| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:11:05
Just looking for a quick confirm/deny here - I vaguely recall someone on a different forum once posted an excerpt of Elaith Craulnober's statistics from Waterdeep and the North, wherein he was described as "NE Erevan Ilesere" or something along those lines.
A) Is this tidbit actually in Waterdeep and the North (or any sourcebook for that matter)?
B) If true, am I right in thinking it means Erevan Ilesere is his patron deity?
Thanks. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 22:35:25
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also see this thread here. The first half of the first page is about my character, Fox-at-Twilight, but then it talks about the trickster-touched template. This could be a great alternative to a favored soul--I could definitely see Elaith Craulnober having this template: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10646
Cheers
-I'll admit, I don't see it. I could possibly see Erevan Illesere possibly being interested in Elaith Craulnober in the sense that so much of his later life since leaving Evermeet is filled with...'depressing irony' (either being the supernatural cause of it, or having his interest piqued because of it), but I really don't see why he would be involved any more than that- especially to the degree of having somehow empowered Elaith. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 04:29:21
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I think because of this, the deities in the Realms do not create Favored Souls without much consideration. Hence their rare numbers. Most deities wouldn't want a divine caster going rogue without suffering any divine repercussions and being stuck responsible for their very actions if they were the one that granted the divinity in the first place.
He wasn't a favored soul, but we have a very good example, in the Realms, of a deity picking a divine servant who then went rogue: Sammaster. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 04:15:15
I'm divided in my opinion here:
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Here's the Favored Souls in the Forgotten Realms article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070425
Add this to the description of the class in COMPLETE DIVINE and, from what I gather, Favored Souls are born with inner divine power and it becomes as much a part of their entire being as a Sorcerer's arcane magic is to them. It cannot be taken away from lack of worship or even from the breaking of tenets.
Totally buy that. That's absolutely my understanding. But . . .
quote:
The Favored Soul is, most of the time, beholden to the deity that granted the divine power. Sort of like just giving in to the destiny bestowed, whether they asked for it or not.
That I'm not so sure. Well, you said "most of the time," so I can be on board. I think a disgruntled or unhappy favored soul would be a GREAT story. In fact, I know it is, because that's basically what Cale's story is--a disgruntled favored soul telling a great story.
quote:
I think because of this, the deities in the Realms do not create Favored Souls without much consideration. Hence their rare numbers. Most deities wouldn't want a divine caster going rogue without suffering any divine repercussions and being stuck responsible for their very actions if they were the one that granted the divinity in the first place.
Some of the best tales come from deific mistakes or quirks of fate. There is so much room for cool story here.
I think Erevan (to connect it to the OP) is particularly likely to pick mortals *at random* (or at least seemingly so) and just watch it go. Either it'll work out for the best, or it will be a terrible mistake, but either way, it's fun to watch.
Also see this thread here. The first half of the first page is about my character, Fox-at-Twilight, but then it talks about the trickster-touched template. This could be a great alternative to a favored soul--I could definitely see Elaith Craulnober having this template: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10646
Cheers |
| Razz |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 21:24:18
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Divine magic:
If you have divine magic/abilities, your relationship is generally a little more cut-and-dried. Clerics have to worship a god to get his/her power. It's possible (I don't know about this -- I'd be interested to hear other opinions) that Favored Souls don't necessarily have to worship the god (heck, they might *hate* the particular god), but in a sense they are the personification of that god in the mortal world. Whether they want to be or not (they're chosen -- got little say in the matter).
Here's the Favored Souls in the Forgotten Realms article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070425
Add this to the description of the class in COMPLETE DIVINE and, from what I gather, Favored Souls are born with inner divine power and it becomes as much a part of their entire being as a Sorcerer's arcane magic is to them. It cannot be taken away from lack of worship or even from the breaking of tenets. The Favored Soul is, most of the time, beholden to the deity that granted the divine power. Sort of like just giving in to the destiny bestowed, whether they asked for it or not.
I think because of this, the deities in the Realms do not create Favored Souls without much consideration. Hence their rare numbers. Most deities wouldn't want a divine caster going rogue without suffering any divine repercussions and being stuck responsible for their very actions if they were the one that granted the divinity in the first place.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 17:58:29
I've been thinking about establishing an NPC in my campaign who is a philosopher from Chessenta and a reluctant as well as heretical priest of Assuran.
He believes that because men have the ability to understand the consequences of their actions, they have a duty to be better than the gods. No code of behaviour can ever cover all the contingencies and the monomanical focus of gods on their portfolios renders them unable to make truly moral choices.
