| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Reefy |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 01:22:22
It's no big deal, but I'm merely curious: anybody know why the Moonstar Agent prestige class seems to be more powerful than the Harper Agent?
They both have roughly equal prerequisites, a lore ability and five other abilities. It's hard to compare them exactly, but I'd guess they're roughly equivalent. Yet the Moonstar Agent gets +1 level of existing spellcasting class at 1st level, which the Harper Agent doesn't, and good Reflex save, which the Harper Agent doesn't?
I'm probably going to house rule the Harper Agent gets both of those, can anyone see this as a problem? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 01:18:26
I love the Manshoon Wars concept. In fact, on the tidbits Steven's provided here... I've carried on the Wars in my own campaigns, somewhat. Including the official three, at this point in my campaign... only two are aware that there is another being claiming to be Manshoon -- one in Thay, and the other is presently moving through the circles of Baldur's Gate criminal underworld. Another, as I've described previously in Steven's scroll, is somewhere in Realmspace, and the other is still on Krynn.
I know Steven's a comic fan, and I've always felt that the whole concept resembles, slightly, the second Dr. Doom Doombot saga when several of Doom's robot impersonators secretly activated and engaged in warfare against each other to demonstrate they were the true "Dr. Doom."
It's truly a shame this whole saga was never further developed.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 00:17:30
This Manshoon Wars thing sounds like it's straight out a comic book. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just kind of weird.
Then again, a lot of stuff in the Realms is a bit weird.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 07:09:33
quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
I kinda like the idea in general - maybe I wont have the 'all but three' clause in my campaign. :)
Like I said, the bit about becoming something other than a "living Manshoon clone" provides a nice out. I saw someone on the WotC forums that used that idea for an NPC. His Manshoon clone ran afoul of a girdle of masculinity/femininity, and a helm of opposite alignment -- making his Manshoon a good-aligned lady mage.
Also, we know some clones fled the Realms altogether. They could be on other parts of Toril, somewhere in space, or somewhere on the planes... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 06:55:43
C&D is really the only source that provides a good basis for the set-up of the Manshoon Wars. And since it has never been properly followed up, except for us being told how many clones still remain in 3e (officially there are three but Ed has said there are likely to be more we still don't know about), there hasn't been much on it from that point on.
I'd also suggest you read through Steven's many replies on the subject here at Candlekeep.
|
| Dhomal |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 06:12:41
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Basically, Steven Schend intended to generate a specific religious focus for the Zhentarim through the Manshoon Wars. This was why they originally became worshippers of Xvim. In addition, Steven wanted to make Manshoon an unknown element within the general plot running through the Realmslore. Each "Manshoon" would be discreetly dropped into future FR accessories, giving DMs wider choices with regard to how to plan and play the overall effects and results, of Manshoon and his clones, upon the Realms. That is why we originally learned that there were so many (at least forty) clones now scouting around Faerun looking to make places for themselves.
Hello-
Thanks for the word on that Sage, makes lots of sense. The Zhentarim being somewhat divided between Manshoon and Fzoul always seemed to me as a partial reason they were n ot doing better in their plans - as they Both seemed to have their own plans.
I will have to go re-read parts of C&D to get a better feel for what is listed there. Any other main sources?
I kinda like the idea in general - maybe I wont have the 'all but three' clause in my campaign. :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 06:07:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
This is ironic as the Moonstars do believe "the means justify the end" and will get their hands dirty “with evil” and will commit immoral acts for the greater good...
Not all Moonstars act the same way, necessarily. They are still individuals.
But still, their reputation would be kind of darkened that eventually it would make them no different from the other shady dark organizations.
What reputation? The Moonstars aren't really known about, beyond the Harpers and the Moonstars themselves. And with the way the Moonstars are structured, I'm thinking most of the Moonstars themselves won't know what other Moonstars are doing. Khelben calls the shots, and he's known for playing his cards close to his vest...
Indeed.
Such a strategy gives Khelben a considerable amount of freedom in utilising the Moonstars. As well, it maintains that all his enemies, and by extension, those of the Moonstars, are always kept a few steps behind his plans because they've got so many Moonstar directions to follow.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 04:30:07
Heh, good point Wooly. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 04:20:35
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
This is ironic as the Moonstars do believe "the means justify the end" and will get their hands dirty “with evil” and will commit immoral acts for the greater good...
