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Thane of Fife
Acolyte
5 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 00:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's why I lean towards my idea that it's all PR and that the world the primordials came from is somewhere else (maybe not even on the Prime) entirely.
I'm not really up on the 5e lore, but isn't that the original 4e canon - Ao created the material universe and the primordials and gods came from outside to fight over it? That's how the 4e campaign guide reads to me, at least. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 02:24:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Thane of Fife
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's why I lean towards my idea that it's all PR and that the world the primordials came from is somewhere else (maybe not even on the Prime) entirely.
I'm not really up on the 5e lore, but isn't that the original 4e canon - Ao created the material universe and the primordials and gods came from outside to fight over it? That's how the 4e campaign guide reads to me, at least.
I'm looking specifically at the part that has them both on Abeir-Toril, fighting for it, and so Ao split Abeir off into its own, slightly out of phase but still in the same basic place world so that the primordials could have it.
My spin is that the primordials were from someplace else entirely, maybe not even on the Prime. The gods were on Abeir-Toril first, and then the primordials came along, deciding they liked this world better than their existing home. They failed to beat the gods, though, and were kicked back to where they came from. Later on, they came back trying again, and to try to swing mortals (and the all-important power of their belief) their way, the primordials (through the followers they already had) spread the story about having already been on Abeir-Toril until Ao let them have their own place.
In other words, they were always interlopers and the here-but-not-quite-here Abeir didn't exist.
It is my opinion that this avoids a lot of the issues caused by the 4E team's retcons. It keeps the basics of their lore -- primordials, a war, another place that somehow merged with the Realms -- but avoids the breaking of prior lore their version required, and also makes more sense. Obviously, YMMV. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 02:39:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Gargauth used to be availlable for this but he was only a Demigod and in the shield. Now we have an evil god of wealth, style, and taste to do subtle manipulations behind the scenes. Talos was used this way in the second Moonshae Trilogy btu he's not like that...at all.
Just to note, Gargauth wasn't IN the shield prior to 5e. He was speaking through a magic item. They made him get "entrapped" as part of a means to bring him back it seems.
There's still a half of him roaming around, right? Or did they take that one? Didn't he split apart in.. Priapurl? |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
503 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 02:50:00
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I like this a lot. Primordials are another piece that I have wanted to fit but had trouble wrapping my head around. Istead of desiring to steal Toril, maybe they were fleeing something. Instead of alternate Prime maybe they were gods of an alternate multiverse and they fled it's collapse or better yet it consumption by the Far Realm, that brings in another puzzle piece that I've been trying to fit.
This could explain why they were so powerful but couldn't win in this cosmology. The godly rules were different so though they had some amount of pure power they lacked the ability to function like gods native to this cosmos.
How would you explain the Second Sundering? Would Ao still be involved? |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 04:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I like this a lot. Primordials are another piece that I have wanted to fit but had trouble wrapping my head around. Istead of desiring to steal Toril, maybe they were fleeing something. Instead of alternate Prime maybe they were gods of an alternate multiverse and they fled it's collapse or better yet it consumption by the Far Realm, that brings in another puzzle piece that I've been trying to fit.
This could explain why they were so powerful but couldn't win in this cosmology. The godly rules were different so though they had some amount of pure power they lacked the ability to function like gods native to this cosmos.
How would you explain the Second Sundering? Would Ao still be involved?
The initial Spellplague would have been when their invasion began. Ao's kinda tricky to explain, but I figure maybe he was letting the gods fight so that they'd better appreciate Toril and want to be more attentive to their duties. Or maybe he needed them to fight for a while so he could do what he needed to do to kick the primordials out.
It could have even been that Ao was occupied dealing with the overpower of the primordials, so the gods had to go it alone.
Either way, the Second Sundering was when the gods won and turned their attention back to the world and started actively trying to undo the damage. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 05:37:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I wanted to chime in an say I am enjoying this scroll. I don't have much to add since I have been trying to work out just how the multiverse works in my home Realms. It all started with figuring out how souls interact with the afterlife, then I ended up on a tangent looking into truly ancient species, which led me to wondering just when the creation of Toril occurred and when the War of Light and Dark happened relative to other cosmic events. Ideally I would like to stick to as much lore as possible, this includes not ruling out Planescape material. I know "godly events are outside time", but sometimes that just isn't enough for me. Like when Toril came into being was the Blood War already old? How far back in time did the Illithid Empire send ships? Where do Aboleths, Spell Weavers, and the Juna fall? It quickly turns into a tangled ball of wires but all part of the fun.
Anyway, Ed did a few articles on the Nine Hells in Dragon 75 p.16 and Dragon 76 p.22 and Dragon 91 p. 18. There is a bit of info on how Bane specifically interacts with Devils. Maybe those would be helpful to people here.
