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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 10:26:51
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Hi all,
I was watching Troy on telly last night and it got me thinking.
Where abouts in the realms has a Greek style to it?
I know we all have covered different regions and there real world comparables but I can't seem to think where a Greek style would fit.
Unther and mulhorand = egypt
Dales = swiss/england
cormyr / sembia = italy, France and spain.
Maztica = inca mayan southern america with the spanish invaders type theme.
etc:
But Greece and Troy ????
Any help or suggestions please.
Delz
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 10:35:01
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I think that the closest "Greek-style" area is Chessenta. I seem to remember some-one saying that (Ed?) |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 10:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ateth Istarlin
I think that the closest "Greek-style" area is Chessenta. I seem to remember some-one saying that (Ed?)
Ahh that rings a bell now.. Thanks.
Now where do I find more info? must hit my books FRCS and FR Adventures here I come!
Was there a source book covering the area for 2e? I can't remember.
Delz
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
735 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 13:32:24
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quote:
Was there a source book covering the area for 2e? I can't remember.
Delz
Chessenta was covered in FR10-Old Empires. Available as a download from Paizo. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 13:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Was there a source book covering the area for 2e? I can't remember.
Delz
Chessenta was covered in FR10-Old Empires. Available as a download from Paizo.
Yep That was it, I'd forgot 
I prefer hard copies but i'll get the DL.
But if anyone has a good copy for sale or trade PM please.
Delz
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 14:25:54
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It also wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine the ancient and now sunken empire of Jhaambath being somewhat akin to ancient greece. Given its close proximity to modern day Chessenta, perhaps it even inspired the society, architecture, government, etc of the more recent realm. In fact, perhaps Chessenta could be home to a small cult who have taken up the worship of Auppenser, the Jhaamdathan deity of enlightenment, psionics, and serenity.
EDIT: Of course, in the real world Atlantis was first mentioned by the Greek philosopher Plato, and many legends describe that mythical city/kingdom has having Greek-esque architecture. Jhaambath and Atlantis would be quite a good fit. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 22 Feb 2007 14:53:26 |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 21:15:20
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
EDIT: Of course, in the real world Atlantis was first mentioned by the Greek philosopher Plato, and many legends describe that mythical city/kingdom has having Greek-esque architecture. Jhaambath and Atlantis would be quite a good fit.
Now Atlantis I like though I belong to a different school of thought better discussed through PM rarther than the keep's boards..... nbnmare if interested PM me...
But the info on the ancient and now sunken empire of Jhaambath intriges me anymore info please post!
Delz
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
1025 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 21:51:29
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| Chessenta is definitely the obvious Greek influence, though since then the Greek-ness of Chessenta has diminshed greatly and the overall presentation of Chessenta has become somewhat muddled in novels such as the Shadow Stone and the horribly goofy Council of something or other book, as well as just reconciling the technology level of the Realms with ancient Greece and the current status as Tchazzar's kingdom. That said until Tchazzar's return it was clearly a bunch of often feuding city states, with obvious Athens and Sparta clones, lots of togas (though they seem to have largely disappeared), an Olympics, and an abiding love of some of the seemingly more Greek like gods such as Lathander, Tchazzar, and Assuran. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 22:00:18
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Cheers Tom
I always have liked old greek style adventures and films for that matter, Golden Fleece, Jason and the Argonauts etc. and now after re matching Troy, although it had Brad Pitt in it and was not entirley accurate.
I have a adventure idea brewing of a typiacally greek setting but with my character as a son of a god (Tiefling or such) with demonic evil coursing through his soul.... and so on.
Now I have my setting I just need to research it a lot and put the adenture together.
Thanks.
Delz
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 15:16:23
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The most obvious comparison to Ancient Greece would be Chessenta, like Tom said, but I also like to think of Amn as having a lot of "Greek/Roman influences".
