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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jul 2007 : 21:59:15
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After reading through a few threads about people wanting to play level adjusted characters on various web sites, and how the LA isn't usually a big deal long term, but at the same time, it just doesn't "feel right" to hand wave the level adjustment and let some races start out better than others, I thought of something.
There are several feats that give some of the bonuses of various races to humans or what have you, that essentially give the person taking the feat the "good" part of having that race. Similarly, we've had the discussion here that the non-level adjusted planetouched can be constructed using the "Otherworldly" feat.
So it occurred to me . . . what if you allowed a person to play a LA +1 race if they took a character flaw? Character flaws normally can be taken to grant an extra feat, but what if you allowed it to "buy off" the LA?
Now, this formula really only works for a LA +1 race, as by the time a race gets into LA +2 territory, it seems to start picking up more abilities than an extra feat would be the equivalent to, not to mention I have often seen that even though the alternate rule that allows for flaws allows for up to two flaws, characters that take flaws that really affect them start looking rather crippled and overly specialized after two flaws are introduced.
At any rate, does this make sense to anyone?
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 03:13:32
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Yes AND no.
I love flaws, but prefer to RP them rather than reap a mechanical bennie out of it.
As to your idea:
The system would work, but the person should NOT choose their flaw. You have to stress this, as it should be something that would affect the character in a mechanical fashion at least ONCE in the course of an adventure. The advantage of this means you have a hand in character creation, and the players see your line of thinking.
2 Examples:
Think of a greatsword wielding Earth Genasi fighter, who, although very stable on his feet, is a terrible archer (shaky hands -4 to ranged attacks). Thematically strange, but okay when you realize that archery deals with air, earth's opposition element.
An aasimar rogue who is the face of the party, his outsider heritage means that he has a hard time lying in social situations, granting him a -4 penalty to bluff checks in social situations only, not penalizing combat bluffs, which are okay.
NOW, for LA+2 or more creatures:
Depending on whether the creature has a hit die or not (thus a "monster class"), will determine your course of action. I wouldn't go the flaw route, except in conjunction with an XP EL payoff penalty. Make it such that the ECL 2 creature is below level 2 when the other PC's make it, but falls further behind by level 3, and by level 5 is just hitting that level 3. At that point, the Player can "pay off" the EL and become on par with the other players by level 12-15.
Over LA +2 are concepts rather than characters. A LA 3 Deep gnome is worthless in a mechanical sense only. I'd love to play one, but I realize as a player that the character will not be the star of the party.
Something should be done about LA races, but I'm not sure the +2 or more can be fixed easily.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12022 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 18:50:37
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| I'm a strong opponent to the flaw system. Sure, it can be written that they can be a hindrance. Then you have people who start bringing in alternate flaws (saw a lot of this in dragon magazine), and if you min/max some of those they end up not really affecting certain character builds. The problem becomes you've got to be really careful making flaws, enough that even I don't think I can see all the possible consequences. In the end its easier to leave them out and if someone wants a flaw, let them roleplay it out and/or setup the rules with the DM, but don't give an open-ended feat (i.e. you choose to have a flaw that you have problems reading... so the DM gives a ruling that you learned to compensate for this by asking questions, and gives you a bonus on gather information) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 21:00:20
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That is a really good point. I was thinking of allowing flaws, but even though I didn't have a problem with them, I couldn't quite put my finger on what bothered me about them.
I think now that I'll be having the players describe the character to me if they want to have a flaw, and I'll look over their history, and THEN I'll pick the flaw that I'll assign to them. That way it will fit in with my DM style and thematically with the character.
Its not a matter of not trusting the players but at the same time, sometimes players can either make the character feel like an overspecialized walking problem, or on the other hand, they can come up with a good reason in character for the flaw, but the flaw, as the character is concieved, will almost never be a problem.
I would allow "buy down" of the LA, as I have before. I've also been thinking, since I'm toying with allowing "retraining" from the PH II (along with a cost and training time), that I might allow, if the character has a good in game reason for it, allowing to "retrain" flaws by using feat slots gained at higher levels. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 06 Jul 2007 21:56:18 |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 23:05:02
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I'd say no: if they play a high LA race, they pay the price! 
NOTE: the PGtoF presents a way to deal with LA... just give them -1, -2 or -3 to all d20 rolls at first level, until they have gained (respectively) 1000 XP (LA +1), 3000 XP (LA +2) or 6000 XP (LA +3), at which point they are considered "regular 1st level characters" without the -1 to all rolls.
Sorry, I'm a stickler for the rules... I've toyed with "buy back LA" feats before and it didn't turn out well... |
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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 05:01:22
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This is an interesting thread to me, as I find myself constantly wanting to play LA races (or, more to the point, use them as NPCs), but basically get crippled by the LA itself.
The tiefling, for instance--I just don't think of darkness 1/day, some energy resistances, and an extra +2 to an ability score as the equal of an entire LEVEL (or, as a DM, an entire tier of experience). And it's shifty anyway as compared to the elf, who has all kinds of little extras, including weapon proficiencies, immunity to types of magic, resistances. [Sigh. Oh well.]
In my campaigns, though, I often find that players want to run tieflings and aasimar and the like more for roleplaying than for power-gaming. They're fascinated by the conflicted heritage of the tiefling or enjoy having a touch of the angelic about their characters.
We also make great use of the "lesser planetouched" rules in--what is it? PGtF or RoF. Taking away the outsider (native) and replacing it with humanoid (planetouched). Not only does this do away with the LA dilemma, but it also generally makes adjudicating spell effects easier. |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 21:45:47
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| I personally have used the 'LA Buyoff' in Unearthed Arcana to great effect, as have a few of my players. Have the rest of you used this in your own campaigns also, or do you merely take the XP hit all the way to 20? |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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An Idea For Level Adjusted Races