Since you're having fun I'll say what someone on youtube described- a bit of a hot take. As I recall it went a bit like this.
The creatures of Carcerai, spawned by one of the original Yugoloth's own creative process, each individually (as there are a limited number that this being created) hold beside them a geometric object linked to their life force and power. They share these with mortals when interacting. The Batrachi have many extremely ancient structures scattered across Toril. They have a connection to the primordial and intrinsically chaotic/alien powers that the Dead Three encountered as mortals guided by a unique Spellweaver Ascendant. Many of the oldest structures on land and beneath the sea bear the signature 'crystaline' structures of the Batrachi. Objects and locales so alien as to be thought of as Spellweaver may in-fact be Batrachi and may be points of interest wrought with the signature stain of the Gehreleths (also associated with the Supreme Throne and thus another link to the Batrachi).
Something like that- and I just found that the shape was a Triangle. A bit of a stretch to call anything geometric a triangle because, well, that's kind of unavoidable.
Buuuut there is that Spellweaver/Batrachi overlap with the "ancient powered superstructure" theme in the Monument of the Ancients.
I like the wild claims.  Especially with Jergal a couple tangents away at all times.
Edit: Oh! As for aboleths.. If you Search for the name of a specific disgusting Neogi or Mind Flayer God you'll find a thread here discussing the story of the gigantic living Ur-Spelljammer struck by a time-displaced planetoid and the different gross body parts falling to toril and becoming gods of the lesser beings spawned from the flesh-mess and the elemental fuel-rod cells which would later become DRAGON EGGS from H'Catha that were onboard as cargo.
That thread was wild. |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 04 Jun 2022 05:40:46 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 07:24:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yep, could have been many things. Could have been the atmosphere getting clouded over by debris. I'm just throwing out ideas to see what sounds like a good twist, and I've thrown out several revolving around the creation of Coliar recently (and purposes of various planets). I do know that the sudden creation of a new "out of phase" world isn't something I'm very fond of, which it seems like you aren't either.
I can't stand the idea, honestly; I think it creates way too many problems. That's why I lean towards my idea that it's all PR and that the world the primordials came from is somewhere else (maybe not even on the Prime) entirely. I'm also thinking that world may not have been their homeworld, and that there was one or more shattered worlds left in their wake. Maybe something about the primordials has a destabilizing effect that eventually drains or even destroys worlds. Or maybe there's something behind the primordials that even they fear, so they have to flee from it periodically.
I can agree on that as well (that sticking to the 4e canon that the world "shares the same sun and moon" creates a lot of hoops to work through). You know me though, always trying to plug ways to keep things "true" while "making it different".
As you say that idea of the Primordials fleeing from somewhere else though, it occurs to me that we MIGHT be able to actually make a truism. What if the "path" that drew the Primordials to realmspace physically was the "lighting of the sun".... or to rephrase that "the opening of the many portals to the fire elemental plane on the celestial body that becomes the sun". This would fit with them being so elementally focused.
In doing this, if another crystal sphere also had a "sun" that was actually portals to this same place on the elemental plane of fire... then it might be said that they "share the same sun". Also, given that the "moon" is also technically tied to a goddess (i.e. Selune), if that goddess is actually multispheric with ties to that other crystal sphere controlling a moon there... it might be considered "the same moon". I know that's semantic BS to a degree... but it might be an interesting twist. Maybe if Selune herself is a primordial like entity who was actually originally birthed in the plane of radiance, and thus the "stars" that are nothing more than portals to the plane of radiance were her own original path into the crystal sphere.
To add to this, IF the abyss was actually birthed from the elemental chaos, as has been intimated.... then SOMEHOW.... the lighting of the sun by outer planar entities might be linked to the creation of the version of the abyss that's tied to realmspace (because there may be multiple "copies" of the abyss in theory... i.e. demon lords dying in one world doesn't mean they die everywhere). That might be a lot harder to create as well... and I'd probably throw that out.... but noodling on it for now. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Thane of Fife
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 11:57:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm looking specifically at the part that has them both on Abeir-Toril, fighting for it, and so Ao split Abeir off into its own, slightly out of phase but still in the same basic place world so that the primordials could have it.
My spin is that the primordials were from someplace else entirely, maybe not even on the Prime. The gods were on Abeir-Toril first, and then the primordials came along, deciding they liked this world better than their existing home. They failed to beat the gods, though, and were kicked back to where they came from. Later on, they came back trying again, and to try to swing mortals (and the all-important power of their belief) their way, the primordials (through the followers they already had) spread the story about having already been on Abeir-Toril until Ao let them have their own place.
