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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 01:22:22
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It's no big deal, but I'm merely curious: anybody know why the Moonstar Agent prestige class seems to be more powerful than the Harper Agent?
They both have roughly equal prerequisites, a lore ability and five other abilities. It's hard to compare them exactly, but I'd guess they're roughly equivalent. Yet the Moonstar Agent gets +1 level of existing spellcasting class at 1st level, which the Harper Agent doesn't, and good Reflex save, which the Harper Agent doesn't?
I'm probably going to house rule the Harper Agent gets both of those, can anyone see this as a problem?
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Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36988 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 02:11:01
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| The Moonstar Agent prolly gets those because it's harder to get in, and Khelben demands more of the Tel'Teukiira than Berdusk does of the Harpers. Though it's not quite an accurate statement, the Moonstars are more elite than the Harpers. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 02:21:39
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That's true, and I can understand the Reflex save based on the more stealth orientated aspect of the Moonstars that is presented with the PrC.
I'd never considered the Harper Agent a particularly powerful class (and nor would I consider the Moonstar Agent one), but in comparison it seems to have been given a raw deal. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 02:31:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
It's no big deal, but I'm merely curious: anybody know why the Moonstar Agent prestige class seems to be more powerful than the Harper Agent?
They both have roughly equal prerequisites, a lore ability and five other abilities. It's hard to compare them exactly, but I'd guess they're roughly equivalent. Yet the Moonstar Agent gets +1 level of existing spellcasting class at 1st level, which the Harper Agent doesn't, and good Reflex save, which the Harper Agent doesn't?
I'm probably going to house rule the Harper Agent gets both of those, can anyone see this as a problem?
I think that's an excellent houserule for the Harper Agent.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 08:46:48
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Just to through in something to think about:
Their are other PrC for Harpers besides the Agent (that seems to focus mainly on the ranger/rogue characters). MoF introduces the PrC of "Harper Mage" and "Harper Priest". Those have a progressing spells per day entry. You might want to check them out.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Akryn
Acolyte
Finland
14 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 09:03:52
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Have to ask;
Is there a thread about the Tel'Teukiira or more information about them lying around in some of the dusty tomes at Candlekeep or would someone care to relate a bit more about them (History, initiation, goals etc). In what book is the PrC described in.
And to add to this my penny on the Harper PrC.
I think that the PrC itself stat wise inst that powerful but if the DM is knowledgeable about the realms it be possible to gain lots of gaming advantages for being initiated not just "ok, now you get the Harper Prc after being sponsored by Harper X.. you gain xx and xx plus skill x. Its all about how the person play the harper and how well the DM understands the ways of the ones who harp..
just my penny here :D |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 09:11:43
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Moonstar agent as well as the Tel'Teukiira are discribed in the 3.5 Waterdeep sourcebook.
Comment on Akryn's penny:
I second that - its all about how the person plays the harper and how well the DM understands the ways of the ones who harp... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36988 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 13:32:09
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| The group was intro'ed in one of the last (and one of the best) 2E supplements, Cloak & Dagger. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 13:55:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Akryn
Is there a thread about the Tel'Teukiira or more information about them lying around in some of the dusty tomes at Candlekeep or would someone care to relate a bit more about them (History, initiation, goals etc). In what book is the PrC described in.
In addition to the sources mentioned already, I'd also recommend you read through some of Steven Schend's replies here at Candlekeep.
He's discussed the Moonstars from time to time and offered some rather intriguing thoughts on their development as well as their relationship with the Harpers. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 13 Jul 2006 13:55:57 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 14:50:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The group was intro'ed in one of the last (and one of the best) 2E supplements, Cloak & Dagger.