I just don't usually draw direct comparisons between our Earth and the Realms... Ed has said that TSR designers liked to do that with all the FR accessories, and thus we have, for example, Celts and Greeks and Egypteans in FR Canon.
I guess it is very natural and human to try to mold/adapt our environments (even imaginary ones) into familiar concepts and customs - something we can understand and relate to. And it also makes your job easier, since you don't have to design a completely unique or new culture in pain-stakingly vivid detail, but have a LOT of Real World information on the subject ("So you're asking about local dressing habits? Ummm... wait... I've got a book and there are cool pictures of people in togas in it!" etcetera.)
Personally, I like to think of all the countries in the Realms as completely separate (in the direct cultural sense) from our world. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 16:07:31
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Even despite the fact the people and gods of Mulhorand and Unther, as well as several other deities, originate on Earth?  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 16:32:28
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| Even people from elsewhere would eventually change and adapt, at least a little. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 09:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
Even despite the fact the people and gods of Mulhorand and Unther, as well as several other deities, originate on Earth?
As I said, I doubt very much that Ed's version of the Realms had so many RW deities and cultural influences (although he has said that there are portals to Earth). What I mean by "direct" cultural sense is that I don't like to adopt whole cultures ("Alright, people of the Moonshaes are 100% like Celts.").
Yes, I know that the pantheons of both Mulhorand and Unther consist of Mesopotamian and Egyptean deities, and I don't like it one bit. I have succesfully avoided the subject so far, as we have never had any campaigns or adventures there... although we had one PC from Thay |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 23:38:36
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These people may have come from Earth...but how long ago was that? Like I said, culture changes over time.
That being said, I agree that it's best not to think of the various Realms as being directly analogous to places in the real world. Ed Greenwood himself has commented on this issue, and it's been discussed time and again. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 23:47:34
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Actually, I seem to recall it was Ed who was responsible for introducing the Finnish deities, namely Kiputytto (who was later renamed Talona, and said to have killed a deity by the earlier name), Loviatar, and Mielikki. I could be wrong, though.
Ed's version of the Realms certainly has concepts, (or at least used to have) deities, and characters from more recent RW sources, such as C.S. Lewis' Narnia series and Michael Moorcock's Elric novels. For example, Nobanion was originally named Aslan. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 26 Feb 2007 23:54:39 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 00:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
That being said, I agree that it's best not to think of the various Realms as being directly analogous to places in the real world. Ed Greenwood himself has commented on this issue, and it's been discussed time and again.
Indeed.
Let us not turn this into another "Real world influences vs. the Realms" debate. Ed has successively, and satisfyingly, tackled that particular issue in his April '06 replies.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 00:30:08
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| And even though they are from D&D's version of Earth, that doesn't meant they are the same people of RL's Earth. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 00:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
Actually, I seem to recall it was Ed who was responsible for introducing the Finnish deities, namely Kiputytto (who was later renamed Talona, and said to have killed a deity by the earlier name), Loviatar, and Mielikki. I could be wrong, though.
Ed's version of the Realms certainly has concepts, (or at least used to have) deities, and characters from more recent RW sources, such as C.S. Lewis' Narnia series and Michael Moorcock's Elric novels. For example, Nobanion was originally named Aslan.
Nobanion originally was, in part, based on Aslan, so Ed has said in the old "Down to Earth Divinity" article for DRAGON #54. Which also covers most of what you just outlined above about the other deities.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 00:41:14
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It's a bit silly to get worked up about real world influences on cultures, considering 95% of all D&D races and monsters are taken from real world mythology and earlier RW works of fiction. Heck, even most aberrations are obviously inspired by the Cthulu mythos.
Let's face it, pretty much any ideas modern society can think of in regards to fantasy fiction, people like the Celts, Gauls, Norse, Greeks, Arabians, Jews, Africans, Chinese, Japanese, Aboriginees, native Americans, etc, etc already dreamed up millenia ago .
