| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 14:37:15
This post might fall under the "Stupid Question Time" thread, but here goes:
I thought i remembered reading somewhere that there are only ~20 Balors in existence and that the tanar'ri in general sort of evolve into stronger tanar'ri as they get older. Is this true, and if so does this mean that a Mane could (feasibly) become a Balor one day? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 14:07:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Pah, you cower before your web filter. No guts no glory, go big or go home!
I strain every limitation of my workplace, my underlings and bosses and computers and tools all groan and stagger when I push them right to (or circumvent) the breaking point. I can get away with it, of course, because I'm utterly indispensable ... which alas means I cannot be fired, nor can I be promoted.
There's a fair number of us, and after spending a painfully long chunk of time unemployed, I prefer to play it safe. 
Yeah my job can really get in the way of reading and posting on here  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 13:25:55
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Pah, you cower before your web filter. No guts no glory, go big or go home!
I strain every limitation of my workplace, my underlings and bosses and computers and tools all groan and stagger when I push them right to (or circumvent) the breaking point. I can get away with it, of course, because I'm utterly indispensable ... which alas means I cannot be fired, nor can I be promoted.
There's a fair number of us, and after spending a painfully long chunk of time unemployed, I prefer to play it safe. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 08:29:01
Pah, you cower before your web filter. No guts no glory, go big or go home!
I strain every limitation of my workplace, my underlings and bosses and computers and tools all groan and stagger when I push them right to (or circumvent) the breaking point. I can get away with it, of course, because I'm utterly indispensable ... which alas means I cannot be fired, nor can I be promoted. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 05:15:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
See here:- http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/253860000
Yeah, I didn't want to Google that one at work. I wasn't going to see how our web filter would react to that title!  |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 04:35:36
The most comprehensive source on the topic would be 2e's "Faces of Evil: the Fiends" which has an awesome chart of the baatezu promotion scheme. It also has details of the yugoloth promotion route and process, and on the (multitude or lack of) tanar'ri promotion ladder.
A few fiends have been introduced since then (some of which are one offs never mentioned ever again, but a few others have gotten traction), and as far as tanar'ri go, the late 3.x Fiendish Codex I does a very, very good job on the topic.
I can't speak on 4e sources since it's for a completely different cosmology with different alignment structure, in-game history, lore etc.
I suppose I'm one of the folks to ask regarding such things in Pathfinder for daemons/yugoloths (the daemon book is out in a month). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 02:04:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
See here:- http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/253860000
|
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 00:10:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but i checked it out and it's a D&D book and Brian is one of the authors
I was not being sarcastic. I've not paid attention to much from WotC, of late.
It was a 4E book so i don't blame you |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 00:02:20
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but i checked it out and it's a D&D book and Brian is one of the authors
I was not being sarcastic. I've not paid attention to much from WotC, of late. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 22:13:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but i checked it out and it's a D&D book and Brian is one of the authors |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 21:58:53
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party? |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 20:46:03
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 20:19:04
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Yes. The change can be be completely random, and it doesn't have to happen at all; the balor can be "born" fully formed. But matters of sexual identity and gender are meaningless to demons, or to non-unique demons at any rate. Most have no gender to speak of, lacking parts as well as drive. Even inncubi (and pre-4e succubi) lack gender in the sense that they can be male or female, depending on what suits their mood or purpose.
Hmm I wonder what kind of event needs to occur for a Balor to be created like this. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 17:58:22
Yes. The change can be be completely random, and it doesn't have to happen at all; the balor can be "born" fully formed. But matters of sexual identity and gender are meaningless to demons, or to non-unique demons at any rate. Most have no gender to speak of, lacking parts as well as drive. Even inncubi (and pre-4e succubi) lack gender in the sense that they can be male or female, depending on what suits their mood or purpose. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 17:31:31
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Same thing, though where the tanar'ri advancement is generally based on luck and the strong grabbing the chance, the baatezu follow a rigid promotion heirarchy. Exactly what you have to do impress your superiors enough to get promoted is left vague, but it's very much like an extremely evil and strict military. A fiend has superiors and those superiors put it up for promotion. Instead of getting another bar or star, though, the baatezu gets a new and better form.
