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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 04:37:27
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Just wondering what some of you think of this particular idea I've been batting around. After reading the "State of the Dale" in the latest Dragon Magazine, an idea occurs for my campaign. With everything that is going on right now, I had a thought about what might happen in my Mistledale campaign.
In my campaign, Harsk Malorn had pushed for a mutual defence agreement between some of the nearby dales, and Ilmeth and Mourngrym had both agreed to the idea. Part of the reason this came about was due to the actions of the PCs, one of whom, as a follower of Helm, made a good impression on Ilmeth, and because the PCs as a group alerted Mourngrym to a plot by the Malaugrym at the Dales council meet on Shieldmeet (and they proved their worth by rescuing the Red Sword of Arkendale who had been replaced by a Malaugrym as well).
Now, I was looking at the current state of the Dales, and I though about how I could pull the PCs back into the political arena again, and give them something else to do besides just hunting Shadovar. I thought, what if Haresk decides he wants Cormyr's help?
I was thinking that Haresk might send the PCs to negotiate favorable taxes on all Cormyrean caravans through Mistledale for the next two Shieldmeets if Cormyr agrees to send Purple Dragon patrols farther east, as far as Ashabenford, so that the Mistledale Lancers and the Militia can concentrate on fortifying Glen, the Sharin Freehold, and the eastern points of the Dale.
(In my campaign, Cormyr was gunshy about getting involved in Heartlands politics and conflicts after Nalavara's army and the Tilverton incident, but Mistledale helped Arabel with shortages during the years of blight, selling them very cheap foodstuffs through the tough times. At this point, 1375 DR, Cormyr isn't quite "back to normal," but its in much better shape than it was at the end of 1372 DR, especially since the Dragon Rage didn't hit it quite as hard as the lands around it)
My roleplaying hook here will be that Cormyr's counter offer will be that Mistledale becomes an "independant" protectorate of the Forest Kingdom, and that Mistledale will be allowed to honor all of its agreements regarding the Dale Compact, and two Shieldmeet's hence, if Mistledale so chooses, they may withdraw as a protectorate of Cormyr.
The arguements will be that Shadowdale is weakened and unstable, the elves are besieged and not standing on their own feet yet, Sembia is in disarray, and Zhentil Keep is still a looming threat, especially through Hillsfar.
Now, after all of that, the PCs will get a chance to make their case either way, both to Myrmeen Lhal (who will be the Cormyrean representative, since she has dealt with the PCs before and the cleric if from Arabel), and to Haresk. In a lot of ways, if they are persuasive, I might let Myrmeen's offer from the Crown, and Haresk's response to be influenced by the PCs arguments.
So, my question is, what are the hidden land mines in this scenario? Are there issues that Cormyr might want to push? Any evidence that Haresk would dismiss this out of turn (although I've RPed Haresk a lot in this campaign, and from the way I've portrayed him, he is a proud Dalesmen, but he is primarily worried about his people, and might be tempted, especially since he sometimes worries about the lack of cohesion among his fellow Dale leaders).
Let me know how you would tweak this, how you might play this out, etc. And thanks for your time!
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 05:13:42
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I'm not privy to the current goings-on in the Dalelands (that is, the official stance of Cormyr as of the upcoming Shadowdale module-book), but as the resident 'Cormyr guy,' I have to say that the odds of an agreement like this are somewhat low.
Since the death of Azoun IV, Alusair has adopted a very strong Cormyr-first policy. While they would likely offer aid if, say, Darkhold conquers Hluthvar or Shadowdale is overrun by Zhent or drow forces (and the PCs in your campaign fail to deal with the threat), they aren't in the "protectorate" business any more.
The war with Nalavara, the destruction of Tilverton (and the loss of the forces that had gathered there) and increasing fork-poking by Sembia have made Alusair increasingly reluctant to commit Cormyrean forces to anything other than the direct defense of Cormyr--partly because the people are tired of seeing so many good men die over the last fifteen years. There's also that little mess called Scardale from a while back.
Cormyreans will go to war (some gladly, others grimly, but most willingly) to protect Cormyr, but extra patrols to defend foreign lands--which mean that Cormyrean villages and borders are less securely defended--is not something that anyone but some nobles and merchant houses will agree to, no matter how beneficial the terms of the agreement. What this agreement means to most Cormyreans (that is, those without a direct interest in slightly better prices for merchants that would never be passed along to the average citizen) is an increased cost to Cormyr in terms of administration, focus, and military commitments, even if there is never another attack within miles of Mistledale. The distance from Tilverton to Ashabenford along the Moonsea Ride is the same as the distance from Storm Horns to the Thunder Peaks along the High Road... the entire breadth of Cormyr. Tis a very long march to make in the name of better prices on goods.
