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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 14:37:15
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This post might fall under the "Stupid Question Time" thread, but here goes:
I thought i remembered reading somewhere that there are only ~20 Balors in existence and that the tanar'ri in general sort of evolve into stronger tanar'ri as they get older. Is this true, and if so does this mean that a Mane could (feasibly) become a Balor one day?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:11:32
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Yes.
Actually, I'll take it further: all balors were manes way back when.
And there are actually many more than 20 balors. That line from the MM was dismissed as prime wishful thinking in Planescape. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:16:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Yes.
Actually, I'll take it further: all balors were manes way back when.
And there are actually many more than 20 balors. That line from the MM was dismissed as prime wishful thinking in Planescape.
Awesome! I would imagine that this would take millenia to accomplish, but there is still hope for Nevron yet  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Yes.
Actually, I'll take it further: all balors were manes way back when.
And there are actually many more than 20 balors. That line from the MM was dismissed as prime wishful thinking in Planescape.
Awesome! I would imagine that this would take millenia to accomplish, but there is still hope for Nevron yet
When I read your OP, I was going to ask if it's Nevron's fate that prompted you to post your question. Seems like I don't have to. But if you'd ask me, I wouldn't rely on such hope. I would still maintain my theory that his contingencies had saved him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:42:22
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| On the flip side: what is the power progession with Devils? Similar to the demons? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Yes.
Actually, I'll take it further: all balors were manes way back when.
And there are actually many more than 20 balors. That line from the MM was dismissed as prime wishful thinking in Planescape.
Awesome! I would imagine that this would take millenia to accomplish, but there is still hope for Nevron yet
When I read your OP, I was going to ask if it's Nevron's fate that prompted you to post your question. Seems like I don't have to. But if you'd ask me, I wouldn't rely on such hope. I would still maintain my theory that his contingencies had saved him.
Yes Nevron had a role in my curiosity, but also just reading about some tanar'ri in book 2 of the Double Diamond Triangle Saga |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 15:54:32
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| Same thing, though where the tanar'ri advancement is generally based on luck and the strong grabbing the chance, the baatezu follow a rigid promotion heirarchy. Exactly what you have to do impress your superiors enough to get promoted is left vague, but it's very much like an extremely evil and strict military. A fiend has superiors and those superiors put it up for promotion. Instead of getting another bar or star, though, the baatezu gets a new and better form. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:09:09
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| Dicefreaks' The Gates of Hell is a pretty good 3rd part supplement that covers the advancement of devils, IIRC. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:26:47
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| 4e at least has changed this, though I believe it goes back to 3.5e. There are infinite balors ( everything in the abyss is infinite ) though only a dozen or so are known at any given time. Also, not all demons start at the bottom of the ladder and work their way up, though that's one way to go about it. The abyss can spit out a demon of any type at any time, bump a mane into a balor instantly, or the other way around, The abyss is fickle. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:28:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Same thing, though where the tanar'ri advancement is generally based on luck and the strong grabbing the chance, the baatezu follow a rigid promotion heirarchy. Exactly what you have to do impress your superiors enough to get promoted is left vague, but it's very much like an extremely evil and strict military. A fiend has superiors and those superiors put it up for promotion. Instead of getting another bar or star, though, the baatezu gets a new and better form.
Good stuff! I would love to see some novels covering this area. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
4e at least has changed this, though I believe it goes back to 3.5e. There are infinite balors ( everything in the abyss is infinite ) though only a dozen or so are known at any given time. Also, not all demons start at the bottom of the ladder and work their way up, though that's one way to go about it. The abyss can spit out a demon of any type at any time, bump a mane into a balor instantly, or the other way around, The abyss is fickle.
That just sounds sooooo chaotic |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 16:59:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Same thing, though where the tanar'ri advancement is generally based on luck and the strong grabbing the chance, the baatezu follow a rigid promotion heirarchy. Exactly what you have to do impress your superiors enough to get promoted is left vague, but it's very much like an extremely evil and strict military. A fiend has superiors and those superiors put it up for promotion. Instead of getting another bar or star, though, the baatezu gets a new and better form.