Not all Moonstars act the same way, necessarily. They are still individuals.
But still, their reputation would be kind of darkened that eventually it would make them no different from the other shady dark organizations.
What reputation? The Moonstars aren't really known about, beyond the Harpers and the Moonstars themselves. And with the way the Moonstars are structured, I'm thinking most of the Moonstars themselves won't know what other Moonstars are doing. Khelben calls the shots, and he's known for playing his cards close to his vest... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:46:52
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
But still, their reputation would be kind of darkened that eventually it would make them no different from the other shady dark organizations.
True, but I think enough of the people are good that it wouldn't likely happen anytime soon...then again, I like this group so I'm a bit biased. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:45:50
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
This is ironic as the Moonstars do believe "the means justify the end" and will get their hands dirty “with evil” and will commit immoral acts for the greater good...
Not all Moonstars act the same way, necessarily. They are still individuals.
But still, their reputation would be kind of darkened that eventually it would make them no different from the other shady dark organizations. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:27:07
quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been.
Hello-
I had been, somewhat recently, wondering what had happened with the whole Manshoon Wars issue. I saw him mentioned in MoM, but I could not remember what had happened. I actually liked a bit of what we were beginnning to see. Almost a 'Dr. Doom' kind of effect on the world I thought. Hmmm - maybe thats something to either prod for more information on - or assume that it is actually still an issue.
Dhomal
Basically, Steven Schend intended to generate a specific religious focus for the Zhentarim through the Manshoon Wars. This was why they originally became worshippers of Xvim. In addition, Steven wanted to make Manshoon an unknown element within the general plot running through the Realmslore. Each "Manshoon" would be discreetly dropped into future FR accessories, giving DMs wider choices with regard to how to plan and play the overall effects and results, of Manshoon and his clones, upon the Realms. That is why we originally learned that there were so many (at least forty) clones now scouting around Faerun looking to make places for themselves.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 00:54:40
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
This is ironic as the Moonstars do believe "the means justify the end" and will get their hands dirty “with evil” and will commit immoral acts for the greater good...
Not all Moonstars act the same way, necessarily. They are still individuals. |
| Reefy |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 00:49:26
Oh, and thanks to Eric on the house rule question. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 00:28:40
Most importantly is that it is canon than and not just something I made up!
Thanks again for the info. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:48:56
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
There is something about helben and the Moonstars that lurks in the back of my head and I cannot really figure out where I have heard or read about it, I even might have made it up. So help me to figure this out:
Did Khelben or did he not strike a deal with Fzoul in which they agreed upon the Moonstars will leave the Zhentarim alone as long as the evil organiation will not make any efforts to spread its power further west than Darkhold???
He did. It's in Cloak & Dagger in the timeline and the Moonstar's entry.
So Cloak and Dagger was - or might have been - my source! I cannot remember where I have read that book though, since I don't have it myself nor anyone I know... a mystery, really. Might have been a blessing by Oghma than? 
Thank you anyway, Kuje.
Hmmm maybe it's summerized in the FRCS but I know for a fact it's in C&D. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:48:08
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
There is something about helben and the Moonstars that lurks in the back of my head and I cannot really figure out where I have heard or read about it, I even might have made it up. So help me to figure this out:
Did Khelben or did he not strike a deal with Fzoul in which they agreed upon the Moonstars will leave the Zhentarim alone as long as the evil organiation will not make any efforts to spread its power further west than Darkhold???
He did. It's in Cloak & Dagger in the timeline and the Moonstar's entry.
So Cloak and Dagger was - or might have been - my source! I cannot remember where I have read that book though, since I don't have it myself nor anyone I know... a mystery, really. Might have been a blessing by Oghma than?