That’s very true, Cloak and Dagger probably had more quality cannon and advanced the timeline more that the last 10 Realms books before it
I actually like the idea of the Moonstars more than the Harpers but so far to me (in a designer's point of view), the Moonstar's development seems to be going down the same path as the Harpers (except being bossed around by the Blackstaff), i think they need something more to make them separate
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 15:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I actually like the idea of the Moonstars more than the Harpers but so far to me (in a designer's point of view), the Moonstar's development seems to be going down the same path as the Harpers (except being bossed around by the Blackstaff), i think they need something more to make them separate
They are essentially similar though, they're still just about part of the same organisation, and certainly serve the same purpose. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 15:42:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
They are essentially similar though, they're still just about part of the same organisation, and certainly serve the same purpose.
I agree with that except part of the same organization...I feel that Khelben felt the Harpers were getting weak and complacent and have gone off the tracks with their true purpose and so Khelben reformed "his” Harpers" into what we call the Moonstars.
I don't think they are the same organization, I think the Moonstars take a harder line of "good vs evil", seeing things more black and white while the Harpers are more into the gray of ideology.
This is ironic as the Moonstars do believe "the means justify the end" and will get their hands dirty “with evil” and will commit immoral acts for the greater good (like Khelben) while the Harpers have become more sanctimonious about themselves and their actions (i.e. the exalted Harper Paragon prestige class) and so, as it always happens when good becomes arrogant with their own “goodness” the Harpers have become stale and fanatical, thus the Berdusk schism in the Harpers.
I imagine that in the decades ahead the Harpers will self-destruct like the Harper King and the Harpstar wars (is that the right name?) and then Khelben and Elminister will use the Moonstars to reforge the Harpers into the original, more covert, more balanced organization.
I need to go back to Steven Schend's replies to get a feel of his vision of the Moonstars
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36988 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 17:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The group was intro'ed in one of the last (and one of the best) 2E supplements, Cloak & Dagger.
That’s very true, Cloak and Dagger probably had more quality cannon and advanced the timeline more that the last 10 Realms books before it
I actually like the idea of the Moonstars more than the Harpers but so far to me (in a designer's point of view), the Moonstar's development seems to be going down the same path as the Harpers (except being bossed around by the Blackstaff), i think they need something more to make them separate
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36988 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 17:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I actually like the idea of the Moonstars more than the Harpers but so far to me (in a designer's point of view), the Moonstar's development seems to be going down the same path as the Harpers (except being bossed around by the Blackstaff), i think they need something more to make them separate
They are essentially similar though, they're still just about part of the same organisation, and certainly serve the same purpose.
I'd not say they serve the same purpose... Part of the reason for the formation of the Tel'Teukiira was to get back to the original purpose of the Harpers -- a purpose the Harpers themselves have shifted away from (that's why the Heralds broke from the Harpers). Also, we can't forget Khelben's concern about whatever he saw in Alaundo's prophecies. Remember this bit, from page 25 of Cloak & Dagger:
quote:
At least one sagely member identified an ancient prophecy in Amagal's Tome, an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor, as noting that the Tel'Teukiira "will come hidden and in many guises and faces. They dwell in shadow and speak in omens, yet they shall bring about waking dreams and save us from the Three Threats Who Wait In Darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves." None of the Tel'Teukiira can say what all this means, though many suspect Khelben knows and simply does not say.
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 18:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been.
Hello-
I had been, somewhat recently, wondering what had happened with the whole Manshoon Wars issue. I saw him mentioned in MoM, but I could not remember what had happened. I actually liked a bit of what we were beginnning to see. Almost a 'Dr. Doom' kind of effect on the world I thought. Hmmm - maybe thats something to either prod for more information on - or assume that it is actually still an issue.
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36988 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 18:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been.
Hello-
I had been, somewhat recently, wondering what had happened with the whole Manshoon Wars issue. I saw him mentioned in MoM, but I could not remember what had happened. I actually liked a bit of what we were beginnning to see. Almost a 'Dr. Doom' kind of effect on the world I thought. Hmmm - maybe thats something to either prod for more information on - or assume that it is actually still an issue.
Dhomal
According to the FRCS, it's over and done with, with three Manshoons still around. There's one hanging out with Halaster in Undermountain, "Manshoon Prime" with the Zhentarim, and the last is the vampire Orbakh II, the Night King of Westgate.
