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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 02:42:14
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A few years back Dragon Magazine published an article that basically set a bunch of different monsters as "summonable" and figured the range of CR that a given summon spell should be able to summon. I liked this, and it worked with what I did in my campaigns, where I wanted wizards or sorcerers to research or make a knowledge check to know about a given creature before they summon the creature, and that the creature has to be summoned and contacted once to "bind" it before it can be used in combat.
Now, when I started reading about the templates that they updated for 3.5 in the Planar Handbook, they mentioned that you should take one creature off the "standard" summon list for each one you let a wizard cast, because having the ability to summon similar creatures with alternate templates makes the spells too versatile.
I'm wondering if this is a major balance issue. Is it a big deal to be able to summon axiomatic lions on top of celestial ones? I can see that it does make you a little more versatile, but how much so?
I was thinking that if I just gave a wizard a "blank slate" with a certain number of slots would work for a wizard, but when I look at the actual spells, there isn't a set number of creatures on the lists. Some have 10 monsters to choose from, some have 8, some have 16, for example.
So if I did say a wizard that learns "Summon Monster X" gets a certain number of slots he can fill with summoned creatures, how many creatures should he get? I was thinking, perhaps 4 + your intelligence bonus might work.
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 06:35:21
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Now, when I started reading about the templates that they updated for 3.5 in the Planar Handbook, they mentioned that you should take one creature off the "standard" summon list for each one you let a wizard cast, because having the ability to summon similar creatures with alternate templates makes the spells too versatile.
Please explain... I haven't looked at the Planar Handbook in a while (and I only do so usually to re-re-memorize what the planar bard substitution levels are...) and I don't quite remember what you mean here. To tell the truth, I didn't remember that a wizard could summon a creature with a template. I know some feats allow you to slap a template to all monsters you summon (such as Greenbound Summoning, from UE I think, which I find uber-powerful for druids...) but I don't recall anything from the Planar Handbook... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 15:35:15
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The section in question is at the back of the "monsters" section. I'd give you a page, but I'm at work right now. That's where they talk about taking off a creature from the summoning list if you add one with a template from the book. There is also a feat in the book that lets you add creatures to your summoning list without having to take existing creatures off your list.
I know what you are saying though. I didn't read that section for a long time, and when I did, it kind of surprised me, because I've never heard of a restricted summoning list being part of game balance before, and several creatures in the last few Monster Manuals have been called out as being "summonable" by certain Monster Summoning spells of the appropriate level, and not once to they mention that if you DO use them, they replace an existing creature on your list. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 01:20:01
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I'll take a look at it and come back to you.
Now, a question of my own: do summoned monsters come fully equipped with magical items or do they appear naked? This just came up in my campaign, and I ruled that they appear fully equipped with magical items (i.e. which are made easy to figure out thanks to the Magic Item Compendium - boom! one or two quick items per monster!); however, when the summon spell is over, I have also ruled that the items disappear with them, regardless of if the items were disarmed/grappled out of the creature, and regardless of dimensional anchors you applied to it.
What say you, noble sages? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 02:05:48
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I think if the "Standard" monster has a magic item generally, then, yes, it appears with a "phantom material plane" version of that magic item when it is summoned. So it can't remain, given that its made of the "summoning proto matter" that the creature is made from.
I always liked the comments in the DMG about giving your summoned creatures upgraded magic items in their "real world" so that they have phantom versions when you summon them. I like the idea of getting a kind of long term relationship with your summoned creatures.
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 10:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I'll take a look at it and come back to you.
Now, a question of my own: do summoned monsters come fully equipped with magical items or do they appear naked? This just came up in my campaign, and I ruled that they appear fully equipped with magical items (i.e. which are made easy to figure out thanks to the Magic Item Compendium - boom! one or two quick items per monster!); however, when the summon spell is over, I have also ruled that the items disappear with them, regardless of if the items were disarmed/grappled out of the creature, and regardless of dimensional anchors you applied to it.
What say you, noble sages?
Generally I think they appear with whatever the "normal" version of the creature would be equipped with, so if that includes magic items then they have some. There are some specific cases where creatures are specified as being equipped with certain items or not. on the Summon Nature's Ally list the Pixie can be summoned at different levels depending on whether it has special arrows or not.
And I certainly agree that the items should disappear when the summons runs out. If that's not the case then it's a really cheap way to obtain magic gear. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Summoning Spells and Balance