EDIT: Oh, and even several class names derive from individual real world cultures. 'Bard' refers purely to Celtic poets and scholars, 'druid' only to Celtic priests, the original meaning of 'barbarian' was "someone who isn't Greek", 'monk' was the term given to Greek hermits, and 'paladin' was originally used to refer to chamberlains of the Roman Emperor. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 27 Feb 2007 01:01:49 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 01:05:09
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| The parts of Faerun I dislike most are the later TSR add-ons like Kara-Tur, Matzica or the Hordelands which are merely fanciful versions of real historical places. Ed's Realms are a lot more original than that and much more interesting. |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 01:11:12
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Dear fellow scribes:
With all due respect to the fine participating scribes in this thread, was Sage's admonishment not to turn this into another discussion about "Real World in FR," not clear enough?
Lets please move past this particular overarching part of the discussion.
Thanks.
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 01:19:50
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My post was a statement (with conclusive examples) that real world influences are prevalent in D&D in its entirety and thus complaining about "real world things" in FR particular seems silly. It was in no way an attempt to further discuss whether elements of the Realms are unique creations or lifted from real life (though as I said, almost any idea anyone could come up with for any fantasy setting is simply a variation on something that has been thought of before, somewhere and somehow).
That being said, considering the original topic of this thread is in regards to a possible similarity (influence != similarity) between Earth and the Realms, presumbably it is still allowed to discuss that?
If so, I would say it would make sense to extrapolate on the fact that the first 'monks' in our world were found in Greece, and suggest that the first monks in the Forgotten Realms were found in Jhaamdath. The Netherese of course had a magic (and thus wizard)-orientated culture, the Illuskans and probably the Talfirans of the time were mainly nature orientated (with barbarians, bards/skalds, rangers/hunters, druids, etc), and the monk doesn't really fit in with the early Coramshite culture very well*
* (Most commoners were just that, with the remainder being rogues; the upper classes seemed to have been too concerned with decadence, conquest, and warfare to find a monastic lifestyle appealing. That being said, Coramshite was probably the second Realms culture to have monks, since it seems likely Ilmater was a Coramshite deity.) |
Edited by - nbnmare on 27 Feb 2007 02:11:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 03:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
My post was a statement (with conclusive examples) that real world influences are prevalent in D&D in its entirety and thus complaining about "real world things" in FR particular seems silly.
Yeah, but that's not what we were talking about. What I was talking about, personally, was that the lands and cultures of the Realms are not directly analogous to lands in cultures in the real world (that is, Cormyr does not equal France, the Dalelands do not equal Germany, Amn does not equal Spain, etc.). This isn't just what I think, either--by all his comments on the issue Ed Greenwood seems to agree. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 13:50:26
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But the thing is, that's not we're talking about either . No one has said in this thread (and probably in very few other places) that anywhere in the Realms is directly analogous to anywhere in the real world. The initial topic in this thread was about a possibly similarity, and similarities and direct analogies are nowhere near being the same thing. Even influences and simlarities are not neccessarily the same thing; two things can be similar without one being a copy of the other. For example, real world Aztec culture and real world Egyptian culture are similar in some respects, but that hardly means one influenced the development of the other.
Inspired by and influenced by are also not the same thing. For instance, the suggestion in my previous post that Jhaamdath could have been the first civilization to have monks was inspired by the fact the real world Greek civilzation was possibly the first civilization (in Europe at least) to have monks, in that the latter generated the idea for the former. If had said that Jhaamdathan monks should be direct copies of Greek monks, living alone in the wilderness, then I would have been suggesting a direct influence; however, as it happens I think Jhaamdathan monks would have lived in rather opulent monasteries, perhaps more focused on enhancing the powers of their minds than their physical bodies as with most modern monks of the Realms.
