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Lysan Lurraxol
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 14:03:05
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I was just re-reading Insurrection, when it struck me just how graphically violent the book was (Faeryl's demise).
A lot of the newer FR books have a lot of unnecessarily violent scenes in them, which detract from the plot. Does anyone else think it's just too much?
I have read some mature stuff (A Song of Ice and Fire), but the violence always has a purpose, except in the FR books, it's just used for shock effect. I don't want a return to the godawful Comic book Code, but it seems strange the series is so prudish about sex, yet sometimes ridiculously violent.
Edit: 'Book' has two 'O's
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Edited by - Lysan Lurraxol on 10 Jan 2007 14:18:20
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 14:12:27
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I disagree. In the Spider Queen books, its to show that the Drow are truly horrible people despite their protagonist status.
In the recent Swords of Eveningstar, the sudden and brutal capochany of violence shows the dangers of intrigue coming to a head. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Lysan Lurraxol
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 14:21:12
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I think that the violence was used to illustrate tht point, but the amount, and inanity of the violence was ridiculous, I burst out laughing when H'lassitra got eaten in Extinction. Annihilation was just ridiculous.
I was trying to make the point that a lot of the newer books are adding senseless combat scenes, I'd rather see more character and plot.
Edit: I HATE typos |
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"Come join me in the dark..." |
Edited by - Lysan Lurraxol on 10 Jan 2007 14:22:04 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 20:27:57
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Well it's not really "newer" books. I don't think that any book starring the Drow can have anything that isn't vile and repulsive to it.
I will confess that I do think that the Final Gate Trilogy had more violence than I expected.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Koushiro
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 21:21:49
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| While I do enjoy seens where the vilionce has a piont, lately it has seemed to be getting out of hand, the author just throwing in a random monster encounter for no reason other then a fight scene. I myself find myself skipping these fight scenes alot just because they start to get quite boring after a while. In my own opinion I would rather take a scene where we learn more about the character's quarks, or more about the land then a useless fight scene anyday. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:02:13
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I don't know, I've yet to read any level of violence in a Forgotten Realms novel that really shocks me. I will admit that some of the things that are described in the Watercourse Trilogy have been a bit graphic, but they really didn't shock me, just underscored that the books are trying to appeal to a little bit more "mature" pallet.
That having been said, I don't think you will see the books, across the line, getting more violent and graphic. It was less violent, but for some reason the opening of Bloodwalk affected me more than a lot of violent fight scenes did, just because of the atmosphere and the way that the region and the circumstances hit me (loved the book, but I wasn't expecting a kind of fantasy/horror mix that James P Davis managed to pull of, which I haven't really seen since the old Ravenloft days).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:54:55
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| There was a bit of violence that bugged me in the WotSQ series, but it wasn't because it was excessive -- it was because it was too clichéd for my liking. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 23:28:02
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Hmm, this is a good topic. For the most part, I don't mind the level of violence in the FR books (as strange as it is to say something like that--not minding violence!), but on occasion it does get out of hand. I mean, if the author not only mentions the protagonist disemboweled an enemy, but then proceeds to describe the color of the organs as they spill out...that's too much and more than I need to know. This is one reason I didn't like the Baldur's Gate novel--it was overly gory and graphic (and incidentally, also written by the same author of the similarly graphic Watercourse trilogy).
Finally, I agree that the level of tolerance for gory details while being more prudish and reserved about sexuality is silly. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 10 Jan 2007 23:28:54 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 23:59:12
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I'm a big fan of fictional violence, because the world and people are violent, 'gratuitously' so, and art that dodges violence can have neither a mimetic or cathartic function.
So hearing accusations of fictional violence 'just used for shock effect' sets off my alarm bells. 1. Who sez? 2. Who sez shock effect is 'just' or bad?
I've only skimmed these books, but tend to agree that bowdlerized drow would be much more offensive. But I also think the whole concept of evil drow as protagonists is morally and artistically dubious at best. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 03:40:43
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I recall one of the most violent books is Death of the Dragon. Heaps of bodies, purple dragons dying in mid-sentence with an orc scimitar through the neck, Alusair covered in blood... Butchery.
El in Hell was another blood-bath... Nergal ripping off El's arms, among other things.
Silverfall is also particularly violent... I recall a group of Shar clerics being diced to bloody ribbons as The Simbul uses their own blade barrier against them and a stone colossus pulping Thayans.
