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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 02:47:04
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I have a question.
I am DM-assisting in an upcoming game. (This is the DMs first game, and I'm helping with the mechanics points.) My character is secretely under Mind Control of the BBEG. The fact is that he, occasionally, will do Evil, Evil things, completely out of his control. Should this affect his alignment?
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 18:53:20
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| Seeing as the character is not willingly commiting these acts, I would have to say no, it won't change his alignment. Not even Paladins fall for that. (It would have to be a Willing Evil act). |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:32:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Seeing as the character is not willingly commiting these acts, I would have to say no, it won't change his alignment. Not even Paladins fall for that. (It would have to be a Willing Evil act).
But a paladin would certainly strive to undo and atone for all that he has done under mind-control 
There is a spell in Book of Vile Darkness ("Morality Undone") which changes a character's alignment to CE, and he/she has to succeed in a Will save after the spell has expired to prevent a permanent alignment change. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 22:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
But a paladin would certainly strive to undo and atone for all that he has done under mind-control
I agree--in fact, I think atonement (formal or not) for any good character would be appropriate. But I don't think his alignment should be changed. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 22:38:37
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Oh yes, I agree too. A Paladin would have to strive to undo what he has done while mindcontrolled, but I wouldn't have the Paladin fall or change alignment.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36977 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 23:34:12
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| Although... I'd likely penalize the paladin while he was under the direct control of the bad guy, and he'd definitely receive signs of disfavor from his deity until he'd righted the wrongs committed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 01:17:55
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I definitely agree with the general consensus. However, I would say that *any* good character should attempt to atone in some way, not just paladins. It doesn't really matter if the attempt is something relatively small; the intent behind the deed matters far more than the deed itself. If, after some time has passed, the character has expressed no remorse for his actions while controlled and hasn't attempted to attone, that is when his alignment should be changed.
The same could also be applied in reverse, though only in certain circumstances. While it is usually perfectly acceptable for evil characters to do good deeds (as long as they have an non-good reason for deing so, such as a hefty reward, or as cover for more nefarious actions), some deeds an evil character might perform while being mind controlled would certainly require that they attempt to "attone". For example, an evil Malar-worshipping ranger who saves a small woodland village from a pack of werewolves, an evil fighter with Bane as his patron deity who frees a group of slaves, or an evil wizard who frees the subjects of his decades-long series of illicit experiments should all feel the need to correct what they've done; in these examples, slaughtering the villagers himself, rounding up the escaped slaves, and capturing either his former subjects or a batch of new ones would be a good start. If any of these characters are willing to "forgive and forget", they're displaying strong neutral tendencies. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 01:20:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Although... I'd likely penalize the paladin while he was under the direct control of the bad guy, and he'd definitely receive signs of disfavor from his deity until he'd righted the wrongs committed.
This reminds me of our Waterdeep campaign and a paladin of Helm who kept ignoring visions he received from his god (warnings about the Unseen and hints of an imminent sacred quest to vanquish them). He lost all his powers and became a fighter, and his Penance Time lasted until our characters finally slew Hlaavin (after several years of real time)   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36977 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 03:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
While it is usually perfectly acceptable for evil characters to do good deeds (as long as they have an non-good reason for deing so, such as a hefty reward, or as cover for more nefarious actions)
I'm going to disagree with this part. An evil nature does not mean that someone does nothing but evil, 24/7. Even an evil person can do good acts, and do them out of kindness.
An excellent non-Realms example is Raistlin and Bupu, or Raistlin and Chrysania. Raistlin was a pretty evil git... Yet he showed nothing but kindness to Bupu, because he knew what it was like to be picked on. And at the end, he chose to save Chrysania -- he didn't have to do that; he could have left her to die, as he had originally intended. Knowing he was screwed either way, he still chose to show her a final act of kindness.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 04:19:02
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When I was talking to my players about alignment, one of the things I said is that your alignment is more or less what you are 75% of the time, which of course is just kind of my way of saying that most of the time, if you are lawful good, you are thinking in orderly, reverential terms, and most of the time you think of how to do good and help other people even before you think of yourself, but there are times that will come up, fairly often, where you "deviate," and those moments, so long as they are moments here and there, don't alter your alignment.