Thank you anyway, Kuje. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:27:00
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The quoted bit comes from a book called Amagal's Tome. But what led to the formation of the Moonstars was something Khelben read in Alaundo's Prophecies, something that only he saw. From page 26 of Cloak & Dagger:
yeah, thats what I remembered too...is there any canon that Elminster or any of the other Choosen give this prophesy any credit? Or is Khelben just obsessing? He is kind of a prefect afterall 
I don't know if any Chosen other than Laeral has even seen the prophecy that's got Khelben worked up... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:14:31
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
There is something about helben and the Moonstars that lurks in the back of my head and I cannot really figure out where I have heard or read about it, I even might have made it up. So help me to figure this out:
Did Khelben or did he not strike a deal with Fzoul in which they agreed upon the Moonstars will leave the Zhentarim alone as long as the evil organiation will not make any efforts to spread its power further west than Darkhold???
He did. It's in Cloak & Dagger in the timeline and the Moonstar's entry. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:06:20
There is something about Khelben and the Moonstars that lurks in the back of my head and I cannot really figure out where I have heard or read about it, I even might have made it up. So help me to figure this out:
Did Khelben or did he not strike a deal with Fzoul in which they agreed upon the Moonstars will leave the Zhentarim alone as long as the evil organiation will not make any efforts to spread its power further west than Darkhold???
|
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 20:59:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The quoted bit comes from a book called Amagal's Tome. But what led to the formation of the Moonstars was something Khelben read in Alaundo's Prophecies, something that only he saw. From page 26 of Cloak & Dagger:
yeah, thats what I remembered too...is there any canon that Elminster or any of the other Choosen give this prophesy any credit? Or is Khelben just obsessing? He is kind of a prefect afterall |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 20:35:47
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I love that prophesy, a great opening for years of novels, accessories and modules
But is it one of Alaundo’s prophecies? “an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor” 
The quoted bit comes from a book called Amagal's Tome. But what led to the formation of the Moonstars was something Khelben read in Alaundo's Prophecies, something that only he saw. From page 26 of Cloak & Dagger:
quote:
Few realized that he’s been obsessed with some great threats since the Year of the Laughing Swan (816 DR). While under an assumed name and in his seventh year as a cloistered monk at Candlekeep, Khelben discovered some dire threat within Alaundo's Prophecies and began planning contingencies to thwart it. (Laeral sometimes wonders if he did not have some prophetic flashes himself, for she has read the Prophecies as well, and does not see what Khelben says he saw.) Among the contingencies are his and Elminster’s constant shepherding of the Harpers as a group to combat the threat, but over time, this group slipped out of Khelhen’s control, and he had yet to build the group he felt he needed.
|
| Jorkens |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 19:17:31
What do you mean Manshoon replacing Volo? Every one knows that it was the other way around. Why do you think the Volo guides stopped coming out? Just wait and see what happens as the great traveler of the realms reshapes the Zentharim in his own image. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 19:10:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been.
I would have rathered the canon dropped than (in my opinion) down played into a footnote, especially the Harper Schism...who knows what is happening as the Harpers are imploding? I never really was thrilled with the idea of the Manshoon Wars but I thought it was started off well until the idea faded away into a couple-sentence summary.
I’m just glad that there are no more replacements of power figures by Manshoon clones, like the vampire Night King of Westgate, that would have been getting pretty cheesy (Manshoon replaces Halaster, Manshoon replaces Szas Tam, Manshoon replaces Volo, etc.). 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, we can't forget Khelben's concern about whatever he saw in Alaundo's prophecies. Remember this bit, from page 25 of Cloak & Dagger:
quote:
At least one sagely member identified an ancient prophecy in Amagal's Tome, an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor, as noting that the Tel'Teukiira "will come hidden and in many guises and faces. They dwell in shadow and speak in omens, yet they shall bring about waking dreams and save us from the Three Threats Who Wait In Darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves." None of the Tel'Teukiira can say what all this means, though many suspect Khelben knows and simply does not say.
I love that prophesy, a great opening for years of novels, accessories and modules
But is it one of Alaundo’s prophecies? “an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor”
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 18:51:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been.
Hello-
I had been, somewhat recently, wondering what had happened with the whole Manshoon Wars issue. I saw him mentioned in MoM, but I could not remember what had happened. I actually liked a bit of what we were beginnning to see. Almost a 'Dr. Doom' kind of effect on the world I thought. Hmmm - maybe thats something to either prod for more information on - or assume that it is actually still an issue.
Dhomal
According to the FRCS, it's over and done with, with three Manshoons still around. There's one hanging out with Halaster in Undermountain, "Manshoon Prime" with the Zhentarim, and the last is the vampire Orbakh II, the Night King of Westgate.