Two things can also be equivalent to one another without one being a copy of the other or without any influences being evolved. For example, "the Lords of Waterdeep are the equivalent of Amn's Council of Six" . This simply acknowledge that both are groups of secretive government leaders; it doesn't imply that one is a copy of the other, or one was inspired by or influenced by the other. Similarly, "The Netherese Empire is the Forgotten Realms' equivalent of the Roman empire" does not in any way suggest that the Netherese Empire is a copy of, inspired by or influenced by the Roman Empire, it merely acknowledges that the two have certain things in common.
I'm pretty sure no-one has ever said something like "oh that Cormyr, it's EXACTLY like medieval France" or even "Cormyr is extremely similar to medieval France." What they are more likely to have said is "Cormyr reminds me of medieval France", "Cormyr seems somewhat similar to medieval France", or "if you're looking to set a campaign in Cormyr, you could look to real medieval French history for ideas, as the two places have certain things in common". Again, these do not neccessarily imply that Cormyr in any way actually was inspired by medieval France, just that to person making the observation, they have certain simularities... which could very well be due to nothing more than coincidence.
And once again, to the mods: I am not talking about whether any real world elements are in the Forgotten Realms or even inspired elements of the Forgotten Realms. I am talking about certain aspects of the Forgotten Realms being similar to certain aspects of the real world and, as I said, that doesn't even imply the creator of that particular element of the Realms was inspired by anything from the real world; the two things beeing similar could easily be sheer coicidence.
I am assuming that whether or particular elements of the Realms actually are similar due to sheer coincidence, or whether there was a direct influence is what you don't wish to be discussed, and so I have not done so n the posst. What I am saying is that we are discussing possible similarities, not influences.
EDIT: In fact, prior to these last two posts the only person who talk about a possible "influence" in this thread was a Forgotten Realms designer... |
Edited by - nbnmare on 27 Feb 2007 14:25:02 |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 14:56:34
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Hmmmmm my thread has gotten out of control!
as nbnmare said I was asking about " The initial topic in this thread was about a possibly similarity," ish!
ie:
" Hi all,
I was watching Troy on telly last night and it got me thinking.
Where abouts in the realms has a Greek style to it?
I know we all have covered different regions and there real world comparables but I can't seem to think where a Greek style would fit.
Unther and mulhorand = egypt
Dales = swiss/england
cormyr / sembia = italy, France and spain.
Maztica = inca mayan southern america with the spanish invaders type theme.
etc:
But Greece and Troy ????
Any help or suggestions please."
So I thank
Ateth Istarlin
Thauramarth
nbnmare
TomCosta
Asgetrion
For there answers re the topic, You have all said pretty much the same and given me source/cannon to research.
Now please! lets stop the debate on whether this place or that was or wasn't or is or isn't like that place. Real World or Realms!!!!!
Twas not what I asked..... I asked where had a GREEK STYLEthis has now been answered.
I Thankyou
Delz
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2007 : 13:22:17
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| The points Tom Costa and nbnmare raised are very much of interest to me. Though I appreciate that Delzounblood didn't intend to spawn that specific discussion in this thread. I realize the subject is something of a dead horse. But I'd be happy to chime in if a new thread gets started on the matter of RW inspirations and influences. Okay, enough on that, sorry Delz. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 13:59:39
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Sage and Arhkaedun,
please don't close this thread, since I think this is a very productive discussion about a relevant aspect of the Realms. At least it has got me thinking about my own personal tastes and preferences, and I don't see this being arguing for argument's sake. Neither is this about who "wins" or who is "right", since we all acknowledge the fact that every DM may run his FR campaigns as he or she sees fit.
I think everyone is simply presenting their own views about how TSR/WoTC has portayed the Realms (and RW influences there) and how that relates to/is different from their own (and in some cases, Ed's) vision of the Realms.
I may be blunt and straight-forward with my opinions, but I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings here :)
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
Actually, I seem to recall it was Ed who was responsible for introducing the Finnish deities, namely Kiputytto (who was later renamed Talona, and said to have killed a deity by the earlier name), Loviatar, and Mielikki. I could be wrong, though.