All those concerns aside, if the looming threat of complete breakdown in the Dales is great enough that Cormyr is beginning to be worried, it can still work. You might consider the Crown commissioning the PCs to recruit from the local populace in order to accomplish the mission--if the party can account for the loss in manpower by way of volunteers and new recruits (you should make up whatever number you feel is appropriate here), then Alusair will grant a few swordcaptains, a lionar, and a pair of War Wizards to help supervise the task (here, I'm making up numbers). Two Shieldmeets would commit them until 1380, though (1376 being the first), but an intervening milestone--say, a year--would allow the PCs to leave the endeavor to another leader once things were established. The whole thing could pull in a number of elements from the "Taming the Frontier" and "King of the Road" chapters of Power of Faerūn.
Best of luck! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 05:29:42
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Thanks for the input Garen . . . you know, oddly enough, I thought about how Mistledale had helped out Cormyr, and how the PCs broke a goblin blockade of the Moonsea Ride earlier in the campaign, but until you pointed it out, I hadn't really thought about how expensive a lengthened supply line from Cormyr to Ashabenford would be, and from time to time I have a hard time keeping myself in the "Tilverton is gone" mindset (PCs spent a bit of time there, especially at the Altar of Shields, before it "went away").
Recruiting from within is a good idea too. I'll have to think about this one, especially since I already established that one of the cleric's sister is a War Wizard apprentice and his brother is a squire to a Huntsilver, and his father is a farmer that is a retired Purple Dragon himself, so he has some networking going for him in that case, IF the PCs think that this is the route to go.
Hm . . . I wonder how likely it would be that a local noble might make an offer like this, offering private troops, "in the name of the Crown," without any real authority? That might make for an interesting hiccup, when the troops from Cormyr don't act in an upright manner while in Mistledale, or when the crown finds out about the "offer."
Thanks for the ideas.
Edit: Upon thinking about it, even if a noble was in a position to offer a significant number of troops "on behalf" of Cormyr, Haresk wouldn't likely trust a random noble. My previous theory had to do more with the fact that Myrmeen helped out with a Shadovar/Krinth attack at Pelden's Helm. Other Cormyreans would likely throw up red flags.
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 29 Mar 2007 05:41:35 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 05:40:54
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The "networking" angle has a number of advantages:
-Since the PCs are running the whole thing, it's (technically) their responsibility for finding both men and the means of paying and feeding them. Officially, Cormyr would just be sending War Wizards and officers to help coordinate (and, unofficially, to ensure they aren't forming a private army that might later threaten Cormyr).
-It keeps the PCs involved in the story for longer than the negotiations, and you can use the newly formed garrison for any number of adventuring jump-off points.
-You can introduce all sorts of plot twists, like the noble you mentioned (who's willing to provide the funding the PCs need, but has certain "considerations" that would need to be looked after).
-It doesn't deplete the coffers or armies of Cormyr proper, which will make Alusair more amenable to the plan.
There's nothing keeping a noble from offering mercenaries to help in the effort, or the pay to fund them, but that's just going to make the Purple Dragon officers ornery and the War Wizards more suspicious of the group--and if this mission is to have any sanction at all from Cormyr, there will be Purple Dragon officers and War Wizards (because that's how Cormyr does things). |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 13:25:04
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| man I need a copy of that Dragon... |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 14:12:25
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Well what about having an agreement with Cormyr to train some of the Dalesmen with the Purple Dragons in exchange for vitally needed supplies or any other valid reason.
Possible reasons for both tp do this is the threat of the Zhents under Fzoul. Cormyr might also do this is a requirement of having them come to their aid in times of woe or oath/time of service.
This is just an idea, the experts still would need to weigh in. I was thinking of the Sammies of Discworld.
Opinions? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 14:40:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Since the death of Azoun IV, Alusair has adopted a very strong Cormyr-first policy.
Sounds a bit like the situation in Impiltur during the regency?
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There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 18:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
While they would likely offer aid if, say, Darkhold conquers Hluthvar or Shadowdale is overrun by Zhent or drow forces
I feel I should point out that, according to the article in the most recent issue of Dragon, this is exactly what has happened. Shadowdale was overrun by Zhent forces and has been declared a protectorate of Zhentil Keep.
I've posted a bit about what the article says and doesn't say in a thread in the Sages of Realmslore forum here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9142
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 22:38:44
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Now, THAT gives me some ideas on my campaign, if I really wanted all hell to break loose and to tear the party up over their choices. If the Zhent's took Hluthvar from Darkhold, one of the PCs, a Mir Tunlar barbarian, might be worried about his own homeland, on top of everything happening in the dales . . . hm . . .
