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Nokom
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 19:43:19
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What is your view on this?Do you follow Ed Greenwood in if its not on paper its not canon?I myself think that anything that is made(video games anything)and sold is canon.What are your views?
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 19:49:48
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I tend to stick with sourcebooks, novels, and magazine arcticles.
Of course, all of the wonderful realmslore provided here by the sages, goes a long way in swaying my opinion of how "my" realms functions. As always though, I use what fits best for me, as I am sure many other scribes and sages here also do  . |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 20:06:27
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This is a difficult question; in my games as good as everything of Greenwood is canon, most of Steven Schends present (as opposed to historic)and Eric Boyds material to. the rest I will modify to get the feel and the world I want. With three editions and so many individual writers there are bound to be contradictions, in spirit if not words. generally I try to keep to the feel of the two old campaign guides and then build out with later source books and some things from novels.
I usually start games around 1340, to see the full effects of changes made by novels and game products and how I want to handle them. I notice that with time my dependence on cannon lessens more and more, especially with the latest edition.
If we talk official cannon I count everything but video games and a handful of novels. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 15 Jul 2006 20:18:45 |
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Nokom
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 20:22:10
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| why dont you cound Video games as canon? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 20:26:24
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| Because some are somewhat contradicting to Realmslore and many have multiple possibilities for endings. If parts of video games are introduced into source books they count as canon. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 21:08:46
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Canon is a stupid word that implies a near religious obsession with what is official and what isn't.
That being said, I consider everything of Ed Greenwood's to be official. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 22:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Canon is a stupid word that implies a near religious obsession with what is official and what isn't.
That being said, I consider everything of Ed Greenwood's to be official.
Agreed, Ed's material is always official to me and I usually incorporate whatever information he gives, or try to, into my campaigns. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 00:32:18
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The video games are no more canon then you're own homebrewed campaign in my view. Why? Well, with timed luck you can kill Elminster in Baldur's Gate, it's even easier to kill Drizzt in Baldur's Gate... hey wait a sec... what is Drizzt doing that far south?!?!
There have been novel tie ins to the video games, but again, how much of those novels have been accepted into other products? Some of the third edition supplements have little tie ins, but nothing notable. Same can be said about the comics, ultimately it's up to your DM, not you, what can and can't be used.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 16 Jul 2006 00:33:30 |
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Nokom
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 01:02:02
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| Yes.I know thats so dumb how you can kill Elminster abd Drizzt.But to me I still count the main story line canon(to myself.Like You said:Its up to your dm not you. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 01:30:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Nokom
why dont you cound Video games as canon?
In the case of Baldur's Gate, the novels are canon. WotC lists them as taking place in 1368 DR and 1369 DR. As well, the characters from the novels were stat’d up in DRAGON #262 for 2e and there is the Bhaalspawn template for 3e in DRAGON #288. Ed wrote a sourcebook that complements the novels -- Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. In addition, Jim Butler answered this question in 2000 on the FR Mailing List. There's also some tidbits Lost Empires of Faerun.
And finally, the author of the last novel chimed in on the topic -
"<Ulairi> <Howdy> Are the BG games considered canon Forgotten Realms history by WotC?
<Drew2_Bio> Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."
Typically, if Ed had provided the game developers with any lore for the games themselves, that TSR/WotC did then overwrite with their own material, falls into canon.
Basically, the novels are considered canon. You'll see that some of the characters that have featured in those games in that past, have been written-up in DRAGON, some even provide some lore on the games themselves. This also is canon. The video games themselves almost always fall into the non-canon category.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nokom
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 01:36:01
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| Yes.Well said.But I also go back to what has been said:its really up to your dm. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 01:43:27
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| Indeed, but the designers and authors have to have a standard by which to go by when they produce material. Anyone can stray however far they wish to from this baseline, but the baseline exists so the authors and designers know what to work with, and video games do not fall under the umbrella of things that the designers are required to take into account when they work on their projects. |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 02:58:44
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| I consider canon whatever I want to be canon. If I wanted the events of the Neverwinter Nights computer game to be canon they would be. If I said that Evermeet was destroyed by a giant meteor it would be canon. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 03:35:02
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| There's the official canon and then there's my homebrew FR canon. Are they the same? Hells no. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 03:45:53
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
The video games are no more canon then you're own homebrewed campaign in my view. Why? Well, with timed luck you can kill Elminster in Baldur's Gate, it's even easier to kill Drizzt in Baldur's Gate... hey wait a sec... what is Drizzt doing that far south?!?!
