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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 03:31:04
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I know that positive energy affects undead in a nasty way, but does it have any negative effect on creatures from the Plane of Shadow? Speaking of shadows, do these undead beasties have any links to the Plane of Shadow? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 03:44:17
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I'd say it wouldn't have negative effects on the plane of shadow since the plane of shadow is also connected to the positive energy plane since the plane of shadow is a transit plane like the astral and ethereal.
I checked 2e lore on Shadows from the large Monstrous Manual and it just says that they are connected to the Negative Material Plane.... whatever that is. I take that to mean the Negative energy plane. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12213 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 16:17:54
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| its been established that shadows have links to both the negative material plane (as undead) and the plane of shadow. I know I've read it in several places, but I can't say where. Therefore, positive energy affects them as it does other undead. However, I can't say that positive energy negatively impacts other shadow plane inhabitants. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 17:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
its been established that shadows have links to both the negative material plane (as undead) and the plane of shadow. I know I've read it in several places, but I can't say where. Therefore, positive energy affects them as it does other undead. However, I can't say that positive energy negatively impacts other shadow plane inhabitants.
Established where? The 3.5e MM doesn't have any text saying that they have connections to the Shadow Plane and as I said above, neither did 2e's. What are your sources? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 19:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I know that positive energy affects undead in a nasty way, but does it have any negative effect on creatures from the Plane of Shadow?
No; on a related note, this is really muddled in 3e; some positive energy sources do not negatively affect undead, likely as a result of the fact that there's no consistent definition of positive and negative energy. The fact that positive energy is split into two kinds(healing, and healing+temporary hit points) doesn't help either.
quote:
Speaking of shadows, do these undead beasties have any links to the Plane of Shadow? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
-- George Krashos
No. The new Tome of Magic uses a new type of creature, the shadow elemental, as shadow incarnate. To help clear this up, I should probably work on some way to get shadow/dark template creatures or shadow elementals associated with the shadowdancer, instead of shadows themselves. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 19:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
No; on a related note, this is really muddled in 3e; some positive energy sources do not negatively affect undead, likely as a result of the fact that there's no consistent definition of positive and negative energy. The fact that positive energy is split into two kinds(healing, and healing+temporary hit points) doesn't help either.
Plus there are those positive energy undead in... Book of Exhalted Deeds, I believe. I forgot thier name. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 19:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Plus there are those positive energy undead in... Book of Exhalted Deeds, I believe. I forgot thier name.
Deathless. They also appear in the ECS, and I can't help but shake the feeling there's a single Undying x I'm forgetting somewhere. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 19:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Plus there are those positive energy undead in... Book of Exhalted Deeds, I believe. I forgot thier name.
Deathless. They also appear in the ECS, and I can't help but shake the feeling there's a single Undying x I'm forgetting somewhere.
Ah, I don't have any Eberron material, so I didn't know that.
Hmm. Not sure about the Undying thing..... Mummies sometimes were claimed to maybe be positive energizered undead, in 2e lore but that was only a theory. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 20:05:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Ah, I don't have any Eberron material, so I didn't know that.
Hmm. Not sure about the Undying thing..... Mummies sometimes were claimed to maybe be positive energizered undead, in 2e lore but that was only a theory.
No, no, I'm referring to the vast majority of Eberronian deathless, which are collectively referred to as the Undying Court. I'm thinking there's stats for one other member besides the ones in the ECS, but I'll be damned if I can remember where...anyway, back to George's request. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 20:44:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Ah, I don't have any Eberron material, so I didn't know that.
Hmm. Not sure about the Undying thing..... Mummies sometimes were claimed to maybe be positive energizered undead, in 2e lore but that was only a theory.
No, no, I'm referring to the vast majority of Eberronian deathless, which are collectively referred to as the Undying Court. I'm thinking there's stats for one other member besides the ones in the ECS, but I'll be damned if I can remember where...anyway, back to George's request.
Ah, I have no idea then..... as I said, if it's in a Eberron book, I don't have it. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 01:00:55
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Thanks all. Okay, on to shadowstuff then. I've looked through my core books but can't seem to find (if it exists) a broad, generic category of creatures related to 'shadow' or the 'Plane of Shadow'. Undead are undead, extraplanar are just that - anything special about living life in 'the shadows'? Where is the Shade template (ala Erevis Cale) found?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 01:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks all. Okay, on to shadowstuff then. I've looked through my core books but can't seem to find (if it exists) a broad, generic category of creatures related to 'shadow' or the 'Plane of Shadow'. Undead are undead, extraplanar are just that - anything special about living life in 'the shadows'? Where is the Shade template (ala Erevis Cale) found?