The only way to morality is through a rational analysis of the situation and a choice that will do the least possible harm.
This philosopher would have chosen to serve Assuran largely because he believes that in order to do the least possible harm, a lot of gods and mortals will have to be forcibly restrained from their actions. And that in Assuran's dogma there can be found a desire for true justice, as long as someone helps the god to understand that justice is a judgment that you make about a turn of events after they have passed, not a state that can ever exist or a formal code. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 15:02:42
Well, the conversation basically goes this way (emphasis mine):
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I like the idea of someone who serves a deity but doesn't have especially warm feelings towards said deity. In fact, I have one character who is exactly like that.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Like Erevis Cale, perhaps? 
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
She's a bit different. She's a wizard who's not to keen on Mystra or religion in general, but she's ended up willingly serving Mystra anyway...and Mystra humors her by allowing her to think she is "in charge" of her own servitude. It's a strange relationship.
Which leads me to think that she's talking about one of her own characters. We'd need to ask her to be sure.
But what seems clear is that she's NOT talking about Erevis or Twilight.
And, fun fact, here:
quote:
In one of my campaigns, there's a character who is a favored soul of a deity he doesn't exactly trust and love -- he's just been "chosen" by that deity, largely against his own will. And even though he tries to thwart the deity's aims, he ends up working for the deity anyway.
I was talking about Kalen Dren (LG human male rogue 3/paladin 2 of Helm), who transcended my game and became an actual novel character named Shadowbane. (I was using the term "favored soul" loosely--not to mean the mechanical base class presented in Complete Divine.)
Cheers |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:45:39
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I got the impression she was talking about one of her own characters.
This thread certainly brings back memories, and sparks interesting thoughts about one of the characters in my novels/design work.
(And no, I don't mean Twilight. Another character involved with Erevan . . .)
Cheers
-The formatting is all weird, so I didn't know who was talking about what, but when I read "She's a wizard who's not to keen on Mystra or religion in general, but she's ended up willingly serving Mystra anyway...and Mystra humors her by allowing her to think she is "in charge" of her own servitude. It's a strange relationship", I immediately thought of Fox-at-Twilight. Wrong deity, but the rest is more or less accurate. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 03:50:27
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I wonder whom she meant though, not Erevis that's for sure.
I got the impression she was talking about one of her own characters.
This thread certainly brings back memories, and sparks interesting thoughts about one of the characters in my novels/design work.
(And no, I don't mean Twilight. Another character involved with Erevan . . .)
Cheers |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 02:43:41
I wonder whom she meant though, not Erevis that's for sure. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 02:20:17
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Hmmm. What? Could it be possible, Rinonalyrna, that you have not read the Erevis Cale/Twilight War trilogies? Paul Kemp gets a ton of well deserved respect around here. I've not seen many who disliked his work.
*emphasis mine
-She's read the former, but not the entire Twilight War trilogy. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 00:38:14
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Right well, the thing is, it's not MY opinion. I rather don't think that -- I think the whole construction of things like "being faithless and false" and "limbo" (in real world terms) is wrong and cruel. Just for the same reasons you point out later in your post.
But we aren't talking about real world religion and whatnot. And we aren't *going to*. (Breathe easy, Wooly! )
Agreed--however much I'd like to, because this is a topic that interests me.
quote:
Like Erevis Cale, perhaps?
She's a bit different. She's a wizard who's not to keen on Mystra or religion in general, but she's ended up willingly serving Mystra anyway...and Mystra humors her by allowing her to think she is "in charge" of her own servitude. It's a strange relationship.
quote:
In one of my campaigns, there's a character who is a favored soul of a deity he doesn't exactly trust and love -- he's just been "chosen" by that deity, largely against his own will. And even though he tries to thwart the deity's aims, he ends up working for the deity anyway.
Which strikes me as passing familiar.
Cheers
I find that to be pretty humorous, though it may not be for the character.
Hmmm. What? Could it be possible, Rinonalyrna, that you have not read the Erevis Cale/Twilight War trilogies? Paul Kemp gets a ton of well deserved respect around here. I've not seen many who disliked his work.
*emphasis mine |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:52:41
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I am reminded of the strong feelings that some readers had about Lisa Smedman's story in Realms of the Elves, because that story went with the idea that very young children who weren't yet at the age to honestly choose and follow a deity are considered "faithless" and are therefore doomed and subject to be taken by demons at death.
