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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 09:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Frankly, on Evermeet I can't believe its just a little "scandal" that 'The Crown Princess has died and her half-elven child has her moonblade....hahaha Gold Elf SUCKERS!'
Heh. I would agree with this accessment, but it's not the sort of thing Evermeet's elves would talk about when humans (or scribes) are around.
That said, you'll see a bit of this attitude come into play in the upcoming Songs & Swords books. 
  Please, tell us more, Elaine... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 10:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I don't know, that's pretty much the essence of Greenwood writing...
provided they're all statuesque silver haired ladies.
;-)
Charles, although I know that you meant this as a joke, I must comment on it. I completely, whole-heartedly agree with what Blueblade and Lady THO said. To me, Ed is a master storyteller, one of the greatest of all time - along with Howard, Tolkien, and Zelazny.
You yourself commented that the Realms, how you see it, should evoke a "sense of wonder". I know of no other author who does this better than Ed. Every time I read something that Ed has written, I feel INSPIRED by every word, every little detail. Whether we are speaking of a novel or a game supplement, his Realms are full of details, and feel ALIVE.
Yes, the Bearded Master has dramatically changed my perspective on fantasy literature and gaming. Ever since the good old grey 1st edition boxed set, I have been in awe how Ed's imagination works. Every time I write a campaign, I try to instill that same "sense of wonder" and attention to detail to my Realms.
I do not consider myself an expert in fantasy literature, and thus I can only speak of how I see and feel about this subject.
Ed may not be the first author in fantasy literature to do it, but his villains and heroes are complex beings with individual desires and motivations. Just take a look at either i]Silverfall or i]City of Splendors[/i] to see what I mean by this. Or, another good example of this might be Elfshadow[/i] by another master storyteller, Elaine Cunningham.
But, speaking of certain "silverhaired ladies", have you noticed that Ed might be hinting at them (and El) slowly going insane in his novels? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 10:20:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Charles says the heroes in FR fiction tend not to be intelligent, and Mace says that by and large, they're too chivalrous to fight dirty even when the stakes are high. (At least, I think that's what you guys were saying. Please set me straight if I misinterpreted.) I'd be very interested to hear whether other readers agree or disagree with these assessments.
Dorn springs to mind as a hero that strikes me as a "battlewise" warrior, who seems intelligent (as I see it) and doesn't seem to shy from using dirty tactics to bring his foes down.
Danilo is certainly intelligent, and I don't think he could be described as "too chivalric" either. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 10:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
But, speaking of certain "silverhaired ladies", have you noticed that Ed might be hinting at them (and El) slowly going insane in his novels?
I'll believe that when they, you know, actually exhibit signs of it. Detrimental signs, particularly, like, oh... loss of control, hallucinations, loss of memory, personality disorders and whatnot. Not jumping the bones of a random stranger who's all too happy to oblige.  (Unless the definition of "slowly going insane" is nothing more than nymphomania.) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 11:17:31
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I think that Ed has said on several occasions that his original intent for Elminster has always been that he's been playing with a few volumes short of a library.
(One opener in a old Dragon Magazine I have had Elminster talking to corpses in a tomb....and not with magic)
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 14:22:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Frankly, on Evermeet I can't believe its just a little "scandal" that 'The Crown Princess has died and her half-elven child has her moonblade....hahaha Gold Elf SUCKERS!'
Heh. I would agree with this accessment, but it's not the sort of thing Evermeet's elves would talk about when humans (or scribes) are around.
That said, you'll see a bit of this attitude come into play in the upcoming Songs & Swords books.
Please, tell us more, Elaine...
Thanks for asking, but no can do. I think the confidentiality clauses in the new WotC contracts were downloaded from Vatican.com, from the oaths priests take before they're allowed to work the confessional booths.  |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 15:18:41
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| I wouldn't want to say that WotC is excessively concerned with confidentiality, but I am pretty sure my phone is tapped. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 15:26:58
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It's all starting to make sense now ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 21:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Charles says the heroes in FR fiction tend not to be intelligent, and Mace says that by and large, they're too chivalrous to fight dirty even when the stakes are high. (At least, I think that's what you guys were saying. Please set me straight if I misinterpreted.) I'd be very interested to hear whether other readers agree or disagree with these assessments.