Actually, Drizzt has gone that far south to visit Cadderly. But I'd agree that the Drizzt cameos in the BG series are rather bizzare. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 13:51:06
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I try to follow cannon as close as I can, and try to adapt my campaigns around cannon...
I know the game designers try to use cannon in new products and I noticed if you don't try to adapt cannon in your own campaign the further ahead in the timeline you go the more your home-brew deviates with what is going on in the Realms and the more adaptation work you have to do before your home-brew becomes nothing like playing in the Forgotten Realms
As I own 99% all the older 1st and 2nd ed. Forgotten Realms products I like to have campaigns in the FOR past, so I know the next 20-30 years of game cannon and can have my PCs interact with the "big NPCs" and still know what will happen the next day |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 16:51:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I know the game designers try to use cannon in new products and I noticed if you don't try to adapt cannon in your own campaign the further ahead in the timeline you go the more your home-brew deviates with what is going on in the Realms and the more adaptation work you have to do before your home-brew becomes nothing like playing in the Forgotten Realms
I have to disagree with this. You can deviate away from canon and still run a FR game. I've done it ever since 2e and no one has ever told me that they felt like they weren't playing in FR still. Actually, for those that do know more about FR, they've said that it feels more like FR then current canon. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Jul 2006 17:15:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36987 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 17:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I try to follow cannon as close as I can, and try to adapt my campaigns around cannon...
I know the game designers try to use cannon in new products and I noticed if you don't try to adapt cannon in your own campaign the further ahead in the timeline you go the more your home-brew deviates with what is going on in the Realms and the more adaptation work you have to do before your home-brew becomes nothing like playing in the Forgotten Realms
Well... While I prefer to stick with current canon (with minor exceptions), I do feel obligated to point out that the Realms was, originally, a home-brew setting, and that Ed himself doesn't do the current canon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 18:24:43
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This is kind of a loaded question; canon isn't decided by players or DMs, but rather by WotC.
As Kuje pointed out, 'normal' canon is WotC - what we like to homebrew really can't be defined as real canon.
Not talking about a subjective view here - but rather definitions. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 17 Jul 2006 18:25:05 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I have to disagree with this. You can deviate away from canon and still run a FR game.
reading over my post, I think that “nothing like playing in the Forgotten Realms” is misleading...I meant more around the fact that there are some keystone “things” that make the Realms the Realms, and that if you make changes in key points of canon for your campaign the ripple effect in all cannon can be tremendous. Like the “going back in time and preventing World War I” time travel discussion. Make those changes and your game is not as much as “the Forgotten Realms” but and alternative dimension forgotten Realms.
If you decide “there is no Eliminister” or “Netheril never Fell” or “Myth Drannor won the Weeping War” then imagine all the alterations as a DM you have to do in your Realms campaign if you follow through with the repercussions. I think the best example doesn’t use Toril but Krynn: the “The Cataclysm Didn’t Happen” campaign...without the Cataclysm would Dragonlance really be Dragonlance (as the designers planned it)? Or would it be a home-brew that uses Dragonlance resources.
In a campaign years ago (which I’m replaying with a new set of players) in 1360 my player’s party will lead an army to drive out the Zhentarim from Llorkh and the Upper Delimbiyr Vale and then cross (the party, not the army) the Anauroch and smash the Black Road (by destroying the artificial Zhent oasis’s and befriending/teaching some Bendine Tribes how to defeat any returning Zhent forces). I felt then I had to figure out how the Zhents would react and how would the future/history change without the Zhents having the Black Road.
And as new canon came in I had to modify how my adventure will proceed (the Cult of the Dragon controlling the Suzarian Dracolich, what to do about Darkhold (it would become much more important to the Zhents for their western interests) and more-so now I have the whole Return of the Shades storyline to incorporate (the Shades not having the Zhents to deal with for example)
I know (and want) every DM to make up their home brew but if you are going to radically change the campaign world then where is the line of playing in the Forgotten Realms or playing in your own unique world that draws heavily on forgotten Realms ideas and resources?
But then again, it just may be all semantics  
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I've done it ever since 2e and no one has ever told me that they felt like they weren't playing in FR still. Actually, for those that do know more about FR, they've said that it feels more like FR then current canon.
I agree with that too...I have found the “Realms” aren’t really the Realms anymore since the onset of D&D 3.0...I still greatly dislike the Thayan “Wall marts” and would have ignored that cannon except that the Enclaves make awesome targets for my players to assault and loot. 
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:43:18
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I know (and want) every DM to make up their home brew but if you are going to radically change the campaign world then where is the line of playing in the Forgotten Realms or playing in your own unique world that draws heavily on forgotten Realms ideas and resources?