Hmmm, so every Balor was at one time a succubus or a marilith? Wonder how that screws with their sexual identity. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 17:03:12
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| Balors don't have sexual identities. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 17:31:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Same thing, though where the tanar'ri advancement is generally based on luck and the strong grabbing the chance, the baatezu follow a rigid promotion heirarchy. Exactly what you have to do impress your superiors enough to get promoted is left vague, but it's very much like an extremely evil and strict military. A fiend has superiors and those superiors put it up for promotion. Instead of getting another bar or star, though, the baatezu gets a new and better form.
Hmmm, so every Balor was at one time a succubus or a marilith? Wonder how that screws with their sexual identity.
This brings up another question: Does a future-Balor have to be every single type of Tanar'ri over the course of their rise, or can they pass some forms by completely? Perhaps a glabrezu can transform into a Balor without becoming a Marilith first? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 17:58:22
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| Yes. The change can be be completely random, and it doesn't have to happen at all; the balor can be "born" fully formed. But matters of sexual identity and gender are meaningless to demons, or to non-unique demons at any rate. Most have no gender to speak of, lacking parts as well as drive. Even inncubi (and pre-4e succubi) lack gender in the sense that they can be male or female, depending on what suits their mood or purpose. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 20:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Yes. The change can be be completely random, and it doesn't have to happen at all; the balor can be "born" fully formed. But matters of sexual identity and gender are meaningless to demons, or to non-unique demons at any rate. Most have no gender to speak of, lacking parts as well as drive. Even inncubi (and pre-4e succubi) lack gender in the sense that they can be male or female, depending on what suits their mood or purpose.
Hmm I wonder what kind of event needs to occur for a Balor to be created like this. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 20:46:03
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| You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 21:58:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 22:13:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but i checked it out and it's a D&D book and Brian is one of the authors |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 21 Oct 2011 22:14:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 00:02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but i checked it out and it's a D&D book and Brian is one of the authors
I was not being sarcastic. I've not paid attention to much from WotC, of late. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 00:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but i checked it out and it's a D&D book and Brian is one of the authors
I was not being sarcastic. I've not paid attention to much from WotC, of late.
It was a 4E book so i don't blame you |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 04:35:36
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The most comprehensive source on the topic would be 2e's "Faces of Evil: the Fiends" which has an awesome chart of the baatezu promotion scheme. It also has details of the yugoloth promotion route and process, and on the (multitude or lack of) tanar'ri promotion ladder.
A few fiends have been introduced since then (some of which are one offs never mentioned ever again, but a few others have gotten traction), and as far as tanar'ri go, the late 3.x Fiendish Codex I does a very, very good job on the topic.
I can't speak on 4e sources since it's for a completely different cosmology with different alignment structure, in-game history, lore etc.
I suppose I'm one of the folks to ask regarding such things in Pathfinder for daemons/yugoloths (the daemon book is out in a month). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 05:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interesting in checking out the Demonomicon sourcebook released last year. Chapter One includes quite a bit of what you're looking for, including the how and why of demonic ascension, including spontaneous transformations.
Is this a WotC book, or third party?
See here:- http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/253860000
Yeah, I didn't want to Google that one at work. I wasn't going to see how our web filter would react to that title! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 08:29:01
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Pah, you cower before your web filter. No guts no glory, go big or go home!
I strain every limitation of my workplace, my underlings and bosses and computers and tools all groan and stagger when I push them right to (or circumvent) the breaking point. I can get away with it, of course, because I'm utterly indispensable ... which alas means I cannot be fired, nor can I be promoted. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 13:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Pah, you cower before your web filter. No guts no glory, go big or go home!
I strain every limitation of my workplace, my underlings and bosses and computers and tools all groan and stagger when I push them right to (or circumvent) the breaking point. I can get away with it, of course, because I'm utterly indispensable ... which alas means I cannot be fired, nor can I be promoted.
There's a fair number of us, and after spending a painfully long chunk of time unemployed, I prefer to play it safe. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 14:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Pah, you cower before your web filter. No guts no glory, go big or go home!
I strain every limitation of my workplace, my underlings and bosses and computers and tools all groan and stagger when I push them right to (or circumvent) the breaking point. I can get away with it, of course, because I'm utterly indispensable ... which alas means I cannot be fired, nor can I be promoted.
There's a fair number of us, and after spending a painfully long chunk of time unemployed, I prefer to play it safe.
Yeah my job can really get in the way of reading and posting on here  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Tanar'ri Question