Of course, that's the official stance. Cloak & Dagger noted that if a Manshoon clone became something other than a "living Manshoon clone", then they were freed of the compulsion to try to kill each other. So it's easy to say that there are several former Manshoon clones still wandering the Realms. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 19:10:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been.
I would have rathered the canon dropped than (in my opinion) down played into a footnote, especially the Harper Schism...who knows what is happening as the Harpers are imploding? I never really was thrilled with the idea of the Manshoon Wars but I thought it was started off well until the idea faded away into a couple-sentence summary.
I’m just glad that there are no more replacements of power figures by Manshoon clones, like the vampire Night King of Westgate, that would have been getting pretty cheesy (Manshoon replaces Halaster, Manshoon replaces Szas Tam, Manshoon replaces Volo, etc.).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, we can't forget Khelben's concern about whatever he saw in Alaundo's prophecies. Remember this bit, from page 25 of Cloak & Dagger:
quote:
At least one sagely member identified an ancient prophecy in Amagal's Tome, an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor, as noting that the Tel'Teukiira "will come hidden and in many guises and faces. They dwell in shadow and speak in omens, yet they shall bring about waking dreams and save us from the Three Threats Who Wait In Darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves." None of the Tel'Teukiira can say what all this means, though many suspect Khelben knows and simply does not say.
I love that prophesy, a great opening for years of novels, accessories and modules 
But is it one of Alaundo’s prophecies? “an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor” 
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 19:17:31
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| What do you mean Manshoon replacing Volo? Every one knows that it was the other way around. Why do you think the Volo guides stopped coming out? Just wait and see what happens as the great traveler of the realms reshapes the Zentharim in his own image. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36988 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 20:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I love that prophesy, a great opening for years of novels, accessories and modules
But is it one of Alaundo’s prophecies? “an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor”
The quoted bit comes from a book called Amagal's Tome. But what led to the formation of the Moonstars was something Khelben read in Alaundo's Prophecies, something that only he saw. From page 26 of Cloak & Dagger:
quote:
Few realized that he’s been obsessed with some great threats since the Year of the Laughing Swan (816 DR). While under an assumed name and in his seventh year as a cloistered monk at Candlekeep, Khelben discovered some dire threat within Alaundo's Prophecies and began planning contingencies to thwart it. (Laeral sometimes wonders if he did not have some prophetic flashes himself, for she has read the Prophecies as well, and does not see what Khelben says he saw.) Among the contingencies are his and Elminster’s constant shepherding of the Harpers as a group to combat the threat, but over time, this group slipped out of Khelhen’s control, and he had yet to build the group he felt he needed.
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 20:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The quoted bit comes from a book called Amagal's Tome. But what led to the formation of the Moonstars was something Khelben read in Alaundo's Prophecies, something that only he saw. From page 26 of Cloak & Dagger:
yeah, thats what I remembered too...is there any canon that Elminster or any of the other Choosen give this prophesy any credit? Or is Khelben just obsessing?  He is kind of a prefect afterall |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:06:20
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There is something about Khelben and the Moonstars that lurks in the back of my head and I cannot really figure out where I have heard or read about it, I even might have made it up. So help me to figure this out:
Did Khelben or did he not strike a deal with Fzoul in which they agreed upon the Moonstars will leave the Zhentarim alone as long as the evil organiation will not make any efforts to spread its power further west than Darkhold???
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 13 Jul 2006 23:40:50 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:14:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
There is something about helben and the Moonstars that lurks in the back of my head and I cannot really figure out where I have heard or read about it, I even might have made it up. So help me to figure this out:
Did Khelben or did he not strike a deal with Fzoul in which they agreed upon the Moonstars will leave the Zhentarim alone as long as the evil organiation will not make any efforts to spread its power further west than Darkhold???