-- George Krashos
If it's the one I'm thinking of, it was printed in one of the black books from 2e.... the Monstrous Compendium Annuals. #4 to be exact as well as Greyhawk Adventures according to that sourcebook. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 01:10:28
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Shade template in the monster section of the 3.0 FRCS, page 314-5
3.5 web enhancement adds these notes.
"Shade: Outsider; +9/+12; 5 ft./5 ft.; LA +5. " |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 01:12:33
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Ah,
So they did update it for 3e/3.5e. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 01:14:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Ah,
So they did update it for 3e/3.5e. :)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a
at least parts of it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 03:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks all. Okay, on to shadowstuff then. I've looked through my core books but can't seem to find (if it exists) a broad, generic category of creatures related to 'shadow' or the 'Plane of Shadow'. Undead are undead, extraplanar are just that - anything special about living life in 'the shadows'? Where is the Shade template (ala Erevis Cale) found?
-- George Krashos
The closest thing to a pre-existing master list is the encounter list on page 187 of the Planar Handbook; it's a bit outdated now, and needs adjustment for Realms sources, the new Tome of Magic, and the MMIII, off the top of my head. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 04:18:41
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So is there a particular category relating to creatures from the Plane of Shadow or who have links with the Plane of Shadow. Basically, anything that is a game label that can be attached to 'shadowy stuff'?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 04:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
So is there a particular category relating to creatures from the Plane of Shadow or who have links with the Plane of Shadow. Basically, anything that is a game label that can be attached to 'shadowy stuff'?
-- George Krashos
No. *shrugs*
EDIT: Pre-existing rules cases exist where subcategories(as opposed to subtypes) of creatures have been defined after the creatures have been printed; see Underdark or Serpent Kingdoms for examples. You'll need to define the group, give it a name, and all of its members if you do so.
EDIT2: Libris Mortis and the 3e Draconomicon include interlocking examples of subcategories, too. |
Edited by - Arivia on 07 Apr 2006 04:26:58 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 06:39:02
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Thanks for all the feedback guys and gals. Looks like I may have to go down the path suggested by Arivia and create my own category, But maybe not - using 'positive energy' may do just fine.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 11:41:24
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There is a "Shadow Creature" template found in both Manual of the Planes and Lords of Madness. These creatures don't seem to have a special name, they are just referred to as shadow this or shadow that.
There is a grouping of shadow inhabitants called "Ephemera", also from the Manual of the Planes including the Dark Beast, the Umbral Banyan, and the Ecalypse. I think this was an attempt at creating an iconic type of shadow creature, much like elementals or demons or devils, etc. There is certainly room to add more types of ephemera. You might even use the label "ephemeral" to describe shadowy creatures in general.
I was also thinking "umbral". One of the ephemera is called an umbral banyan. In Libris Mortis they introduced the "Umbral Creature" template. Umbral creatures are a type of undead made out of shadowstuff that hates both life and light equally. Umbral might thus have connotations of both shadow combined with negative energy or undead.
The label associated with negative energy creatures is "entropic". There is an "Entropic Creature" template in the Manual of the Planes. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 12:44:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
There is a "Shadow Creature" template found in both Manual of the Planes and Lords of Madness. These creatures don't seem to have a special name, they are just referred to as shadow this or shadow that.
There is a grouping of shadow inhabitants called "Ephemera", also from the Manual of the Planes including the Dark Beast, the Umbral Banyan, and the Ecalypse. I think this was an attempt at creating an iconic type of shadow creature, much like elementals or demons or devils, etc. There is certainly room to add more types of ephemera. You might even use the label "ephemeral" to describe shadowy creatures in general.
I was also thinking "umbral". One of the ephemera is called an umbral banyan. In Libris Mortis they introduced the "Umbral Creature" template. Umbral creatures are a type of undead made out of shadowstuff that hates both life and light equally. Umbral might thus have connotations of both shadow combined with negative energy or undead.
The label associated with negative energy creatures is "entropic". There is an "Entropic Creature" template in the Manual of the Planes.
I touched on this a bit in Power of Faerun, page 60, as a new weapon property. (Effectively "shadowscourge" is a bane weapon vs. creatures with ties to the plane of shadow.) I believe the suggestion to make an "arachnoid"-style group or a new subtype makes a lot of sense.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 12:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks all. Okay, on to shadowstuff then. I've looked through my core books but can't seem to find (if it exists) a broad, generic category of creatures related to 'shadow' or the 'Plane of Shadow'. Undead are undead, extraplanar are just that - anything special about living life in 'the shadows'? Where is the Shade template (ala Erevis Cale) found?
-- George Krashos
Chuckle. George missed a reference out of the FRCS! Tee hee.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Positive Energy
