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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 16:52:39
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Well, Rin, I like books without a lot of excess statblockiness. I had to get over the 4 page CR 40 dragon. (That was a waste of paper, but its the shortest waste of paper in the books so far.)
But when you look at the stuff on becoming a leader, or types of leaders, it's useful not just for the Realms, but in any campaign, and unlike many of the other sourcebooks where there are adventures or statblocks that you could do that with, this provided general guidelines on what the characters needed to do. It was useful anywhere. It let the DM do all the work, and it provided a set of useful tools that the DM could use to get there, or that a player could use to try to get there.
I run an extremely "Interactive" world. There are about 15 groups of player characters and my world has run for 20 years. There are a total of seven or eight people with the Leadership feat since we converted to 3.5, and most of them are different types of leaders.
It's a constant enterprise with that many different PCs, and I am certain that if Ed had as many PC's as I did, he'd be twitching in his boots just like I do when it comes time to run a session for one of the higher level groups. You just never know when you'll run into another high level PC, and I'll have to dig out my cellphone and say "Hey, (Name of Player), YOU have been encountered. What do you want?"
So, that's my story. I don't run campaigns and put them on the shelf. I run campaigns and make the PC's a part of the world. It's been going on for 20 years now, this October. And I still have most of the same players I had in college.
(Come back, Norman Aragones, we miss you, whereever you are.)
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 17:59:20
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Tough one to answer.
Lost Empires of Faerun provides enough material to fuel a thousand campaigns.
Power of Faerun is outstanding for the way it makes you stop and think of how to run D&D in a manner that cannot be duplicated by a computer game.
Races of Faerun is so helpful for creating characters with background.
Player's Guide to Faerun is boring by comparison but necessary.
Unapproachable East is probably my favourite regional book both because it's rather good and the area is largely free from novels!
I really want to vote for Mysteries of the Moonsea just to be different... but, actually, I don't want to be -that- different. ;)
My shorter answer is that I can't really vote!
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 22:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Races of Faerun put new meaning to the race we ourselves like to call ourselves Human, making each human sub-race more realms flavorful.
Each human sub-race?
The human sections were my least favorite part of RoF. I don't really want to get into why...I don't feel like starting a debate.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 05:23:19
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Well, Rin, speaking as "The Jewish Guy," I think I have a pretty good idea of why that might be your least favorite part, and quite frankly, it was mine, too.
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 02:03:19
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Magic of Faerun is defintely a must buy and own! I enjoyed it even more with Volo's Guide to all things magical (or whatever the title is). It has enriched the magic use in my camapigns.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Arnwyn
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 15:03:30
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Other: Faiths & Avatars (2e)
If I had to choose a 3e product, it would likely be either Races of Faerun, Shining South, Unapproachable East, or Serpent Kingdoms [just the geography chapter]. Namely: new information! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 18:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Races of Faerun put new meaning to the race we ourselves like to call ourselves Human, making each human sub-race more realms flavorful.
Each human sub-race?
The human sections were my least favorite part of RoF. I don't really want to get into why...I don't feel like starting a debate.
Well... It is a proven fact that, perhaps thru limited genetic selection, certain regional/ethnic groups do have minor differences. For example, I've heard that many Japanese people lack an enzyme that readily breaks down alcohol. And the fact that certain skintones, hair colors, and eye colors are dominant in some areas backs up the idea of regional variations within a race.
So, without trying to negative in any way, I can see the idea of sub-races, and I don't have a problem with it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 02:53:36
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What troubled me more was the way people of the different regional backgrounds were generalized (not just in terms of culture, but personality). I know it's fantasy, but still...
Like I said, though I really don't want to start an argument about it. I have no axe to grind, I'm just mentioning that that particular section of the book rubbed me the wrong way (and apparently I'm not the only one. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Jun 2006 03:03:07 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 03:25:24
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| I kind of like a balance between stereotyping and being so totally free/liberal about things that it is impossible to define anything about a given group. And culture IS a big part of personality - on a large scale, at least. Culture and personality are often times analogous. Being logical, for example, is often associated with both German culture and one's personality. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 27 Jun 2006 03:26:29 |
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Darrin Drader
Forgotten Realms Designer
16 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 22:06:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, I have to say Serpent kingdoms, as most of the others to a great degree covers the same areas as 1ed and 2ed products. I don't use 3ed rules so all rules are useless to me personally, so Serpent kingdoms is the only 3ed book that makes it to my top 20 FR books of all time.