In other words, they were always interlopers and the here-but-not-quite-here Abeir didn't exist.
It is my opinion that this avoids a lot of the issues caused by the 4E team's retcons. It keeps the basics of their lore -- primordials, a war, another place that somehow merged with the Realms -- but avoids the breaking of prior lore their version required, and also makes more sense. Obviously, YMMV.
I guess I don't see the part where they were ever from Toril. My reading of the 4e campaign guide is:
-Ao creates the universe.
-The primordials come from outside.
-The gods are either created from the residue of creation or come from outside.
-The gods and primordials fight over the world. Their fighting is so intense that it pretty much scours Toril clean of life.
-The gods win and the primordials are sealed away.
-Life returns.
-Eventually, the batrachi are fighting the titans and decide to free some of the primordials.
-The gods come back for Round 2.
-Ao decides to saw the baby in half and give one world each to the gods and primordials rather than risk Toril being scoured clean again.
I'm not trying to tell you you should stick to the 4e lore or anything like that. I just feel like what you're describing goes through some unnecessary hoops. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 15:36:19
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It doesn't matter where they came from. My thing is that the gods are here first, they're established, they're doing their thing, and then the primordials try to take it from them.
Honestly, the whole thing of Ao making a world for the primordials makes no sense. He's rewarding them for their actions. And if the goal was to protect Abeir-Toril, he could have blocked the primordials from accessing it -- or from accessing Realmspace entirely. You don't keep someone from breaking into your house by giving them the house next door.
Also, why "twin" the world and then set it out of phase when you have an entire solar system to choose from? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 16:51:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't matter where they came from. My thing is that the gods are here first, they're established, they're doing their thing, and then the primordials try to take it from them.
Honestly, the whole thing of Ao making a world for the primordials makes no sense. He's rewarding them for their actions. And if the goal was to protect Abeir-Toril, he could have blocked the primordials from accessing it -- or from accessing Realmspace entirely. You don't keep someone from breaking into your house by giving them the house next door.
Also, why "twin" the world and then set it out of phase when you have an entire solar system to choose from?
I always go back to the concept that Ao is powerful, but NOT that powerful. That's why I hate the idea of twinning a world at the drop of a hat. I do like the idea of the primordials being invaders as well though. Basically, the interior of a crystal sphere is SEPARATE from the elemental planes, so I prefer the idea that SOME type of being(s) OR natural action that is/are extremely powerful STEALS energy from the elemental planes to make their own little "universe" and then "ties" it to the outer planes as well.
So, in that scenario... rather than it being like the titans of greek myth, or of Skarn, etc... your idea of the primordials being interlopers makes sense. However, making Abeir something of a prison plane like Carceri / Tarterus in the outer planes OR making Abeir actually in the spirit world makes sense to me. If the spirit world were then "cut off" from Faerun as a last ditch effort by Ao to keep the primordials out, and LATER somehow it starts to resynch in areas like Kara-Tur.... maybe as a result of actions of the fey (because maybe the feywild and spirit world have links to each other).
I should also note that while a lot of people believe primordials should only be "born" from the natural elemental chaos of the universe.... I actually think it's not a bad idea if "beings" can "ascend" to being a primordial just like they can become a god. It might be consider just another "feat" like Eric once described being given to gods. That would then explain Bazim-Gorag, a former batrachi, suddenly becoming a primordial. In fact, the batrachi that released the primordials might have been jealous of Bazim-Gorag becoming a primordial and been seeking a way to become one himself.
On that concept too (Bazim-Gorag becoming a primordial being), it might be interesting if the "slaad lords" are actually just another kind of primordial... and maybe the slaad are former batrachi... and PERHAPS there was no plane of limbo BEFORE the batrachi. If you look at Limbo, its almost like the elemental chaos, and so maybe they were attempting some very powerful effect to steal elemental energy and instead created an outer plane. Also, if you look at slaad, a lot of them have powers related to fire.... putting some ties between them, Bazim-Gorag, the batrachi, and firenewts could make a decent story. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 18:49:10
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That's possible - that, or how (I wrote about it some time ago) "primordial" is an exonym ( which still fits with your theory) or a polyphyletic grouping.
In Nerath, Io/Asgoroth was a god (despite being strongly connected to elemental planes), but in Realmspace is classified as Primordial. On Nerath Io standed with gods, but in the Realms, he was on the Primordials side.
Ramenos, and the first Primus in his previous state (as the Prime Architect) are classified as Primordials. While Ramenos is a World Serpent fragment, with the World Serpent being counted as a Primal Spirit.
Annam was stated to be the father of at least part of Primordials, though his latter children aren't counted as such.
A argument against it, is the 4 Elemental Lords and Ubtao are counted as Primordials, despite Ubtao explicitly betrayed other Primordials.