He did. It's in Cloak & Dagger in the timeline and the Moonstar's entry. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36988 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:27:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The quoted bit comes from a book called Amagal's Tome. But what led to the formation of the Moonstars was something Khelben read in Alaundo's Prophecies, something that only he saw. From page 26 of Cloak & Dagger:
yeah, thats what I remembered too...is there any canon that Elminster or any of the other Choosen give this prophesy any credit? Or is Khelben just obsessing? He is kind of a prefect afterall
I don't know if any Chosen other than Laeral has even seen the prophecy that's got Khelben worked up... |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:48:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
There is something about helben and the Moonstars that lurks in the back of my head and I cannot really figure out where I have heard or read about it, I even might have made it up. So help me to figure this out:
Did Khelben or did he not strike a deal with Fzoul in which they agreed upon the Moonstars will leave the Zhentarim alone as long as the evil organiation will not make any efforts to spread its power further west than Darkhold???
He did. It's in Cloak & Dagger in the timeline and the Moonstar's entry.
So Cloak and Dagger was - or might have been - my source! I cannot remember where I have read that book though, since I don't have it myself nor anyone I know... a mystery, really. Might have been a blessing by Oghma than?
Thank you anyway, Kuje. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 23:48:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
There is something about helben and the Moonstars that lurks in the back of my head and I cannot really figure out where I have heard or read about it, I even might have made it up. So help me to figure this out:
Did Khelben or did he not strike a deal with Fzoul in which they agreed upon the Moonstars will leave the Zhentarim alone as long as the evil organiation will not make any efforts to spread its power further west than Darkhold???
He did. It's in Cloak & Dagger in the timeline and the Moonstar's entry.
So Cloak and Dagger was - or might have been - my source! I cannot remember where I have read that book though, since I don't have it myself nor anyone I know... a mystery, really. Might have been a blessing by Oghma than?
Thank you anyway, Kuje.
Hmmm maybe it's summerized in the FRCS but I know for a fact it's in C&D. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 00:28:40
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Most importantly is that it is canon than and not just something I made up!
Thanks again for the info. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 00:49:26
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Oh, and thanks to Eric on the house rule question.  |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 00:54:40
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
This is ironic as the Moonstars do believe "the means justify the end" and will get their hands dirty “with evil” and will commit immoral acts for the greater good...
Not all Moonstars act the same way, necessarily. They are still individuals. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:27:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of what irked me about the unleashing of 3E was that much of the stuff intro'ed in Cloak & Dagger was brushed aside or just dropped. The Manshoon Wars could have lead to years of material (and I believe Steven said that was part of the intent), but it was like "Oh, yeah, this happened, but it's over." Ditto for the Harper Schism -- it has been somewhat more developed, but it's not being used as well as it could have been.
Hello-
I had been, somewhat recently, wondering what had happened with the whole Manshoon Wars issue. I saw him mentioned in MoM, but I could not remember what had happened. I actually liked a bit of what we were beginnning to see. Almost a 'Dr. Doom' kind of effect on the world I thought. Hmmm - maybe thats something to either prod for more information on - or assume that it is actually still an issue.
Dhomal
Basically, Steven Schend intended to generate a specific religious focus for the Zhentarim through the Manshoon Wars. This was why they originally became worshippers of Xvim. In addition, Steven wanted to make Manshoon an unknown element within the general plot running through the Realmslore. Each "Manshoon" would be discreetly dropped into future FR accessories, giving DMs wider choices with regard to how to plan and play the overall effects and results, of Manshoon and his clones, upon the Realms. That is why we originally learned that there were so many (at least forty) clones now scouting around Faerun looking to make places for themselves.
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
This is ironic as the Moonstars do believe "the means justify the end" and will get their hands dirty “with evil” and will commit immoral acts for the greater good...
Not all Moonstars act the same way, necessarily. They are still individuals.
But still, their reputation would be kind of darkened that eventually it would make them no different from the other shady dark organizations. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
But still, their reputation would be kind of darkened that eventually it would make them no different from the other shady dark organizations.
True, but I think enough of the people are good that it wouldn't likely happen anytime soon...then again, I like this group so I'm a bit biased. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Harper Agent vs Moonstar Agent