Hmmm, so every Balor was at one time a succubus or a marilith? Wonder how that screws with their sexual identity.
This brings up another question: Does a future-Balor have to be every single type of Tanar'ri over the course of their rise, or can they pass some forms by completely? Perhaps a glabrezu can transform into a Balor without becoming a Marilith first? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 17:03:12
Balors don't have sexual identities. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:59:08
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Same thing, though where the tanar'ri advancement is generally based on luck and the strong grabbing the chance, the baatezu follow a rigid promotion heirarchy. Exactly what you have to do impress your superiors enough to get promoted is left vague, but it's very much like an extremely evil and strict military. A fiend has superiors and those superiors put it up for promotion. Instead of getting another bar or star, though, the baatezu gets a new and better form.
Hmmm, so every Balor was at one time a succubus or a marilith? Wonder how that screws with their sexual identity. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:30:04
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
4e at least has changed this, though I believe it goes back to 3.5e. There are infinite balors ( everything in the abyss is infinite ) though only a dozen or so are known at any given time. Also, not all demons start at the bottom of the ladder and work their way up, though that's one way to go about it. The abyss can spit out a demon of any type at any time, bump a mane into a balor instantly, or the other way around, The abyss is fickle.
That just sounds sooooo chaotic  |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:28:38
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Same thing, though where the tanar'ri advancement is generally based on luck and the strong grabbing the chance, the baatezu follow a rigid promotion heirarchy. Exactly what you have to do impress your superiors enough to get promoted is left vague, but it's very much like an extremely evil and strict military. A fiend has superiors and those superiors put it up for promotion. Instead of getting another bar or star, though, the baatezu gets a new and better form.
Good stuff! I would love to see some novels covering this area. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:26:47
4e at least has changed this, though I believe it goes back to 3.5e. There are infinite balors ( everything in the abyss is infinite ) though only a dozen or so are known at any given time. Also, not all demons start at the bottom of the ladder and work their way up, though that's one way to go about it. The abyss can spit out a demon of any type at any time, bump a mane into a balor instantly, or the other way around, The abyss is fickle. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:09:09
Dicefreaks' The Gates of Hell is a pretty good 3rd part supplement that covers the advancement of devils, IIRC. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:54:32
Same thing, though where the tanar'ri advancement is generally based on luck and the strong grabbing the chance, the baatezu follow a rigid promotion heirarchy. Exactly what you have to do impress your superiors enough to get promoted is left vague, but it's very much like an extremely evil and strict military. A fiend has superiors and those superiors put it up for promotion. Instead of getting another bar or star, though, the baatezu gets a new and better form. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:53:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Yes.
Actually, I'll take it further: all balors were manes way back when.
And there are actually many more than 20 balors. That line from the MM was dismissed as prime wishful thinking in Planescape.
Awesome! I would imagine that this would take millenia to accomplish, but there is still hope for Nevron yet
When I read your OP, I was going to ask if it's Nevron's fate that prompted you to post your question. Seems like I don't have to. But if you'd ask me, I wouldn't rely on such hope. I would still maintain my theory that his contingencies had saved him.
Yes Nevron had a role in my curiosity, but also just reading about some tanar'ri in book 2 of the Double Diamond Triangle Saga |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:42:22
On the flip side: what is the power progession with Devils? Similar to the demons? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:35:08
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Yes.
Actually, I'll take it further: all balors were manes way back when.
And there are actually many more than 20 balors. That line from the MM was dismissed as prime wishful thinking in Planescape.
Awesome! I would imagine that this would take millenia to accomplish, but there is still hope for Nevron yet
When I read your OP, I was going to ask if it's Nevron's fate that prompted you to post your question. Seems like I don't have to. But if you'd ask me, I wouldn't rely on such hope. I would still maintain my theory that his contingencies had saved him. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:16:17
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Yes.
Actually, I'll take it further: all balors were manes way back when.
And there are actually many more than 20 balors. That line from the MM was dismissed as prime wishful thinking in Planescape.
Awesome! I would imagine that this would take millenia to accomplish, but there is still hope for Nevron yet |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:11:32
Yes.
Actually, I'll take it further: all balors were manes way back when.
And there are actually many more than 20 balors. That line from the MM was dismissed as prime wishful thinking in Planescape. |