At any rate, some thoughts here. In my campaign, I "accidentally" advanced the timeline to 1375 DR, even though I usually keep my timeline in the past so I can see things coming down the pike at me. So, I'm "on the fly" ruling that Shadowdale has broken free of the Zhents, but that they don't have much in the way of a deterant to keep the Zhents from coming back, other than the Zhents being busy with the elves trying to keep the Moonsea Ride free and clear. Thus, while Shadowdale, at this point, isn't still under Zhent control, its not stable enough to reassure Haresk in Mistledale.
I like the idea of the Cormyrean contribution being mainly a sanction and Purple Dragon Officers and War Wizards. And I think I may run with the noble offering the funding for this endevor as well, perhaps minus professional mercenaries (which I might replace with an "elite" guard to aid in the defence of Mistledale, an adventuring company loyal to him that is a bit problematic at times).
I'm thinking of tying this noble in as someone that might have had business dealings with Haresk in his youth, and, even more deviously, with the party rogue/druid, who was arrested and publicly embarrased in Eveningstar back in his larcenous days when he was still a common thief.
The player of that character might want to kill me though, given that I've already got plans for some interesting family reuninions given that he chose the unfortunate last name of Greycastle for his character . . .
Thanks again for all the ideas everyone, and if you have any more, feel free to throw them out there. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 22:40:42
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quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin
I feel I should point out that, according to the article in the most recent issue of Dragon, this is exactly what has happened. Shadowdale was overrun by Zhent forces and has been declared a protectorate of Zhentil Keep.
Yes, but no one's had the chance to respond to that crisis yet. The events of Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, at least according to the copy text, are all about how the invaders are dealt with by adventurers. If they fail, Cormyr would certainly have an interest (however small) in protecting the other Dales or ejecting Zhentil Keep, but in practice, I think pre-empting further actions of the Zhentarim (and, in a gaming sense, the sequence of events in the adventure) isn't the way Cormyr would go. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2007 : 23:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin
I feel I should point out that, according to the article in the most recent issue of Dragon, this is exactly what has happened. Shadowdale was overrun by Zhent forces and has been declared a protectorate of Zhentil Keep.
Yes, but no one's had the chance to respond to that crisis yet. The events of Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, at least according to the copy text, are all about how the invaders are dealt with by adventurers. If they fail, Cormyr would certainly have an interest (however small) in protecting the other Dales or ejecting Zhentil Keep, but in practice, I think pre-empting further actions of the Zhentarim (and, in a gaming sense, the sequence of events in the adventure) isn't the way Cormyr would go.
I really wonder how far this module will go in liberating the Dales. It is a VERY rare module indeed that determines the path of an RSE in the absence of an accompanying novel. I'm all for it, by the way.
I tend to believe that Shadowdale will be liberated, but since the module doesn't really happen until 1375, Knight's campaign should be okay, I think. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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turox
Learned Scribe
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 00:02:21
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I really wonder how far this module will go in liberating the Dales. It is a VERY rare module indeed that determines the path of an RSE in the absence of an accompanying novel. I'm all for it, by the way.
Not sure but either on the boards here or WOTC's it was said that Paul Kemps trilogy (which I haven't read yet, because not all of them are out yet.) was closely tied or very simaliar to these adventures. I don't know if this is true or not but thought I would put it out there in case it was. |
Turox Antas Dragonslayer -
"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."
Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).
Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. Peoples heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 05:14:40
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quote:
Originally posted by turox
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I really wonder how far this module will go in liberating the Dales. It is a VERY rare module indeed that determines the path of an RSE in the absence of an accompanying novel. I'm all for it, by the way.
Not sure but either on the boards here or WOTC's it was said that Paul Kemps trilogy (which I haven't read yet, because not all of them are out yet.) was closely tied or very simaliar to these adventures. I don't know if this is true or not but thought I would put it out there in case it was.
I beleive what he said was that there is some reference to the events of the adventures in his novels, but they aren't exactly closely tied together. |
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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 16:53:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin
I feel I should point out that, according to the article in the most recent issue of Dragon, this is exactly what has happened. Shadowdale was overrun by Zhent forces and has been declared a protectorate of Zhentil Keep.
Yes, but no one's had the chance to respond to that crisis yet. The events of Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, at least according to the copy text, are all about how the invaders are dealt with by adventurers. If they fail, Cormyr would certainly have an interest (however small) in protecting the other Dales or ejecting Zhentil Keep, but in practice, I think pre-empting further actions of the Zhentarim (and, in a gaming sense, the sequence of events in the adventure) isn't the way Cormyr would go.