For example, I've always considered it more or less evil to ENJOY the death of another, especially if you cause it yourself. Most good people, even if they have to kill, lament that fact. But if someone is really twisted and evil, and has been a thorn in your side for a long time, you may indeed be happy to see them suffer. Its actually an evil "moment," but as long as the next time you take a life, you are saddened by the need for it, or at the very least you feel that its just something that had to happen for good to be done, then your alignment is consistant.
By the same measure, a character that is evil may love his wife and child, and buy them gifts and spend time with them, but he loves to torture captured enemies, laughs when he beheads anyone that is foolish enough to oppose him, and more than willing to sacrifice innocents to accomplish his goals. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 12:59:19
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I think that there is one possibility of mind-control effecting alignment, and it all has to do with guilt.
Guilt is a powerfully motivating force, and is seldom rational or predictable.
Guilt can make you better than you were or far far worse. There are some very classic examples of guilt making you a better person. Quakers became the first abolitionists because of the guilt that they felt over participating in slavery. But I don't think that you're looking a changing your character to a good alignment.
I think that a very strong argument can be made that Anakin Skywalker became a Sith due to guilt, not because of an evil nature.
He thinks to himself, "I have done things that no Jedi should, I have thought things that no Jedi should, I must no longer be a Jedi. If I am not a Jedi, I must be a Sith."
Thats an oversimplification, and I don't necessarilly want to debate it, but I think that we can say a guilty conscience helped to move him toward evil.
A historic example is Bartholomew Roberts, a 17th century tea-tottler. Captured by pirates off of the coast of Africa, he was pressed into service as a navigator, but continued to resist the pirates on moral grounds. When the Captain was killed, the crew elected him the new Captain. Suddenly, he shed his objections and became Black Bart Roberts, the most successful pirate captain in history.
We don't know for sure what motivated his change of heart, but is it out of the question that guilt over his forced service may have driven his future willing actions of villainy? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 12 Mar 2007 13:00:14 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 15:54:15
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| That's actually a really good point Walker . . . its easy to say, from a detatched point of view, that a person isn't responsible for their actions if they were compelled by magic, etc. But that wouldn't mean that if the blood was literally in YOUR hands that you could just shrug off what you did. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 16:57:04
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Thanks, Knight
On top of which, playing to that whole guilt shifting perception vibe really opens some opportunities for a Fallen Hero Paladin/Blackguard vibe. Heck Anakin/Darth Vader. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 23:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
That's actually a really good point Walker . . . its easy to say, from a detatched point of view, that a person isn't responsible for their actions if they were compelled by magic, etc. But that wouldn't mean that if the blood was literally in YOUR hands that you could just shrug off what you did.
Those are my thoughts, exactly. You should have to pay, in some way, for commiting evil acts if they were especially egregious (like murder).
I'm actually reminded of a Neverwinter Nights module that featured this scenario. At one point (as part of the plot), your paladin PC is forced to do something especially horrible against his/her will...but afterwards, you still have to atone for it, even though your alignment doesn't change, and there are a few times when you are rewarded for having a repentant attitude. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Mar 2007 23:59:07 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:35:45
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| Your minds have long been under my control, and soon, soon, I shall be master of all that is! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 07:10:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Your minds have long been under my control, and soon, soon, I shall be master of all that is!
Yes lord and master, we are at thy command and eagerly await thine orders. The Muffins shalt return! |
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turox
Learned Scribe
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 18:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Your minds have long been under my control, and soon, soon, I shall be master of all that is!
You go right ahead with your bad self and be master of all that is. I am having a hard enough time trying to be master of myself. |
Turox Antas Dragonslayer -
"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."
Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).
Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 20:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
Thanks, Knight
On top of which, playing to that whole guilt shifting perception vibe really opens some opportunities for a Fallen Hero Paladin/Blackguard vibe. Heck Anakin/Darth Vader.
Hmmm... do you remember if that was what also happened to Scullya Darkhope? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 20:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Your minds have long been under my control, and soon, soon, I shall be master of all that is!
Ah, now that explains why I decided to start studying to become a librarian! And it explains my failing memory, too! You nasty bastard... just wait till... wait... now what was I about to say? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:02:21
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| As I recall, Scyulla mimics this very closely, Astegerion. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Alignment and Mind-Control