No, you are correct. Mielikki and Kiputytto are indeed Finnish deities, but their "FR versions" have been heavily modified to better suit their portfolios and the whole concept of being "global deities" instead of local demigods. Let me illustrate my point...
In the finnish mythology Mielikki is Tapio's wife (Tapio is an East Finnish forest spirit or god, called "Lord of the Forest", whom hunters prayed to before a hunt), and they have four children: Annikki, Tellervo, Nyyrikki (the god of hunting), and Tuulikki.
She is generally described as a beautiful woman (at least it was wise to think and speak of her as one for luck in hunting ;) but just as often is portrayed as an old crone, wandering around in the woods while sampling fresh berries. She is also said to be more of a "good and obedient household wife"-type than an energetic ranger. Also, no relationship with unicorns, either.
I think that Ed has sort of "combined" aspects and traits from all sorts of nature deities into one goddess.
Kiputytto (Girl of Pain) is an evil Finnish spirit, who inflicts pain by grinding her Pain Stone. Some Finnish healing spells mention her weeping often.
Loviatar (alternative names Loveatar, Lovetar, Lovehetar, Louhetar, Louhi and Louhiatar) is a blind daughter of Tuoni, the god of death in Finnish mythology. She was said to be the worst of them all. She was impregnated by wind and gave birth to nine sons, the Nine diseases.
Other tales portay her as on old witch-crone, who fights Vainamoinen and other heroes of Kalevala. No mention of whips or barbed hooks ;)
Again, two separate deities who have become a single FR goddess. Loviatar may have also inspired Talona, as she was the Mother of Diseases.
So that is what I mean by cultural inspiration or influence... Ed has been influenced by the Finnish deities, but he didn't "cut-and-paste" them into FR mythos. Also, I don't see any other Finnish references or influences in the Realms.
Another point of view might be that these Finnish deities adopted themselves to the cultures of the Realms - hence the differences :D
I feel that one of the means used by Ed to stress this difference between our world and the Realms has been through languages. When we read novels or play, I guess everyone prefers his/her native language. Yet we know that Common, Elven or Chondathan are not related to english (or finnish) as Ed has given a lot of examples of their vocabularies.
There is also a great difference in names (although according to some designers there also seem to be plenty of Johns, Gregors, Roberts etc.) When I play in the Realms, I don't want to meet an innkeeper named John Wilkins (for example) or Powell Carter. Or a Purple Dragon officer by the name of Gustaf or Siegfried.
Please note that I am not saying that it is wrong or bad to use RW cultures (or names) in the Realms as they are or have been. It just doesn't work for me, and I hardly wish to spend my cash on sourcebooks that just incorporate them with only a little or no modification (and FR flavor) at all. If I wanted to do that, I would go to a library and borrow some books on those cultures. 'Great Glacier' is a good example of this - Eskimos/Inuits in the Realms? Now which portal did they stumble through? (compare their language to RW Inuit languages...)
Roleplaying (and reading), to me, is about escapism. I want to immerse myself in a completely different environment, where people, cities and lands are known by "alien-sounding" names. I don't want to meet Illuskan/Northmen barbarians, who speak Swedish or Norwegian, or Chessents who speak Greek.
And if I wanted to play a game set in Ancient Egypt, I would probably buy Gurps, instead of running D&D in Mulhorand.
quote:
Ed's version of the Realms certainly has concepts, (or at least used to have) deities, and characters from more recent RW sources, such as C.S. Lewis' Narnia series and Michael Moorcock's Elric novels. For example, Nobanion was originally named Aslan.
Yes, although I was never referring to fantasy literature from other RW authors (which are also set in fantasy worlds) but "cut-and-paste"-tactics to drop whole RW cultures into the Realms. For example, Maztica (why didn't they name it Azteca? ;) seems (IMHO) to be an exact copy of the Aztec culture. They even had to include Helmite Conquistadors... 
