| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
danifae
Acolyte
Canada
18 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 03:22:56
|
I've been pondering over these following questions for a few days now, while reading the 3rd book of 'Return of the Archwizards' (by Troy Denning).
What makes a wizard/mage into an arch- mage/wizard?
Obviously an archwizard is much stronger and such, but what defines one from the other? When can a wizard rightly call himself an Archwizard?
Would anyone know this, or perhaps have some thoughts?
Another question I'd like clarified is, what is the real difference between Mages and Wizards? Sometimes in the Forgotten Realms a wizard is called a mage, or vice versa, but is there an actual difference between the two?
Would like to hear some other thoughts on this 
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 03:31:01
|
Mages are general Wizards.
In old lore, Archwizards were Netherese Arcanists who had their own Enclaves. But this term really doesn't apply any more. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
 |
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 04:29:50
|
| Nowadays I usually see "mage" used as a general term for either wizards or sorcerers. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 04:36:49
|
Way back, mage, wizard, and sorcerer used to be pretty interchangable. "Wizard" was the overall class, to which generalists, specialists, wild mages, elemental mages, and everything else fit under. "Mage" was a generalist wizard. Since most wizards were generalists, it could also refer to any wizard (as in, "You! Mage! Deal with that!"). "Sorcerer" was another way of referring to a wizard (user of arcane spells), but it wasn't used all that often.
In 3e, "sorcerer" is a new class. Still uses arcane magic, but is no longer the same as "wizard." This is, of course, assuming that the person speaking knows enough to know better. For most people, the three are probably still used interchangably.
"Archwizard" was, as GothicDan said, a Netherese arcanist (wizard) of at least 21st level who has their own enclave. It wasn't used anywhere else, and hasn't been used since Netheril fell (Shade's returning not withstanding). 3e seems to call all powerful arcanists "archwizards".
"Archmage" is a general term used to refer to a powerful wizard (and, these days, sorcerer as well). Despite the creation of the archmage prestige class, "archmage" remains a rather vague term. Just because someone doesn't have PrC levels doesn't mean they wouldn't be called an archmage. Exactly where the cutoff point is for being called such is mutable. Level 20? Definately. Level 15? Probably. Level 10? Probably not (unless the mage is somewhere out in the boonies without any other wizards to speak of, and even so, he ought to know better). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 04:51:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by danifae
I've been pondering over these following questions for a few days now, while reading the 3rd book of 'Return of the Archwizards' (by Troy Denning).
What makes a wizard/mage into an arch- mage/wizard?
Obviously an archwizard is much stronger and such, but what defines one from the other? When can a wizard rightly call himself an Archwizard?
Would anyone know this, or perhaps have some thoughts?
Another question I'd like clarified is, what is the real difference between Mages and Wizards? Sometimes in the Forgotten Realms a wizard is called a mage, or vice versa, but is there an actual difference between the two?
Would like to hear some other thoughts on this
It is my firm opinion that 'mage' and 'wizard' are just two different terms for a 'magic-user' - a person or being that wields magic, and has "spellcasting levels" (as a wizard in 3.x edition). I don't see any difference (in power) between an "archmage" or "archwizard". I think these terms have appeared in gaming products according to the personal preference of each designer.
A commoner might think of ANY person whom he/she sees wielding "strange powers" (including psionics, and sorcerer or bard spells) as a mage/wizard.
It is true that 'wizard' has a more solemn and pompous sound to it, so perhaps it is what established magic-users call themselves. Multiclassing characters, such as a wizard/rogue or sorcerer/rogue, might not think of themselves as 'wizards' or 'mages', but rather define themselves as persons who have learned some "handy" or beneficial spells/magic to help them in the pursuit of their goals. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:08:37
|
| Does the 3E PHB call generalist Wizards Mages, still? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:12:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Does the 3E PHB call generalist Wizards Mages, still?
Not as I recall...it's just a general term used in novels and such.
I would assume bards aren't referred to as "mages", although I'd agree that less-informed people might not be able to tell the difference between a bard and one who is truly dedicated to arcane spellcasting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 17 Jul 2006 05:12:57 |
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:18:10
|
| That makes me a sad panda. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:35:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
That makes me a sad panda.
Oops, sorry.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:50:48
|
| I disagree about the archwizard term. I've never seen it used in either Realms fiction or sourcebooks to refer to anyone except a (powerful) wizard of Netheril. Archmage gets applied all over the place, but is hardly uniform in its usage, and does not corespond to a person having archmage prestige class levels (it well predates the PrC). As an example, the mage from WotSQ (blanking on the name) had a few archmage levels in a WotC write-up I saw, but he's not called an archmage (that I recall, he's called a master, and other terms, but not archmage). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 13:41:11
|
I agree with everything everyone said, but the original use of "archwizard" comes from AD&D 1st Edition, when the title for a level 18 wizard is "archmage" which was also the level you first were able to cast 9th level spells (the greatest spells)
Lv 18 was a "milestone title level" like Lv 9 was and only a wizard Lv 18 and up could call themselves an archmage
in AD&D second edition the titling of every character class level ended but the tradition of Lv 18 = Archmage continued
|
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12209 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 21:18:49
|
GENERALLY, they are used interchangeably... but for a little while there in 3E they were using the terms kind of like this:
mage - non-specialist wizard
wizard - specialist wizard
sorceror - the sorceror class
archmage - if you can claim the title and noone smacks you down for your bravado...... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 21:54:52
|
| They refer to all specialists as Wizards now? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 00:12:19
|
I don't think wizard means just specialists, at least not in 3.5. I don't have many 3.0 books, so I can't speak for that edition.
And I like sleyvas's definition of archmage. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 01:04:36
|
| I've always dubbed any wizard who gains access to 9th level spells an "arch mage." |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 01:14:58
|
I agree with Sleyvas's, too.
Some people know how to use <9th level spells far better than anyone could utilize a single 9th level spell; I'd consider such people archmages. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
|
|
|
danifae
Acolyte
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 01:05:57
|
nice opinions and I'd also be agreeing that most likely an archmage would be a mage of lvl 9 spells and higher.
Thanks for the replies  |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Wizards and Mages, clearing things up.