Of course, that's the official stance. Cloak & Dagger noted that if a Manshoon clone became something other than a "living Manshoon clone", then they were freed of the compulsion to try to kill each other. So it's easy to say that there are several former Manshoon clones still wandering the Realms. |
| Dhomal |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 18:32:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been.
Hello-
I had been, somewhat recently, wondering what had happened with the whole Manshoon Wars issue. I saw him mentioned in MoM, but I could not remember what had happened. I actually liked a bit of what we were beginnning to see. Almost a 'Dr. Doom' kind of effect on the world I thought. Hmmm - maybe thats something to either prod for more information on - or assume that it is actually still an issue.
Dhomal |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 17:21:47
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I actually like the idea of the Moonstars more than the Harpers but so far to me (in a designer's point of view), the Moonstar's development seems to be going down the same path as the Harpers (except being bossed around by the Blackstaff), i think they need something more to make them separate
They are essentially similar though, they're still just about part of the same organisation, and certainly serve the same purpose.
I'd not say they serve the same purpose... Part of the reason for the formation of the Tel'Teukiira was to get back to the original purpose of the Harpers -- a purpose the Harpers themselves have shifted away from (that's why the Heralds broke from the Harpers). Also, we can't forget Khelben's concern about whatever he saw in Alaundo's prophecies. Remember this bit, from page 25 of Cloak & Dagger:
quote:
At least one sagely member identified an ancient prophecy in Amagal's Tome, an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor, as noting that the Tel'Teukiira "will come hidden and in many guises and faces. They dwell in shadow and speak in omens, yet they shall bring about waking dreams and save us from the Three Threats Who Wait In Darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves." None of the Tel'Teukiira can say what all this means, though many suspect Khelben knows and simply does not say.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 17:15:46
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The group was intro'ed in one of the last (and one of the best) 2E supplements, Cloak & Dagger.
That’s very true, Cloak and Dagger probably had more quality cannon and advanced the timeline more that the last 10 Realms books before it
I actually like the idea of the Moonstars more than the Harpers but so far to me (in a designer's point of view), the Moonstar's development seems to be going down the same path as the Harpers (except being bossed around by the Blackstaff), i think they need something more to make them separate
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 15:42:15
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
They are essentially similar though, they're still just about part of the same organisation, and certainly serve the same purpose.
I agree with that except part of the same organization...I feel that Khelben felt the Harpers were getting weak and complacent and have gone off the tracks with their true purpose and so Khelben reformed "his” Harpers" into what we call the Moonstars.
I don't think they are the same organization, I think the Moonstars take a harder line of "good vs evil", seeing things more black and white while the Harpers are more into the gray of ideology.
This is ironic as the Moonstars do believe "the means justify the end" and will get their hands dirty “with evil” and will commit immoral acts for the greater good (like Khelben) while the Harpers have become more sanctimonious about themselves and their actions (i.e. the exalted Harper Paragon prestige class) and so, as it always happens when good becomes arrogant with their own “goodness” the Harpers have become stale and fanatical, thus the Berdusk schism in the Harpers.
I imagine that in the decades ahead the Harpers will self-destruct like the Harper King and the Harpstar wars (is that the right name?) and then Khelben and Elminister will use the Moonstars to reforge the Harpers into the original, more covert, more balanced organization.
I need to go back to Steven Schend's replies to get a feel of his vision of the Moonstars
|
| Reefy |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 15:06:49
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I actually like the idea of the Moonstars more than the Harpers but so far to me (in a designer's point of view), the Moonstar's development seems to be going down the same path as the Harpers (except being bossed around by the Blackstaff), i think they need something more to make them separate
They are essentially similar though, they're still just about part of the same organisation, and certainly serve the same purpose. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 14:50:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The group was intro'ed in one of the last (and one of the best) 2E supplements, Cloak & Dagger.
That’s very true, Cloak and Dagger probably had more quality cannon and advanced the timeline more that the last 10 Realms books before it
I actually like the idea of the Moonstars more than the Harpers but so far to me (in a designer's point of view), the Moonstar's development seems to be going down the same path as the Harpers (except being bossed around by the Blackstaff), i think they need something more to make them separate
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