Well... here's where you start going into a little vague area.
Are you asking if the characters are said to be intelligent or if they actually do things that are intelligent, and are they said to be chivalrous or do they do things that are chivalrous.
Cause, if you're looking for displayed intelligence, Artemis Entreri is brighter than Elminster ever thought about being. Of the Chosen, Khelben is probably the brightest bulb in the drawer.
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Thanks for asking, but no can do. I think the confidentiality clauses in the new WotC contracts were downloaded from Vatican.com, from the oaths priests take before they're allowed to work the confessional booths.
Excuse me, I've got something on my shirt, do you mind speaking into my lapel? |
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Ebonshine
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 22:14:26
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You know, despite the interesting topic and how it has expanded I've been thinking about what kind of hero I'd like to see in a novel.
I think a character like Taegan Nightwind, I think thats the avariel's name in the dragon madness trilogy. I really like this character and he is definitely one of my favorites in the realms.
He is charismatic and intelligent and powerful... and self-centered, which makes him real and believeable as a character. One of my favorite parts from the first book was when one of the students of his fencing school gets him involved in the Cult of the Dragon's machinations and as the student dies the avariel looks down at him and yells at the corpse saying how he didn't want to get involved and also something along the lines of "I didn't even like you!"
Add to that, and unlike many whom post here, I am not a fan of elves in the least be they half-bred, dark-skinned, or what have you, Taegan despises his people and their way of life and chose a more human lifestyle for himself. That speaks volumes, in my opinion, about what an interesting character he is. Sure you have Drizzt not liking the Drow and their way of life but has their ever been a light-skinned elf that would rather live as a human and with humans?
So I guess I prefer heroes that have flaws and realism... For example, wouldn't it add a little to the character if say Drizzt was envious and/or insecure that Catti-Brie had sex with Wulfgar? Or say Khelben had an alcohol problem or drug addiction or some other kind of vice that he keeps quiet about? Or say Danilo has to deal with an illegitimate child from a previous relationship? Nothing that would be a huge detriment to the plot but it would make them a little more real and interesting in my opinion.
Jack O'Neill from the Stargate:SG1 tv series is another type of hero I'd like to see in a realm's novel. An older, cantankerous character that is argumentative and sarcastic with most others, including powerful villains and allies, but is willing to risk his life for others and for what he believes is right.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 02:59:47
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For me,
If I want a hero for Forgotten Realms I'd like a hero who personally becomes synomous with a region of FR. For me I'd like a hero for Unther, Mulhorandi, Amn, or Chessenta. A lot of the action of Forgotten Realms seems to be centered around the Heartlands and I personally wouldn't mind a little bit of change in that respect.
I'd also like a hero whom personally is a tad 'different' in attitude frankly. Some unlikeable qualities mixed with some likeable ones honestly. Ebonshine indicated this, though I personally don't think that the qualities he perscribed necessarily fit the characters he mentioned. A lot of Forgotten Realms simply doesn't have the taboos we have on Earth. I imagine there's no such thing as 'illegitimate' on FR for example save in terms of settling monarchial disputes.
I keep coming back to Conan but what's likeable about any version is that he's greedy and violent in addition to whatever positive qualities he might possess. A lot of Forgotten Realms characters tend to act like Americans playing Everquest honestly. Not necessarily the leads but often the background characters like Shandril's Company of the Bright Spear.
Someone really and visibly unlike a normal person from our time in morality and attitude would be a refreshing change.
If we do include more "doing intelligent things" characters, another type I'd happen to enjoy seeing would be a Jason Bourne character (movie not Ludlum). Either villain or hero, a character who wins because he's smarter than his enemies rather than being a bigger badass. The reason I escaped isn't because I beat 15 orcs with a sword but because I happened to have set loose their horses for my clean getaway...or something like that. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Sir Vengeance
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 07:24:40
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What I would expect from a hero in FR novels would be a hero that is well-balanced type, a hero that is self-sufficient, studious and independent.
So far from the novels I read, I really weary of the moral decay in the famous NPC's (it seemed it is written for the author's personal enjoyment than the reader.) as well as the self-whining(quite excessive in RAS novels) are quite tiresome these days.
