah, the readers that keep cliche-crammed, overpowered, godmoding Gary Stus and Mary Sues living. Viva la kitsch.
To add to that, if ones life really matters so little even to the person living it then you always have to look at the big uns.
Personally I would love to see more stories of normal Realms people thrust in un-normal situations. Reading about The Simbul blasting you-name-what to pieces again and again, at first you go 'wow' then after a wee bit you start to wonder if that is all...
Hell, I think I'd even enjoy a little story about El doing nothing else but cooking dinner... it would at least be a change |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 22:32:37
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Winterfox, with the option of completing my resume and going to my FR book to look up their names' spelling (which are deliberately "fantasy orientated"), my choice was clear. Frankly, I'm alittle disappointed you'd bring that up.
[quote=Mace Hammerhand]Personally I would love to see more stories of normal Realms people thrust in un-normal situations. Reading about The Simbul blasting you-name-what to pieces again and again, at first you go 'wow' then after a wee bit you start to wonder if that is all...[/quote]
Seriously though, don't we have enough "small scale" adventurers? Why exactly do the books exist except to provide us with information about the major players and NPCs of the realms? They should flesh out those rather than adding to the tapestry.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 22:41:08
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I myself rather think that a character's fascination is not a measure of power or importance to the fundaments of the world -- rather, it is a matter of characterization and motivation.
I'm drawn to passionate people, heroes or villains, who want what they want and will do what it takes to get it, whether that's destroying the drow who killed their loved ones, winning the heart of the princess, or just cooking a really good meal (to borrow Sir Hammerhand's example). My favorite parts of books aren't always the big, cataclysmic action scenes, but the small interactions, the little bits of narrative brilliance that can accompany any character, great or small.
I want to read about people I'm made to care about, who exist beyond the two dimensions that plague underdeveloped "NPCs" and overwrought monuments. They don't need power -- they just need passion.
Like Cale and Riven, for instance (apropos the "Villains" thread -- I contend that they are what antiheroes should be). Awesome as they are, they're small potatoes in the "management of the world" -- they're not the superpowers feuding over the balance. But they're interesting, evolving characters driven by deep wants and passions.
This is part of why villains appeal to me (they seem more apt to be driven by their desires), but I generally can't stand the "dwarfs the heroes in might!" villains. I prefer villains who are roughly comparable in that sense to the heroes (Drizzt vs. Entreri, for instance) -- the only difference, really, is motivation and level of hunger.
(I can't believe I'm going to do it, but. . .)
To quote Achilles, from Troy: "I want what all men want -- I just want it more."
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 22:51:04
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For me, I think that Piergeiron is a character that NEEDS a book since we know so little about him and yet he casts such a looming shadow over the realms. Ditto Manshoon, Fzoul, and the like.
Cale and company are wonderful but Arilyn Moonblade wouldn't be half as interesting to me if she didn't explain as much as she does about the Elven Royal Family.
I admit, part of this is my hatred of 'adventurers.' I hate the implication that there's professional do-gooders out there except for the PCs.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 22 Mar 2006 22:52:06 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 23:13:10
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Uh? Whut?
PCs as in RPG PCs?
Aside from DragonLance and maybe the Avatar characters, and both of these only marginally so, I swear I have never seen a player make a roll for Drizzt when he had to swing his scimitars.
You hate professional do-gooders?
Guess you hate Arilyn and Danilo then... or the late Azoun, or Laeral, or Storm? All these were or still are adventurers. Now where the hell would a fantasy novel be without the adventurers who live through the adventure?
Unless of course, I misunderstood whatever you meant in that sentence because the meaning is not clear. If your editor, Charles, is only half as vicious as I am with my own prose then you probably get every manuscript back in shreds, or it looks like someone was bleeding all over it.
A couple of years back I was part of a writing circle aptly called the Wolf Pack, if you couldn't take the heat of aggressive, constructive criticism and people tearing your work apart you had no place in it. Maybe such a wolf pack would help you actually clarify your sentences... *rant off* |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 23:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm drawn to passionate people, heroes or villains, who want what they want and will do what it takes to get it, whether that's destroying the drow who killed their loved ones, winning the heart of the princess, or just cooking a really good meal (to borrow Sir Hammerhand's example).
Wow, I've been knighted...yay me
quote:
To quote Achilles, from Troy: "I want what all men want -- I just want it more."
Cheers
Erik, I hope you do not mean that abysmal movie... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
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Villains in Novels