The line is that there are times that official canon has to be ignored. If, and I have, someone ignores most of the last 6 years worth of RSE's who is to say that I'm, or that person, isn't DMing in the Forgotten Realms. That's a bit of a stretch.
You can still DM for the FR and change or ignore canon. Hells, TSR/WOTC continues to radically change the world, which is why there's official canon and then homebrew canon but you are still running a FR campaign if you ignore official canon, or even if you, as a DM, decide to kill Elminster, or go back to Netheril and change time, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Jul 2006 19:47:29 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:47:56
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| I consider the visions that hold truest to Ed's original ideas to be the "real FR." It may not be the "canon" one, but the "canon" FR isn't very equatable to Ed's in many ways. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 20:52:33
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To me it became the question of leaving the realms with the 3ed or leaving cannon as to many things started to anoy me enough to take the pleasure from the world from me. It is a lot more work sometimes to work out of canon, but when playing in a world one must enyoy the world used. To me the shakeups are starting to move the realms to far from the world I fell in love with. I have not changed anything from the 1ed set, but most of the major events since have not been used in my later campaigns.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 21:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
To me it became the question of leaving the realms with the 3ed or leaving cannon as to many things started to anoy me enough to take the pleasure from the world from me. It is a lot more work sometimes to work out of canon, but when playing in a world one must enyoy the world used. To me the shakeups are starting to move the realms to far from the world I fell in love with. I have not changed anything from the 1ed set, but most of the major events since have not been used in my later campaigns.
Exactly part of my point but I didn't want to say it like that. :) Plus, I've been DMing in FR for ten years now or longer and my in game history is radically different then official canon and the more TSR/WOTC keeps changing the setting, the more I have to ignore. However, this doesn't mean that I'm not running FR campaigns, because I still am. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 21:10:26
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Just to make myself a little clearer. I am not saying that everything that has been done since '89 is bad, it is more a matter of what appeals to me. I don't like post 1980 rock music either, but that is my subjective taste, not an objective sign of quality.
To take an example I quite enjoyed Elaines books from the Shining south, but I still prefer the area as I imagined it from the old Shining South supplement. In many ways the new version may be better, but in my mind the old version is still more fitting. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 01:16:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I try to follow cannon as close as I can, and try to adapt my campaigns around cannon...
I know the game designers try to use cannon in new products and I noticed if you don't try to adapt cannon in your own campaign the further ahead in the timeline you go the more your home-brew deviates with what is going on in the Realms and the more adaptation work you have to do before your home-brew becomes nothing like playing in the Forgotten Realms
Well... While I prefer to stick with current canon (with minor exceptions), I do feel obligated to point out that the Realms was, originally, a home-brew setting, and that Ed himself doesn't do the current canon.
My campaigns, for the most part, stick to what I consider to be canon for my FR, and not necessarily that which conforms with established WotC Realmslore. A lot of what Ed has said occurs from his own home Realms campaign has been pretty much reflected in my own choices. Though, not everything Ed has changed of course, but bits here and there.
I think that, overall, my FR campaigns adhere more closely to specific canon elements established in 1e/2e FR than they do the more recent elements that have taken place since 2001.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 01:23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I know (and want) every DM to make up their home brew but if you are going to radically change the campaign world then where is the line of playing in the Forgotten Realms or playing in your own unique world that draws heavily on forgotten Realms ideas and resources?
The line is that there are times that official canon has to be ignored. If, and I have, someone ignores most of the last 6 years worth of RSE's who is to say that I'm, or that person, isn't DMing in the Forgotten Realms. That's a bit of a stretch.
Exactly.
I've made a lot of changes to my FR since 1990, so the history of my own FR has parts that do not relate in any way, shape or form, with "official" canon. I mean, consider this... I learn about something new for the Dalelands, specifically Featherdale, in an upcoming Dalelands sourcebook for 3e next year. And, it directly contradicts what I've set up for my Featherdale in 1997, I'm going to be hard-pressed to take official Realmslore as fact when I've got nine years of my own established Realmslore for Featherdale to ignore. That's not going to happen.
I'm still DMing in the Realms, though not the Realms as interpreted (and that's an important word when you are talking about campaign settings with a nearly 20+ years of "published" history), always, by TSR/WotC.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:12:32
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| *nods* Like how I'm leaning towards just pretending the whole Last Mythal trilogy events didn't happen, since they don't really fit with my personal idea of the Realms (the Realms I fell in love with, as someone put it earlier). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Canon