I think a real FR character for me should combine the qualities from the already established characters of the FR novels. Here are what I think an expected FR character in my option should have:
1) Outrageous and insidious thinking, a good example would be in the RotA where Galeron proposed and persuaded the Chosen to gang up with him to perform a commando-style infiltration of Shade Enclave to sink the city to the ground. I like this kind of characters, outrageous and yet able to persuade unconvinceable NPCs to join him.
2) Charisma, charm and the aloof attitude- of course, Taegan Nightwind would be a good reflection of this., obvious anyway. But of course, I expect that the charisma and charm are not to be used for "morally wrong and morally decaying" ideas but rather to impress and gain opponents' respect and awe.
3) Adaptability, flexibility and creativity: Hard to think of examples that are seen in today's FR novels, but more common in other non-FR novels. Whereby the hero creatively bends and uses unexpected resources around him and in him to fight the enemy.
4) Daring, eager, decisive to act and act with no regrets, and reaps enjoyment in his acts. -I enjoy reading characters that are more action-oriented than the "plan & talk first" characters. I prefer heroes going into more action and engaging in almost constant action, dealing blows after blows to the foe without allowing the foe to recover. Also, I expect the hero to enjoy his actions, for I really tire of heroes like Drizzt lamenting this and that. A hero should act and not regret doing it but enjoy doing it. Such as Galeron, Manshoon, Fzoul: Galeron dares to use shadow weave magics against any foe and gains exhiliration for his actions. Manshoon and Fzoul act with no hesitation like torturing and killing without any hesitation, this is decisive behaviour which I favor.
5) Not disgusted by violence and fights, rather enjoys the fighting: A good example is the Hunter Blades Trilogy, Drizzt as the Hunter, going round killing orcs here and there with no mercy shown to the cowards and giving a good blade stab to those who fight like true warriors. He relishes the combat and this is something I expect for my idea of a hero.
6) Inspirational and fearless-a bit similar to charisma but different concept. Able to rally people to their banner by inspiring them to join him and denying fear and pain. An good example would be Bruenor-fearless and inspirational, no fear of this or that.
7) ***Not prone to social vices and basic desires of the mortal shell: Of course, the hero should be different from Elminister and the Chosen. For a hero on a mission must and should not be prone to such ideas.
My idea of the hero need not incorporate all of the six ideas but rather should incorporate most of the ideas. |
Vengeance is justified on righteous grounds, for righteous vengeance cannot be denied by anybody. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 08:46:19
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| Just a warning, I removed a post in this thread and the poster should realize why I did so. If he/she can't control herself, then his/her posts will continue to be removed. We do have a CoC for a reason, if you can't follow it, then maybe you should move on. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 08:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Just a warning, I removed a post in this thread and the poster should realize why I did so. If he/she can't control herself, then his/her posts will continue to be removed. We do have a CoC for a reason, if you can't follow it, then maybe you should move on.
I concur.
Kuje and myself have already provided warnings on the potential for unproductive discussion in this scroll (on pg. 6). Since only one scribe was involved in this recent straying and the offending post has been removed... I'm content to leave it open.
Please take the time to read the CoC fellow scribes and know it well before you post in topics such as these. Thank you.
Now, back to the "Heroes in Novels" discussion...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Apr 2006 08:54:15 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 08:57:59
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Pity, I wonder what the poster said.
Oh well, my curiousity shall have to go unsatisfied I suppose.
I'd also like to see some more interactions between family in FR.
Spoiler Elminster's Daughter reveals that Alusair is Elminster's granddaughter and frankly I'd like to see some interaction between him and her over it SPOILER. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 01 Apr 2006 08:59:14 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 14:58:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
But, speaking of certain "silverhaired ladies", have you noticed that Ed might be hinting at them (and El) slowly going insane in his novels?
I'll believe that when they, you know, actually exhibit signs of it. Detrimental signs, particularly, like, oh... loss of control, hallucinations, loss of memory, personality disorders and whatnot. Not jumping the bones of a random stranger who's all too happy to oblige. (Unless the definition of "slowly going insane" is nothing more than nymphomania.)