Of course, the real problem here is rather obvious: Lisa Smedman appears to have her own ideas of how deities "should" work in Realms and use them, whether simply ignoring whatever anyone else already happened to say or not being informed that there was a lot written on this subject in the first place. As in, compare birth and death of Qilué Veladorn... 
But this time it's not too far to stretch. One, it's not about any children, but specifically "unpledged" - which is canonical distinction and rarely is the case (IIRC, somewhere here was an answer from Ed Greenwood to this effect).
Next, the distinction of unclaimed vs. punished. As i see it, the problem with Kelemvor was that claiming petitioners who aren't welcome anywhere as "his by default" automatically wrecks the power balance, thus he isn't allowed to do it, the end.
I.e. he could simply throw out all the folk who refused divine guidance - in this case, whether any of them end up as hags' prey, adopted by asuras as their own, get lost in a walk up the Spire or arrive somewhere they're welcome and become proxies, it would be "not his business anymore". That just was not what he tried to do at the time described in one book.
So the tricky part here is that, on the one eyestalk, Elves traditionally stand slightly aside in spiritual matters on way or another, so it may be appliable to them all along, rather than the Wall, etc. - but on the other eyestalk, their gods seem to have the same deal with Ao as anyone else, so common in his domain rules should apply. On yet another eyestalk, we know almost nothing even about Ao's contract that led to ToT, and there may be an unknown amount of previous agreements handling various special cases - like that girl who got reincarnated as a half-elf in the Netheril trilogy. We just don't know. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:23:03
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
While I agree that a transplanting of a philosophical novel into the Realms was a bit strange, I don't find anything odd about an 'atheist/agnostic' living in a world where there were established churches capable of performing 'miracles' on behalf of beings who claimed to be divine.
After all, the fact that these beings are more powerful than most mortals doesn't necessarily endow them with moral authority to meddle in their lives and pass judgment on them when they die. And their essential 'divinity' in terms of the philosophical position of 'agnosticism' is as unproven as that of more traditional gods who don't tend to perform miracles.
After all, it's not as if any of these 'gods' can prove that they are the Prime Mover or that their prefered value system is superior to any other. They are simply awesomely powerful and have the ability to inflict horrific torture on people who refuse to play by their rules.
Just the existence of that threat would probably make me, as opposed to a fictional character I create, unable to sincerely worship any of them.
-Key is whether or not the average person knows about things like the Wall of the False/Faithless, and other details about the afterlife. If a person is aware that if they have no patron deities, their souls are forever consigned to "torture", I would find it odd that a person would be an atheist. They'd be presented with Pascal's Wager, but unlike the real world, they absolutely do have a vested interest in believing, because the afterlife is something very real. Given that deities benefit from worshipers and petitioners, I would think that most priests/priestesses inform worshipers to some degree about the afterlife, and how it is more prudent to believe, rather than not believe.
-And then, that aside, given that we know deities are very active in the world, individuals not throwing token worship and prayers to different deities during different kinds of activities (A farmer might pray for rain, sun, a healthy harvest, and so on.; A sailor might pray for strong winds, clear skies, calm waters, and so on) would be somewhat uncommon. Whether or not a person who 'worships' in this manner would be considered a pantheist or something else, that is up to the individual to decide, I guess. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 15:47:18
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Except for the fact that the Seldarine have turned their backs on the Eldreth Veluuthra, while Erevan hasn't done that to Elaith.
How would you tell it, what with him being no more than a lay worshipper?
Either are "stray" elves, even though in different sense.
The main difference being that Elaith knows he's not up to the mark as he sees it, but occasionally strives to reach it anyway. It's sort of the whole point about him.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think Fenmarel Mestarine would be a better choice for Elaith...
Perhaps, as Elaith is self-exiled. But it looks like "exile" and "elven elf" sides of Elaith don't intersect much. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 14:14:28
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
(...)
While I agree that a transplanting of a philosophical novel into the Realms was a bit strange, I don't find anything odd about an 'atheist/agnostic' living in a world where there were established churches capable of performing 'miracles' on behalf of beings who claimed to be divine.
After all, the fact that these beings are more powerful than most mortals doesn't necessarily endow them with moral authority to meddle in their lives and pass judgment on them when they die. And their essential 'divinity' in terms of the philosophical position of 'agnosticism' is as unproven as that of more traditional gods who don't tend to perform miracles.
(...)