Strangely enough, these are some of my favs.  |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 11 Jan 2007 03:43:14 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 08:40:56
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Violence seldom bothers me, its usually more a case of boredom, especially when combined with long, detailed fight scenes and spellbattles. I have not noticed that the books are especialy violent lately, although I am not really that up to date one the newer books.
Generally the amount of violence, like sex, dialogue, descriptions etc that is fitting will wary from story to story and there are no set rules. |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 09:01:47
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Maybe I’m not the best to judge but my problem with the violence in wotsq wasn’t the actual violence since that was fairly tame for my tastes, but the sheer randomness of it. It just made me think twice about the Drow being a viable race, at the rate they were casually killing each other I can’t see how they can keep up their numbers.
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I'm always the Wizard! |
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Lysan Lurraxol
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 15:07:33
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The Last Mythal had a hell of a lot of violent scenes, not excessive, just a little pointless, I'd prefer it if more pages were given to character development, the chars in Last Mythal were a little wooden.
it seems strange though that we can have a description about someone's heart being ripped out and eaten, yet we've never seen a gay protagonist, Ed said (Yay!Rhymes!!) that homosexuality did exist.
But that's another topic |
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"Come join me in the dark..." |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 15:36:13
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I won't comment on this extensively, because I know where violence vs. sex scrolls go, but . . .
I wanted to say that the hyper-violence/prudish-about-sex thing is not a new thing, and is certainly not limited to Wizards or even to fantasy. Most of the movies and TV you see out there are like that, whatever the genre. It seems that Americans don't blink an eye at thousands of men blowing each other to pieces with mortars or hacking off limbs and cutting throats (they can do that on network TV these days), but show them one nipple at a super bowl halftime show, and the country gets up in arms.
I mean, I was watching a tv show last night (kudos if anyone can guess which it was) in which they had to blur even *sketched pictures* of a woman's breasts. *Badly* sketched, I might add.
A film you should really see is "This Film is Not Yet Rated," which is a documentary about the ratings system in America, talking about why you can spill as much blood and guts and profanity on the screen as you like and still get an R rating (Kill Bill, Sin City, etc., etc.), but show a woman's breasts or (gasp!) even full nudity, and you're looking at NC-17, automatically. Kevin Smith talks about how his Jersey Girl film got an NC-17 rating strictly because Liv Tyler talks about her own experiences with self-pleasure (oh no -- can't think of Arwen that way!). And when you DO have sex on a screen, it's usually violence/assault/rape.
(Note that this film itself is rated NC-17, because it does, indeed, contain material that could be offensive to viewers -- including a montage of the very scenes that were violent enough to warrant an NC-17 rating on several movies. I wouldn't recommend this to anyone but the most mature viewers.)
It is more shocking (for the ratings construct) to see two married people having completely consensual and pleasurable sex than it is to see people turned to hamburger by machine gun fire.
Which, as my somewhat derisive tone suggests, I find just patently ridiculous.
So, to conclude:
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Finally, I agree that the level of tolerance for gory details while being more prudish and reserved about sexuality is silly.
Amen, sister!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 12 Jan 2007 06:37:11 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 18:22:41
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Erik, Rin, I agree with you guys completely, but American society has such ambivalent and often downright crazy attitudes about sex that I doubt the situation you decry will change anytime soon.
The recent flap over Miss USA's naughty behavior is a case in point. You have a contest where sexy young women exhibit themselves in bikinis. You give the prize to the sexiest one of all. Then afterwards, you require demure, modest behavior from the winner. If that makes any sense at all, I hope someone will explain it to me. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 19:32:40
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Thumbs up for more sex  (or at least a slight deviation from the inevitable 'fade to black' end of paragraph).
[Spoilers from WotSQ below!]
On a serious note (and back to the original violence issue as well), I think the amount of violence in the WotSQ novels are just about perfect. The torture that so horribly mentally scarred Faeryl wasn't described, and the fact that whenever she cringed or shuddered away from Jeggred left more to the imagination and was brilliantly done (that was Dissolution). In the next book, Insurrection, I feel the killing of Faeryl was a great way to really let out Jeggreds vicious tastes, even horrifying his own comrades. Up until then he'd really been shown as a grunting 'tool' (as Halistraa describes him at the start of Condemnation), and most of his killing was still a form of self-defence or necessary killings at the command of Quenthel. The slaughter and eating of Faeryl was the first time we actually see his cold and brutal bloodthirs in action, as opposed to just a combat machine.