I think you see some subtle hints in Silverfall of loss of control. I do not speak of "excessive" signs or apparent personality disorders - just occasional signs of mental decay, which may (or may not) slowly lead to insanity. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 15:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Frankly, on Evermeet I can't believe its just a little "scandal" that 'The Crown Princess has died and her half-elven child has her moonblade....hahaha Gold Elf SUCKERS!'
Heh. I would agree with this accessment, but it's not the sort of thing Evermeet's elves would talk about when humans (or scribes) are around.
That said, you'll see a bit of this attitude come into play in the upcoming Songs & Swords books.
Please, tell us more, Elaine...
Thanks for asking, but no can do. I think the confidentiality clauses in the new WotC contracts were downloaded from Vatican.com, from the oaths priests take before they're allowed to work the confessional booths.
I am eagerly waiting for anything new on Danilo, Arilyn and Elaith - they are some of my favorite characters in the Realms. I have read Elfshadow five or six times, and I still enjoy reading it. IMHO it is one of the top fantasy books of all time, and it changed my perspective on the Realms (and Waterdeep) a lot (along with Ed's novels)  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Talinfein
Acolyte
Germany
14 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 22:30:22
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I have just skimmed over many of the previous post (7 pages is a bit much) so please forgive me if I repeat something that has already been said.
I have noticed some people here asking for more "realistic" (for lack of a better term) characters and have given exmples of "A Song of Ice and Fire". I agree that Martin´s characters tend to feel at least different than many FR characters, but I´m not sure they would fit within the FR. In the FR heroes DO exist and good does triumph over evil (most of the time, maybe too often, but that´s a different point). So I like my FR heroes to be a bit larger than life and most of all - I like variety. I like reading about Drizzt and Elminster, but I also like reading about characters like Jack Ravenwild, Erevis Cale (and Riven for that matter), and so on. I think neither do we need a new rush of cardboard fantasy heroes, nor do we need to see more of the dark, brooding, not-so-hero-like-at-all-heroes that seem to be all the rage currently. I like my heroes to be heroes not just as a protagonist, but actually do heroic things.
That said, I would really appreciate it if some of Ed Greenwood´s heroes (whose novels by the way still rank among my favorite FR reads), did a little bit less eye-rolling and being annoyed at even the greatest dangers. Yes, they are experienced, yes they´ve seen it all, but it gets really annoying to see them do that all the time. And MANY of them do in different kinds of stories.
Concerning Salvatore´s stories, I agree with some of the criticism about Drizzt´s angst, but Salvatore has been moving him more and more away from that in recent books. I don´t think we´ll be seeing too much of that in the future. As for predictability, these books are an ongoing series and as such cannot present the same kind of character developments that single novels, short series or movies do. If the main characters went through consistent change that would be labeled unrealistic as well. Plus, we also need to consider the target audience of FR novels and realize that certain plots and character developments are probably not going to happen (sad as that may be).
When I look at current TV series´ like Rome or Deadwood I see a lot of things I like, if for a more mature audience. BUT, I have a feeling that the real central characters of those shows are the places and environments the stories happen in, not the characters themselves. Yes, some characters are lovable, others outright despicable, but they could be replaced with different characters and the stories would very probably still remain interesting. This could actually make for an interesting experiment in the realms for a series set in one of the great cities where the paths of nobles and commoners interweave as all are trying to make their way in life. Sort of like Rome goes Waterdeep. Now that is a series I would love to read. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 22:56:11
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A good writer can weave a complex story with many interesting characters going about their business, but in most cases, when you look at the story analytically, you see that ultimately, there are one or two characters who are central to the proceedings. In Rome, ultimately, the focus is on the two legionnaires. In Deadwood, it's on Swearingen and the marshall.
George Martin's epic yarn, however, does seem to defy this principle, at least so far. Having just finished the most recent volume, I'm still unable to pick out one or two or three characters and say, here, by gosh, these are actually our protagonists. Although I would say that Tyrion and Jon are good candidates. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 09:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Talinfein
If the main characters went through consistent change that would be labeled unrealistic as well. Plus, we also need to consider the target audience of FR novels and realize that certain plots and character developments are probably not going to happen (sad as that may be).