It always surprises me when people list Serpent Kingdoms as their favorite FR book. Don't get me wrong, I worked on it and I think it's a fine book, but even I consider the core books to be of more general utility. What is it about this book that people find so endearing?
* Yeah, this is a lot like some shameless fishing for compliments, but I am curious.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 22:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I kind of like a balance between stereotyping and being so totally free/liberal about things that it is impossible to define anything about a given group. And culture IS a big part of personality - on a large scale, at least. Culture and personality are often times analogous. Being logical, for example, is often associated with both German culture and one's personality.
But not all the Faerunian human "races" are of the same culture to begin with. So even if what you are saying is true, it doesn't totally destroy my point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Jun 2006 22:54:42 |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 01:14:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
It always surprises me when people list Serpent Kingdoms as their favorite FR book. Don't get me wrong, I worked on it and I think it's a fine book, but even I consider the core books to be of more general utility. What is it about this book that people find so endearing?
* Yeah, this is a lot like some shameless fishing for compliments, but I am curious.
It gave us Sarrukh and a look at the Realms' pre-history, gave us details on the Nether Scrolls and provided lore and information on hitherto undetailed areas such as the Tashalar, Samarach, Thindol etc. It also tied in a few dangling threads such as the Terraseer, the status of the serpent deities and current unfolding plots in the Realms. All in all, a very solid book for realmslore and DMs, maybe not so good for pure players unless they are fans of the setting and completists.
The Swordsage
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 02:06:57
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quote:
But not all the Faerunian human "races" are of the same culture to begin with. So even if what you are saying is true, it doesn't totally destroy my point.
You're right, it doesn't. :) Was just adding my own tought of knowledge/opinion to the situation, s'all. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 04:30:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
It always surprises me when people list Serpent Kingdoms as their favorite FR book. Don't get me wrong, I worked on it and I think it's a fine book, but even I consider the core books to be of more general utility. What is it about this book that people find so endearing?
Well, first of all I have a rather good collection of 1ed and 2ed books, and I don't use 3ed rules, so for me both the rules lightness and the fact that 80% of the information in this book is new plays an important part. The book is also an easier read for me with long sections of text, I don't like reading short paragraphs, so this is an important point to me personally. I am not looking for general utility, but for books that give me a "feel" of the material, more than gaming information.
I am a conservative Realms DM and prefer the older style of the realm; and this is the book that to me came closest to these and at the same time provided new information. I can see the appeal in many of the other books for those who use 3ed or that don't have the older material, but to me personally this book was perfect.
I could probably heave compliments at the book until people reading swore to never go near the book, so I will quit before it becomes sickening. And Darrin; Thanks, You helped one happy gamer here.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 04:45:53
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
But not all the Faerunian human "races" are of the same culture to begin with. So even if what you are saying is true, it doesn't totally destroy my point.
You're right, it doesn't. :) Was just adding my own tought of knowledge/opinion to the situation, s'all.
Understood. I still liked most of the book, anyway. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 06:55:43
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That's kind of funny, because I consider Serpent Kingdoms the worst one of all. It has great DM utility, but, the lack of a map overlay vs. the human kingdoms, the lack of information on secret rulers vs. open rulers in these areas...REALLY killed it organziationally. I still have to double and triple check where everything is. "Hang on, let me check Serpent Kingdoms. I have no bloody idea where you are..." While I don't normally deal with crunch, and I'm certain some of the PRCs were necessary, I can't imagine why the serpent hunter prc only gets smite serpent once. Was it created by Serpentfolk who had the plan of "heh...heh...heh...if we figure out a way to make people think they're hunting us, they'll be easier to kill...." And why have a smite ability at all if the BAB for the class is poor, unless you can use the smite with spellcasting attacks. Even so, I doubt the necessity of a class entitled "Naga Overlord." Unless you're running a campaign full of naga pcs, it doesn't make much sense to me.
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 07:56:50
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Have you seen the maps for SK that were released on the WotC website?
The Swordsage
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 09:59:16
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Well, as I play 2ed or other systems the rules in Serpent kingdoms don't matter to me at all. As I have the old Forgotten Realms Atlas, and disagree with the shrinking of the map for this edition the lack of maps did not bother me either.