I'd like to differentiate between violence and combat as well. I know a lot of scribes here object to combat scenes, and I can see how they tend to make up large parts of recent books, but I have to say the final few chapters of Insurrection had me feeling tense and I was actually breathing quicker by the time the party escaped Ched Nasad, simply because of the sheer amount they had to go through, and the time it took. I don't think that in this case what might have been seen as 'excessive combat scenes' was out of place, as it really heightened the tension in a way a lot of books haven't been able.
Overall I think the tone set in the WotSQ books is perfect. There is enough violence, combat and intrigue to set a dark and troubled feeling over the whole scene, and captures the tenacity and ruthlesness of the dark elf race without being excessive. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2007 : 06:42:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Erik, Rin, I agree with you guys completely, but American society has such ambivalent and often downright crazy attitudes about sex that I doubt the situation you decry will change anytime soon.
Amen to that too! 
I think what we're getting at is that the high level of violence in our entertainment, paired with inimicable prudishness, is more of a symptom of a societal problem, and not one inherent to any particular genre.
I think the handling of "adult elements" in fiction is very much a personal thing, depending on the writer in question. I myself try very, very hard to keep the violence and sexual content of my writing on a useful, non-gratuitous level.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2007 : 06:53:42
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| After I read The Decency Wars: The Campaign to Cleanse American Culture by Frederick S Lane, it made me realize that sex/sensuality in America has been the way it is for almost a century. So, it's not that surprising that things haven't changed much. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2007 : 08:19:56
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Ive heard that the Europeans tend to be the complete opposite plenty of sex and violence is restricted.
Then theres the weird "Dont mention the war" thing that theyve got going particularly on the european mainland
I was rather amused a couple of years ago Prince Harry was caught wearing a Nazi outfit at a fancy dress party and the European parliment wanted to bring in a contient wide ban on Nazi paraphinalia but it all went pear shaped when the eastern European coutries said ok we'll support iton the condition the EU bans communist party paraphinlia with the same legislation
On the same topic a PC games like Call to Duty (which is a First person shooter where you play as an American soldier fighting Germans in WW2) Had to remove all the Nazi decals and symbols (Ie Flags hanging over balonys etc) from the European realse otherwise it couldnt be sold in some EU nations
If Janet Jacksons wardrobe malfunction probably would have resulted in a public flogging and execution if it had occured in an Islamic country
The moral seems to be that different cultures have different red buttons
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Lysan Lurraxol
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2007 : 09:02:23
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Yes, there is a very different attitude in Europe, I remember that there was something over the new GTA game in America, some mod caused a huge legal battle, because it involved sex, but nothing happened in Britain, the ratings team said the violent content warranted an 18 rating even without the mod.
I don't mnd violence in fiction, but sometimes the culmative effect in books makes me want to throw something. |
http://lysan.livejournal.com
"Come join me in the dark..." |
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quajack
Seeker
86 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2007 : 00:43:32
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| Erik Scott de Bie referenced Beauty and the Geek in his first post. One night my wife was watching an episode marathon and I walked through the room. I've been hooked ever since. Damn reality TV. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2007 : 17:34:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It is more shocking (for the ratings construct) to see two married people having completely consensual and pleasurable sex than it is to see people turned to hamburger by machine gun fire.
Which, as my somewhat derisive tone suggests, I find just patently ridiculous.
Well, there's not much for me to add on that subject; thanks Erik.
Reminds me of the old Elfquest complaints over one page of group sex (not really showing anything) in a magazine also containing about ten pages of violence and blood. That was obviously more suitable for children in some parents minds. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2007 : 17:58:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Ive heard that the Europeans tend to be the complete opposite plenty of sex and violence is restricted.