But it could be due to Ubtao joining the side of future gods latter, and the Elemental Lords being more neutral, or that they retained, or at least more of their primordial nature. |
Edited by - Baltas on 04 Jun 2022 19:49:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2022 : 23:32:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Has anybody thought perhaps the bit about gods fighting primordial was a bit of historic rewriting by the victors.
I'm not big on the 4e 5e lore but I'm guessing this whole war between gods and primordial took place a long, long time ago.
My question is who was worshipping the gods at this time. If it was before the aearee and batrachi and sarrukh then what was left. Were humans even around at this time.
If the answer is that there were no intelligent mortal beings, then there can be no gods because Ed has said that the power of the gods has always been directly linked to belief aka worship.
So what if these "gods" in the beginning of time were primordial but a different group or faction than the ones they fought. After the war was over, when sarrukh etc appeared, the story of this dawn war was told but the gods neglected to include the information that they were once primordial too, assumption did the rest.
Just a thought.
What I was putting forth is pretty much that MOST gods and primordials are probably some kind of ascended being. The difference between god and primordial in my view is just a different type of "power" gained and maybe what kind of source there is for that power. Some beings may be born with their power.
I'd also throw out there that the "god feat" isn't the whole sum of what empowers a god and keeps them alive, but rather they take on the ability to draw power from worshippers and that empowers their "god form". What do I mean by that? It kind of sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo, but the gist would be... a "god" loses worship and their "body" becomes a stone in the astral. But, I don't believe that ENDS the god. It separates their sentience from the stone body and draws it to another place (the place where vestiges reside perhaps). In essence, "gods" may be beings whose sentience resides in a place that we can't comprehend or visit, and they create a magical "drone" body to interact with this universe (their avatar).
So, THAT might be the difference between god and primordial. One is a sentience elsewhere driving a magical "drone"/"avatar" that works as its method of interacting with this world. The other is bound to a physical body IN this world. Gods use belief to fuel their abilities in this world, and if that fuel dries up, then their drone body "goes dead". If someone can reempower that body, then the sentience can "come back to life".... just like someone recharging the batteries on a robot that's controlled via a wireless link to somewhere else.
In this same scenario, it would imply that when a mortal ascends to godhood, their intellect is drawn from their physical presence into another place. There may even be phases to this, such that we have some gods that are "primebound"..... they are very similar to primordials in that if their body and mind are still together and bound to a world. In this type of scenario though, if they die, I wouldn't expect their body to go to the astral. This might have been the state of many of the gods at the time of the dawn war.
Bringing this back to the original topic, archdemons (at least according to 4e lore) are in essence "corrupted primordials" who were affected by the shard of evil plunged into the abyss by Thasmudyan... a being locked away in another "place" and not allowed to interact with this universe. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Jun 2022 23:41:47 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2022 : 11:40:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Bringing this back to the original topic, archdemons (at least according to 4e lore) are in essence "corrupted primordials" who were affected by the shard of evil plunged into the abyss by Thasmudyan... a being locked away in another "place" and not allowed to interact with this universe.
Well it depends which archdemons. Yugoloth lords (and Yugoloths) both being counted as a type of demon in 4E were born by the full corruption of the Shard of Pure Evil plunged by Tharizdun into the Elemental Chaos. With Baernaloth either helping him, or being the very first beings born this way.
And while a large part of demon Lords was characterized as corrupted Primordials, there are some exceptions.
Juiblex himself was also born as the embodiment of the corruption of the Elemental Chaos.
Obyrith lords (or at least Dagon, Pazuzu, Obox-ob, Pale Night and possibly the Queen of Chaos - she might also be a corrupted Primordial) are from a previous multiverse they destroyed, and indeed created the Shard of Pure Evil.
Demogorgon was indeed described as a Primordial corrupted by the shard, possibly the first one. Though him being a Primordial also might connect to him being the spawn of Shothotugg (possibly Azathoth) and Prukal in Kopru mythology, especially that it does seem Primordials don;t have a single source/origin. |
Edited by - Baltas on 11 Jun 2022 19:07:36 |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2024 : 00:33:48
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You sort of hinted at a lot of stuff that when you say it all out like you did, especially the part about the primordials fleeing something and the idea of the "out of phase world" being more akin to a demiplane, could that "something" be Mak Thuum Ngatha?
It is already established that the nilshai that attacked the elves of the Sildëyuir and that these nilshai were worshiper's of Mak Thuum Ngatha who also fought with at least one previously mentioned primordial, the Prime Architect who becomes Primus.
Not sure if the Far Realm has been overdone or not, but everything in this scroll feels to me like it is developing a story along these lines. |
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Archdemons and Devils - what is their role?