Many of the 3ed books become over organized for me, and even if that makes them easier to look up in, that hurts some of the reading joy for me personally. when it comes to rulers and borders I don't mind creating these myself.
It is a matter of taste as I said but to me personally this is definitely the high point of the newer Realmsbooks. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 22:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
It always surprises me when people list Serpent Kingdoms as their favorite FR book. Don't get me wrong, I worked on it and I think it's a fine book, but even I consider the core books to be of more general utility. What is it about this book that people find so endearing?
* Yeah, this is a lot like some shameless fishing for compliments, but I am curious.
It gave us Sarrukh and a look at the Realms' pre-history, gave us details on the Nether Scrolls and provided lore and information on hitherto undetailed areas such as the Tashalar, Samarach, Thindol etc. It also tied in a few dangling threads such as the Terraseer, the status of the serpent deities and current unfolding plots in the Realms. All in all, a very solid book for realmslore and DMs, maybe not so good for pure players unless they are fans of the setting and completists.
The Swordsage
And it also detailed fantastically a number of ways to involve Yuan-ti in your campaigns... plus, it detailed their origins, variations, some vocabulary, habits of worship, etc. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 11:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
It always surprises me when people list Serpent Kingdoms as their favorite FR book. Don't get me wrong, I worked on it and I think it's a fine book, but even I consider the core books to be of more general utility. What is it about this book that people find so endearing?
* Yeah, this is a lot like some shameless fishing for compliments, but I am curious.
It gave us Sarrukh and a look at the Realms' pre-history, gave us details on the Nether Scrolls and provided lore and information on hitherto undetailed areas such as the Tashalar, Samarach, Thindol etc. It also tied in a few dangling threads such as the Terraseer, the status of the serpent deities and current unfolding plots in the Realms. All in all, a very solid book for realmslore and DMs, maybe not so good for pure players unless they are fans of the setting and completists.
The Swordsage
Technically, we had sarrukh in the original Lords of Darkness.
It should be noted however that Hsssthak of Isstossef wasn't originally described as a sarrukh. It wasn't until the release of Serpent Kingdoms, which later clarified that. He's mentioned in the "Mummies" adventure on pg. 34 and is more fully described on pages 80 and 81. His identifcation as a sarrukh occurs on pg. 96 of Serpent Kingdoms.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 22:35:22
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Well, Sage, first I'm going to quote you, and then...
Sage: It gave us Sarrukh and a look at the Realms' pre-history, gave us details on the Nether Scrolls and provided lore and information on hitherto undetailed areas such as the Tashalar, Samarach, Thindol etc. It also tied in a few dangling threads such as the Terraseer, the status of the serpent deities and current unfolding plots in the Realms. All in all, a very solid book for realmslore and DMs, maybe not so good for pure players unless they are fans of the setting and completists.
It gave us Sarrukh. Yes, it did. Why in the name of god do you need information on the race that once ruled the world? For 99 percent of games, the PC's will never see a Sarrukh, let alone fight one. If you need to design an uber-lizard man who ruled the world in days of old, do so. That was all my group ever needed to know. "In the old days, the mighty serpent-lizard men ruled the world. If you see one, RUN!"
The undetailed areas would have been much more useful if the maps were in the book instead of on the website. I didn't even know the maps were there, and they're not "Overlayable" the way they need to be, where you have how the borders of the Serpent Kingdoms interact with, both secretly and openly, the civilized Realms as we know it. One of the features of this book should have been a transparent Serpent Kingdoms overlay map for the map in the FRCS. That wasn't there. Every time I access this book, it becomes "Hold on, let me check. You could encounter a CR33 Naga Overlord by accident!"
Status of the serpent deities? This is a lot of information, but I'm not sure how useful it is for most dungeon masters. In terms of the lore in the book, I would have preferred a lot more information on how the Yuan Ti operate now, why Hill's Edge and the Western Heartlands haven't been completely crushed by the Kingdom of Najara, etc.
I AM a fan of the Realms and a completist. But this information is still information that the DM should be making up themselves. If the events are so far in the past that no one will ever remember what happened, and even the Olin Gisr say "That's funny, my ancestors weren't old enough to remember or record that," you are taking away the DM's ability to construct good plots for his or her players by nailing down in concrete "The Sinister Secrets of the Dark Past of the Realms." Some things SHOULDN'T be statblocked except by the DM. Because statblocks take away this thing called fear. And when your PC's are afraid, then something more real is at stake in the roleplaying. "He's a lizard man who used to rule the world..." fills my players with dread. They don't WANT to know what the statblock looks like.