Hmm. Define "consistent change" and why you think it might be labeled unrealistic? I'm also curious as to what sort of plot and character developments you think are unlikely to happen due to the nature of FR and its target audience. |
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Talinfein
Acolyte
Germany
14 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 09:51:02
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| I didn´t mean to say that there are no protagonists in the stories of Rome and Deadwood, but I can see them easily replaced with other protagonists or the role of protagonist to pass on to another character. In many fantasy stories that is not the case. You know who your main characters are and if they are gone, the story´s over. With series like the ones mentioned, the stories could go on and on and viewers would still come back even if some of their favorite characters were gone. I´m not sure that is the case with the Drizzt books for example. Also, many new series (Battlestar Galactica, Lost, the above mentioned and others) seem to be heading into a different direction than the typical TV series of the 80´s and 90´s, where some characters and plotlines would make several appearances, but basically most episodes were self-contained. These new series however have very tight storylines that don´t really allow the viewer to miss even one episode. As a result, events feel a bit more realistic (there seems to be less weekly reset) and the character developments give the impression of being far better planned at the inception of the series, as opposed to, say Star Trek TNG. |
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Talinfein
Acolyte
Germany
14 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 10:05:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Hmm. Define "consistent change" and why you think it might be labeled unrealistic? I'm also curious as to what sort of plot and character developments you think are unlikely to happen due to the nature of FR and its target audience.
I think I misused a word there (sorry, not a native speaker). What I meant to say is "constant" change, as in characters constantly experiencing heart-wrenching, life-changing, whatever just for the sake of an exciting plot.
As for the plots and character developments, Ed Greenwood himself has hinted at the way his originals drafts are often cut - not only because of space - but also content. There is a limit to violence, however realistic it might be in a violent, medieval fanatasy world, sexual content and so on that you can show in a FR novel. I really doubt that you could tell a story like Martin does in the FR and the books getting published. It was mentioned somewhere above that some people actually complained about the ending of City of Splendors (which I loved) because the heroes didn´t "win" and I can remember many posts of Ed explaining that the bad guys in the Realms seem to be completely incompetent because of the story guidelines set down by TSR.
In addition, I personally think that the realms novels (and please remember, I read and enjoy the majority of them) suffer because of their connection to D&D. As a DM I have never encountered something that restricts free roleplaying more than alignment. In a world where you can simply cast a spell, determine someone´s evil and then righteously kill them, black-and-white characterizations are very tempting. The stories in the novels have been going away from that, but they are a far cry from the grey characters of Martin, for example. On the other hand, maybe this moral compass is what makes Realms fiction stand out. If every new fantasy series would emulate Martin´s formula for characters and plot, that would be boring too. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 10:33:16
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It's perfectly possible, however, to have "mature" plot and characterization without extreme violence or sex. Besides which, due to peculiar American standards (and WotC is American), you can have lovingly described, graphic torture in a book and have it still suitable for teens; put in a scene of semi-graphic sex, and people will start screaming that it's "unsuitable for childreeeen."
quote:
Originally posted by Talinfein
I think I misused a word there (sorry, not a native speaker). What I meant to say is "constant" change, as in characters constantly experiencing heart-wrenching, life-changing, whatever just for the sake of an exciting plot.
I would prefer that far, far over static characters, though. There is a reason that long-running series tend to stagnate, and the Drizzt novels are a prime example. You could say, of course, that there comes a point where characters can't change anymore, but in the case of Salvatore's characters, I don't think half -- nay, one-fourth of -- the potential has remotely been realized. I will grant, though, that his fans have become comfortable with the characters and the formula, and after all Salvatore's writing for money, not charity. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 10:39:00
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I would honestly agree.
Though I do question how much might actually be the limits within the confines of the setting. Drizzt can't kill Obould, he can't destroy Menzoberrazan, and he can't marry Alustriel after all.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 10:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Though I do question how much might actually be the limits within the confines of the setting. Drizzt can't kill Obould, he can't destroy Menzoberrazan, and he can't marry Alustriel after all.
Well, I know you prefer "big things" to happen, but I don't, so in my opinion, there are many, many things that can happen. The Companions of the Hall could break apart due to genuine, honest-to-goodness disagreements that can't be mended no matter what. Wulfgar could move on from Catti-brie. One of the Companions could kick the bucket and never ever get a freaking resurrection. Drizzt could be totally isolated from the others. (For a whole novel or trilogy. Tossed into another plane or something.) Real tragedies rather than farce could, for a change, occur.