Then theres the weird "Dont mention the war" thing that theyve got going particularly on the european mainland
I was rather amused a couple of years ago Prince Harry was caught wearing a Nazi outfit at a fancy dress party and the European parliment wanted to bring in a contient wide ban on Nazi paraphinalia but it all went pear shaped when the eastern European coutries said ok we'll support iton the condition the EU bans communist party paraphinlia with the same legislation
On the same topic a PC games like Call to Duty (which is a First person shooter where you play as an American soldier fighting Germans in WW2) Had to remove all the Nazi decals and symbols (Ie Flags hanging over balonys etc) from the European realse otherwise it couldnt be sold in some EU nations
If Janet Jacksons wardrobe malfunction probably would have resulted in a public flogging and execution if it had occured in an Islamic country
The moral seems to be that different cultures have different red buttons
I believe one of the main reasons that a lot of european games are 'toned down' (and also the reason they take longer to import) is that they often have to be translated into the common 'european' languages, and additionally have to be appropriate to all audiences in western europe.
Very often games have blood and gore taken out, and sometimes sex, because the german laws on censorship are stricter than others in the EU, hence to make pass in germany/england/france/italy/spain etc it is simpler to edit the single version for all countries.
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2007 : 17:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Ive heard that the Europeans tend to be the complete opposite plenty of sex and violence is restricted.
Then theres the weird "Dont mention the war" thing that theyve got going particularly on the european mainland
I was rather amused a couple of years ago Prince Harry was caught wearing a Nazi outfit at a fancy dress party and the European parliment wanted to bring in a contient wide ban on Nazi paraphinalia but it all went pear shaped when the eastern European coutries said ok we'll support iton the condition the EU bans communist party paraphinlia with the same legislation
On the same topic a PC games like Call to Duty (which is a First person shooter where you play as an American soldier fighting Germans in WW2) Had to remove all the Nazi decals and symbols (Ie Flags hanging over balonys etc) from the European realse otherwise it couldnt be sold in some EU nations
If Janet Jacksons wardrobe malfunction probably would have resulted in a public flogging and execution if it had occured in an Islamic country
The moral seems to be that different cultures have different red buttons
You'd be right. The Britsh, like the Americans, but to a lesser degree are still quite prudish about sex, yet are quite happy to see plentiful violence. Whereas on the mainland, Germany and the Netherlands spring to mind, they're far more relaxed about sex (fewer teenage pregnancies etc. compared to Britain, to me there is a link there, but that's another matter). Germany, however, is very strict about the amount of violence in its games, I'm less sure about other countries, but one can understand why this is a sensitive issue to Germans. For example, using blood in games that is red (rather than green, say) gets a higher rating. Different cultures and histories, different rules.
I'm certainly in agreement with Erik, Richard, Rino etc. in that I find the taboos about sex and nudity ridiculous, but I do think that some censorship of violence also goes too far. There is too much media hype about TV/computer games/D&D/Marilyn Manson/Pokemon/you know it 'causing' people to do whatever. However, I also don't think the casual treatment of violence to the extent that nobody bats an eyelid is a good position to be in. There needs to be a balance.
Finally, with regards to the Realms, I've not read WOTSQ, but I hadn't noticed an increase in violence in recent novels. My take on it is if it seems appropriate to the story, then it belongs there. Yet the Realms novels have to work to industry and cultural standards, whether I like them or not, so we're not going to get explicitly (or even implicitly) gay protagonists for example (but again, that's a different kettle of fish we've debated before). |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 03:45:29
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| By the way Wizards have already broken the gay novel character taboo however as it was used in the worst FR novel ever written I dont think WOTC will be that keen to give it another go |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 04:02:19
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| Which novel was that? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 04:16:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
Which novel was that?
Well technically its a whole series the Baldurs gate series of Novels by Phil Athans and he turned Imoen into a Lesbian for the novels |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 04:50:52
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| No wonder why I drew a blank. I barely consider those official Realmslore, haven't read them yet, they're on the bottom of my list. Turning a game into a set of meaningful novels is a difficult task. Unfortunate that this more comprehensive inclusion of sexual orientation was found in a rather niche line of the franchise. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 04:57:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
By the way Wizards have already broken the gay novel character taboo however as it was used in the worst FR novel ever written I dont think WOTC will be that keen to give it another go
It was kinda broken in Spellfire, when Lhaeo said that outside the walls of Elminster's tower, he (Lhaeo) was thought to be "a simpering man-lover from Baldur's Gate". |
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Lysan Lurraxol
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 14:59:28
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I suppose the Imoen thing was in the second book, I threw the first book into a dark corner months ago, it's still there.
I can here it moving in the night. I think it likes the taste of human flesh. |
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Is the violence too much?