If a designer likes certain RW cultures, why not at least change some aspects to fit the setting better? Why not properly think of how the culture in question would be different in the Forgotten Realms (language, names, architecture, arts, etc.)? Why would such a culture develop EXACTLY the same way as it did in our world? Why not put some EFFORT into trying to bring something new to the table?
But you are bringing up good points :) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 16:29:07
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Let's be honest about this. There's actually not much new under the sun.
If you buy into Jung's basic theory, very similar basic 'archetypes' and 'myths' are found again and again across many, many different cultures and time periods in real world history. A lot of exhaustive work has been done to back that theory up, and it does seem to hold water. At least the notion that very similar themes and story motifs occur repeatedly in lots of different cultures.
The Forgotten Realms is highly derivative of Middle-earth, for example. It is preposterous to suggest otherwise--imo, that would amount to an insult to people's intelligence, really. In FR we have elves, dwarves, hobbits (renamed halflings or 'the hin'), wizards, orcs, dragons, etc. You even have a Gandlaf-like figure in Elminster.
This is no great sin or failure, imho. Some of the greatest literary works in the fantasy genre all rely on very similar conventions. Indeed, it is those conventions that (in great part) establish the genre!
Many of the sources of inspiration even in Ed's highly original imagination may be found in medieval and Renaissance Europe. Castles, kings, noble courts, knights, arms, technology, trade and commerce, basic features of the organization of society, and many, many other similarities abound. To argue otherwise would be denial.
Now that said, is FR chockfull of it's own original material? Yes, of course! The Realms very clearly has its own unique identity. The Forgotten Realms doesn't remind me in the slightest bit of Middle-earth, for example--even though it draws from many of the elements the Tolkien developed from his extensive knowledge of northern European myth, legend, and folklore. (And sorry, but again it would just be silly to deny that it does.)
The Realms has a number of locations that have only the slimmest analogue with the real world. The Shaar, for example, seems highly original (although even there, perhaps Shaarans are slightly reminiscent of American Indian tribes on the plains).
Personally, I consider Steven Schend's work with the Lands of Intrigue an excellent example of how to draw from real world inspirations, yet at the same time rendering the setting in a truly fresh, original manner. The elements of Moorish Spain, Turkey, and Scotland (and I would add Byzantium) are clearly there in the setting. Steven is up front about that. But the material is so richly detailed with its own unique history (tremendously so), and fresh features all its own, that it stands firmly on its own as a truly original setting. The real world inspirations serve as 'touchstones', as Steven puts it. And those elements are satisfying and enjoyable in their own right. But in no way do they dominate the sense of place.
Moonshaes achieves a similar sense of uniqueness imo, although it is so clearly derived from the Celtic civilzation.
At the other end of the spectrum we have locations like Maztica, Mulhorand, Kara-Tur, etc., which are transparently modeled after real world places and cultures. Here we have real world cultures almost directly mapped onto the Forgotten Realms in a way that actually works against immersion.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble. But I think developers need carry no chip on their shoulders when they draw from real world analogues. The artistry is in adapting it, and rendering the setting in a truly fresh, creative, and unique form.
One last thought. There's an analogy to this creative process to be found in music. Good studies in musicology have suggested that the human ear is typically most pleased when it can anticipate the next note the majority of the time--and also when the ear is occasionally suprised by the next tone, i.e., one that it did not quite expect. So there's always a good portion of the conventions that we are accustomed to, with a good number of original surprises sprinkled in. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 22:13:00
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THIS IS NOT A TOPIC OF REALMS V REAL WORLD COMPARISONS PLEASE READ FIRST POST!!!!!!!!!
DELZ
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 23:03:11
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| You're right Delzoun, we should respect your wishes. Apologies. Asgetrion if you want to create a new thread on the spinoff subject I'll gladly repost what I wrote here there. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 23:09:30
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Thanks Lemernis
Please note I have asked for this thread to be closed by the MODS!!!!
Delz
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Greek style Realms Location?
Topic Locked