Hell, I thought the never-published Shores of Dusk sounded intriguing, with the premise that Drizzt loses his memory -- even if that particular device is a bit cliched, it'd be a vast improvement over the self-regurgitating bore that the novels have become. It'd have been more interesting still if he never regains his recollections. If you ask me, one of Salvatore's (many) problems is that he pulls punches and is never willing to be harsh enough on his primary characters. They're all author's darlings. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 11:16:12
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I prefer "things that matter" to cop a point. I think you should recognize Winterfox that in the above scenarios, the characters are likely to change as a result of the events.
1. Obould would make Drizzt the hero of the north and he'd suddenly find himself loved and beloved, forcing him to totally change his worldview.
2. I frankly wouldn't mind seeing how Drizzt and RA's Alustriel would handle a relationship.
3. Putting finally his past behind him, Drizzt might also have to cope with his guilt.
I love ensemble pieces honestly Winterfox so I have no inclination to break up the fellowship but I can also understand your frustration. Frankly, RA tried it with Wulgar and that was a titanic failure in my mind. Spine of the World was a greatly written book but it made me vehemently dislike the character and the direction he was in.
On a similiar note, Regis' plot with the Thieves Guild was resolved long ago. Aside from some guilt from his fellows, if he died then there wouldn't be any real changes amongst the Fellowship save a bit of guilt. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 11:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
If you ask me, one of Salvatore's (many) problems is that he pulls punches and is never willing to be harsh enough on his primary characters. They're all author's darlings.
In Salvatore's defense, he did kill -- and intend to leave dead -- Wulfgar. It was the fan reaction, and TSR/WotC's reaction to that, that caused him to have to bring Wulfgar back.
As tired as I am of Drizzt, I think that's part of the reason RAS doesn't do anything to his characters: WotC won't let him. I am of the opinion that if given the chance, RAS would drop those characters in a heartbeat and tell other tales. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 11:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I prefer "things that matter" to cop a point. I think you should recognize Winterfox that in the above scenarios, the characters are likely to change as a result of the events.
But smaller things can change them just as profoundly. By saying "I prefer 'things that matter,'" my dear Charles, you seem to imply that smaller things don't matter, and I find that view, at best, myopic. Are you saying that I described wouldn't change the characters? Please.
quote:
I love ensemble pieces honestly Winterfox so I have no inclination to break up the fellowship but I can also understand your frustration.
I don't. I've always found the various Tolkien imitations where an adventuring party goes forth, consisting of the set pieces (elf, dwarf, human, halfling) moronic to begin with. What's the appeal, honestly? Don't tell me it's to show racial differences, because when this happens, more often than not the elf isn't an elf, but a stereotype. Ditto for the dwarf and the halfling. (I have problems with Salvatore's dwarves, period, but that's another topic.)
quote:
On a similiar note, Regis' plot with the Thieves Guild was resolved long ago. Aside from some guilt from his fellows, if he died then there wouldn't be any real changes amongst the Fellowship save a bit of guilt.
And therefore? So kill off Bruenor. Kill off Catti. For a change, I'd like to see Salvatore kill someone who'll actually, y'know, cause turmoil, not bit characters whom nobody likes anyway. Killing off Delly, for instance, is a cheap cop-out.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In Salvatore's defense, he did kill -- and intend to leave dead -- Wulfgar. It was the fan reaction, and TSR/WotC's reaction to that, that caused him to have to bring Wulfgar back.
As tired as I am of Drizzt, I think that's part of the reason RAS doesn't do anything to his characters: WotC won't let him. I am of the opinion that if given the chance, RAS would drop those characters in a heartbeat and tell other tales.
Oh, I know, which is why I said he doesn't write for charity. Cash cows are cash cows, and if it keeps his pockets filled, more power to him. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 11:48:06
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Touche.
What's your problem with his dwarves?
(I'd argue with your above points but you're pretty much right in most respects)
I'm also always hesitant to kill characters but it kills all future stories with that character. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 03 Apr 2006 11:48:33 |
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Heroes in Novels
Topic Locked