Plus, Sarrukh are broken. I carry a bunch of bean bags in my pocket. Each one is an eight armed 20th level Lizardfolk Monk with multiattack and multidexterity. Don't fight me! My MINIONS are CR22.
There seems to be a freelancer "Pissing Contest" going on to see who can design the mightiest creature, or build the biggest CR threat, or break the game with the most interesting statblock using the elite array. And quite frankly, I'm getting tired of it.
When I see four pages devoted to a CR 33 statblock, and then that statblock has errors in the errata, I think "Why didn't they put four pages of real information in there instead of this statblock which was incorrect?"
And that's why I don't like Serpent Kingdoms. Even the lore has too little utility. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 00:00:29
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Well, some people like lore just for lore's sake. I know I liked Serpent Kingdoms a lot. And I don't even play the game really, so.. ;)
Actually, that's probably why I'm a fan of ALL new lore. I am not a DM or player in the FR setting, so I just like to read it all. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 11 Jul 2006 00:01:39 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 00:48:37
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I thought that the lore-weaving that Eric Boyd managed for this book was second-to-none.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 00:52:34
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| Not to mention, you can take that "it should be left to the DM" to the extreem and say that all we really "need" to have published is the FRCS, and the rest should be "up to the DM." I rather liked the information in Serpent Kingdoms, and the main issue I had with the product was simply the lack of maps. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 01:30:16
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Well, the Sarroukh stats consists of a couple of pages, not a very large part of the books. As for the idea of the Sarroukh and the lore surrounding them, this can be put to good use even if you rule that the Sarroukh have been extinct for millenia.
As for the utility of the lore; as with everything else this depends on areas of interest. If you are using the area around the central Sword coast or Chult peninsula the book is stacked with information, both historical and recent. Even if the yuan-ti theme does not appeal to one, the books handling of the reptile races role in Faerun and placement in the larger system can be useful in any campaign. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 06:47:37
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| Jorkens, you can't run the world and not use what they publish. The idea behind these things is that they're meant to be used, not picked from and selectively edited. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 06:56:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Msatran
Jorkens, you can't run the world and not use what they publish. The idea behind these things is that they're meant to be used, not picked from and selectively edited.
I am not sure if you are ironic or not here, so I will answer carefully.
Now, the only thing in my post that maybe would be against cannon is that the Sarroukh were extinct. Well, in the mind of almost every one in Faerun they are. As they have played a minimal part in the open schemes of things for thousands of years, what are really the chances of a Pc meeting them except at the wish of the DM? In most campaigns one can handle the Sarroukh as extinct mysteries of the past without going against cannon. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 07:02:11
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Actually, that's the problem. If you're assuming that they're extinct, everything in Serpent Kingdoms doesn't function. Because behind the scenes, the Sarrukh are secretly controlling all of these people, because that's what their abilities say they do.
Eliminating the Sarrukh doesn't change things. It just breaks the book. The problem is that you can't eliminate much of the themes in Serpent Kingdoms without eliminating the book altogether. And if you do that, then there's no point at all.
We buy the books for the lore inside, but the anticipation of the game designers is that we are going to USE what is inside the book, rather than say "My, how fascinating." |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 07:07:37
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As I said, the book also shows the Sarroukh as a hidden menace; so let them stay hidden and let people believe that they are extinct. The Sarroukhs plans may not come into the light for hundreds of years yet, well out of the campaign time line.
As for the book being useless if you call the Sarroukh extinct, I disagree with this wholly and. completely
I think we will just have to agree to disagree, as we view the book and the role of game products in very different ways and therefore this is not a question of right or wrong. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 08:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Not to mention, you can take that "it should be left to the DM" to the extreem and say that all we really "need" to have published is the FRCS, and the rest should be "up to the DM." I rather liked the information in Serpent Kingdoms, and the main issue I had with the product was simply the lack of maps.
Hey! I fixed that!!! A little late and not actually in the books, but I did finally get y'all the maps I intended for it all along. :-)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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most useful forgotten realms sourcebook