This point of view is shared by a faction in the 2e Planescape setting. Gods could be extremely powerful beings, but individuals, just like powerful mages who can influence the world(s) round them. In a reality where powerful beings can manipulate the forces of nature and existence in a similar, albeit more limited way, this way of seeing things is quite reasonable. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 01:38:51
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't really want to drag this back into another "Faithless and False" discussion, but I always thought along the lines of what Erik said, which I think is actually a bit more nuanced and specific than what the rulebooks say. The Faithless actively push the gods out of their lives, not giving them any kind of foothold or credit (for example, Ivar Devarost).
I agree with that, although Ivar Devarost is strange and rather unbelivable to begin with (at least, in terms of the type of world he is residing in). The idea of a real world-style Objectivist living in the Realms is interesting, but I think the execution has mixed results.
While I agree that a transplanting of a philosophical novel into the Realms was a bit strange, I don't find anything odd about an 'atheist/agnostic' living in a world where there were established churches capable of performing 'miracles' on behalf of beings who claimed to be divine.
After all, the fact that these beings are more powerful than most mortals doesn't necessarily endow them with moral authority to meddle in their lives and pass judgment on them when they die. And their essential 'divinity' in terms of the philosophical position of 'agnosticism' is as unproven as that of more traditional gods who don't tend to perform miracles.
After all, it's not as if any of these 'gods' can prove that they are the Prime Mover or that their prefered value system is superior to any other. They are simply awesomely powerful and have the ability to inflict horrific torture on people who refuse to play by their rules.
Just the existence of that threat would probably make me, as opposed to a fictional character I create, unable to sincerely worship any of them. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 23:30:12
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
I still have a firm belief that Ivar is an Avatar or a Chosen or something of Gond
Fair enough, but I think that would kind of destroy the whole point of the character (and probably the whole series). It'd be the authorial equivalent of doing a 180 degree turn. |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 15:29:47
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't really want to drag this back into another "Faithless and False" discussion, but I always thought along the lines of what Erik said, which I think is actually a bit more nuanced and specific than what the rulebooks say. The Faithless actively push the gods out of their lives, not giving them any kind of foothold or credit (for example, Ivar Devarost).
I agree with that, although Ivar Devarost is strange and rather unbelivable to begin with (at least, in terms of the type of world he is residing in). The idea of a real world-style Objectivist living in the Realms is interesting, but I think the execution has mixed results.
I still have a firm belief that Ivar is an Avatar or a Chosen or something of Gond |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 22:24:59
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't really want to drag this back into another "Faithless and False" discussion, but I always thought along the lines of what Erik said, which I think is actually a bit more nuanced and specific than what the rulebooks say. The Faithless actively push the gods out of their lives, not giving them any kind of foothold or credit (for example, Ivar Devarost).
I agree with that, although Ivar Devarost is strange and rather unbelivable to begin with (at least, in terms of the type of world he is residing in). The idea of a real world-style Objectivist living in the Realms is interesting, but I think the execution has mixed results. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 22:21:16
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Right well, the thing is, it's not MY opinion. I rather don't think that -- I think the whole construction of things like "being faithless and false" and "limbo" (in real world terms) is wrong and cruel. Just for the same reasons you point out later in your post.
But we aren't talking about real world religion and whatnot. And we aren't *going to*. (Breathe easy, Wooly! )
Agreed--however much I'd like to, because this is a topic that interests me.
quote:
Like Erevis Cale, perhaps?
She's a bit different. She's a wizard who's not to keen on Mystra or religion in general, but she's ended up willingly serving Mystra anyway...and Mystra humors her by allowing her to think she is "in charge" of her own servitude. It's a strange relationship.
quote:
In one of my campaigns, there's a character who is a favored soul of a deity he doesn't exactly trust and love -- he's just been "chosen" by that deity, largely against his own will. And even though he tries to thwart the deity's aims, he ends up working for the deity anyway.
Which strikes me as passing familiar.
Cheers
I find that to be pretty humorous, though it may not be for the character. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:46:04
I don't really want to drag this back into another "Faithless and False" discussion, but I always thought along the lines of what Erik said, which I think is actually a bit more nuanced and specific than what the rulebooks say. The Faithless actively push the gods out of their lives, not giving them any kind of foothold or credit (for example, Ivar Devarost). Even someone that says a few minor "thank yous" here or there to various gods, without having any patron isn't Faithless. The False are those that swear that they serve one god, even lying to themselves about who and what they are (for example, Gareth Cormaeril). |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:21:33
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Hey, it's an understandable opinion to have.