Let's not forget that Cormyr isn't operating with perfect knowledge. What they're going to know is that the Zhents managed to overrun Shadowdale and are reported to be marching on Mistledale. They don't know if or when a rebellion will happen or if or when it will be successful. They pretty much have to operate on that information.
I expect Cormyr will want to act. As I see it, they've been eying the dales for quite some time just like Sembia and the Zhents, but none has been willing to act for fear of setting off a general regional war in the resulting scramble (and, prior to the retreat, for fear of war with the elves). Now that the other two are acting, I expect Cormyr is going to want their piece of the pie -- if for no other reason then because they're afraid that Sembia and/or Zhentil Keep will gain a long term advantage if they succeed in absorbing a dale or three. They may not be able to act militarily, but that doesn't rule out several other courses of action.
1. They can provide weapons and funding to the dales.
2. They can provide "advisors" to train dalesmen.
3. They must have adventurers loyal to Cormyr who would be willing to go fight for Cormyr's interests in the dales.
4. They have spies and agents who can provide covert aid to those resisting Sembia and Zhentil Keep both by passing on information and by sabotage.
5. They have diplomacy. They may be forced to accept Sembian/Zhentish domination of dales they've already taken, but they can still make dilomatic overtures to remaining dales, like Deepingdale or the High Dale, to bring them further into their orbit and perhaps even become protectorates. While these dales might be reluctant to do so under normal circumstances, they may feel it beneficial to gain protection from a larger power now that Shadowdale has fallen, Mistledale is threatened, Battledale has been occupied and Featherdale and Tassledale may have been occupied (we don't know for sure). Cormyr may not be able to engage in a war for the already conquered dales, but may judge that the Zhents/Sembians may be similarly unwilling (and occupied fighting elsewhere) to get into a war with Cormyr over a dale or two that becomes a Cormyrian protectorate -- thus making the risk acceptable.
I think Cormyr will act, but it won't be by sending the Purple Dragons to kick Zhentil Keep out of Shadowdale.
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 19:33:12
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I think that Alusair would be keen on the idea of leading forces, but I also think that it will take time to consolidate a consensus.
What I think will happen (and will provide circumstantial evidence for) is that Alusair will dispatch chartered Cormyrian adventurers to the daleslands on a dual purpose: 1)Gather intelligence for the state; 2)Set up a daleslander insurgency friendly to Cormyrian intervention.
My circumstantial evidence revolves around the sequence of the modules. We know that the liberation of Shadowdale from these forces is the bulk of the second module. We also know that the first module ends with the adventurers having succesfully turned aside a Sharran plot in Cormyr. Alusair sending loyal and succesful adventurers to assist her daleland allies seems to be the easiest way to segue from one module to the other. While the adventurers are slugging it out in Cormyr, Alusair is gaining a consensus, engaging in propaganda, and readying her forces. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 20:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I think that Alusair would be keen on the idea of leading forces, but I also think that it will take time to consolidate a consensus.
What I think will happen (and will provide circumstantial evidence for) is that Alusair will dispatch chartered Cormyrian adventurers to the daleslands on a dual purpose: 1)Gather intelligence for the state; 2)Set up a daleslander insurgency friendly to Cormyrian intervention.
My circumstantial evidence revolves around the sequence of the modules. We know that the liberation of Shadowdale from these forces is the bulk of the second module. We also know that the first module ends with the adventurers having succesfully turned aside a Sharran plot in Cormyr. Alusair sending loyal and succesful adventurers to assist her daleland allies seems to be the easiest way to segue from one module to the other. While the adventurers are slugging it out in Cormyr, Alusair is gaining a consensus, engaging in propaganda, and readying her forces.
That sounds like a very good approach to me.
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 22:02:15
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Let me expand on my thought a bit:
This may seem a bit calous and calculating for Alusair but...
The native population will be more favorably disposed to Cormyrian liberators than Cormyrian defenders. At least from an annexation standpoint. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 23:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
Let me expand on my thought a bit:
This may seem a bit calous and calculating for Alusair but...
The native population will be more favorably disposed to Cormyrian liberators than Cormyrian defenders. At least from an annexation standpoint.
Indubitably. From what I've been able to tell, Cormyr has wanted to annex the dales for a long time and views the dalesmen as people who would make "good Cormyrian subjects". This provides an opportunity to get their hands on a dale or two while appearing good and noble at the same time. I expect any dale that receives significant help from Cormyr will find it rather difficult to get the helpers to leave once the problem is resolved.
It strikes me as absolutely in character for Cormyr. I expect more than one dalesman will think long and hard about Tilverton before accepting Cormyrian help.
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Politics Between Cormyr/Mistledale (Opinions)