Right well, the thing is, it's not MY opinion. I rather don't think that -- I think the whole construction of things like "being faithless and false" and "limbo" (in real world terms) is wrong and cruel. Just for the same reasons you point out later in your post.
But we aren't talking about real world religion and whatnot. And we aren't *going to*. (Breathe easy, Wooly! )
quote:
I am reminded of the strong feelings that some readers had about Lisa Smedman's story in Realms of the Elves, because that story went with the idea that very young children who weren't yet at the age to honestly choose and follow a deity are considered "faithless" and are therefore doomed and subject to be taken by demons at death. Needless to say, I was one of the people troubled by that idea, even though I liked the story overall.
Hmm. Indeed. And that was a very good story -- I think partly because it raised such an issue.
quote:
I agree with pretty much all your other comments, though...I like the idea of someone who serves a deity but doesn't have especially warm feelings towards said deity. In fact, I have one character who is exactly like that.
Like Erevis Cale, perhaps?
In one of my campaigns, there's a character who is a favored soul of a deity he doesn't exactly trust and love -- he's just been "chosen" by that deity, largely against his own will. And even though he tries to thwart the deity's aims, he ends up working for the deity anyway.
Which strikes me as passing familiar.
Cheers |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:11:17
Hey, it's an understandable opinion to have. It's just that I've thought about the issue enough (in regards to both real world beliefs and what happens in fantasy worlds), that I've come to have some passionate thoughts on it. I am reminded of the strong feelings that some readers had about Lisa Smedman's story in Realms of the Elves, because that story went with the idea that very young children who weren't yet at the age to honestly choose and follow a deity are considered "faithless" and are therefore doomed and subject to be taken by demons at death. Needless to say, I was one of the people troubled by that idea, even though I liked the story overall.
I agree with pretty much all your other comments, though...I like the idea of someone who serves a deity but doesn't have especially warm feelings towards said deity. In fact, I have one character who is exactly like that. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:00:26
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If you're that foolish (or tragic), I guess you deserve what happens to you. 
Well, I strongly disagree with that last part (probably because this subject touches on my own personal opinions about religion...), but then again I dislike the whole faithless and false concepts to begin with, because as Kuje once said--based on Ed Greenwood's replies--it's very difficult to be either one.
You're right -- I take it back.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I even added that note. It's totally unnecessary. Huh.
The fate of the faithless is, however, of some importance to a particular plan I may (or may not) have, which rather completely refutes it.
Cheers |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 20:40:42
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
To be faithless is to imply that you abjure/deny the gods -- cut yourself off from any patron deity. If you're that foolish (or tragic), I guess you deserve what happens to you.
Well, I strongly disagree with that last part (probably because this subject touches on my own personal opinions about religion...), but then again I dislike the whole faithless and false concepts to begin with, because as Kuje once said--based on Ed Greenwood's replies--it's very difficult to be either one. |
| Bluenose |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 15:48:11
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Divine magic:
If you have divine magic/abilities, your relationship is generally a little more cut-and-dried. Clerics have to worship a god to get his/her power. It's possible (I don't know about this -- I'd be interested to hear other opinions) that Favored Souls don't necessarily have to worship the god (heck, they might *hate* the particular god), but in a sense they are the personification of that god in the mortal world. Whether they want to be or not (they're chosen -- got little say in the matter).
On a purely technical note, I think the rules on a Favoured Soul say that they must worship a deity and can't be worshippers of a cause. Since in the Realms clerics are in the same position this doen't make them much different, but in other worlds it does. I don't think it even works for worship of a pantheon (thinking of the Sovereign Host in Eberron). I agree that a Favoured Soul who would rather have nothing to do with their god should be possible. You're selected by the god to bear a little of their power... and you're stuck with it.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 14:29:13
Glad to see we're on a similar wavelength. My explanation just comes from what I've gathered from the source material (hence the location of this here post) -- good to see I'm not off somewhere in left field.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And oddly enough as soon as I saw Erevan mentioned I thought of Twilight . . .
What's so odd about that? 
Cheers
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 20:19:45
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Far be it for me to intrude on a discussion of the brilliance that is Elaith (thanks be to Ed and Elaine for giving us this paragon of coolness), but I had some thoughts on this particular subject.
A discussion of said character goes a little far afield of my own abilities, but Erevan Ilesere is near-and-dear (as he's the patron deity of one of my own heroes), so I swung by this thread to check it out. The relationship between a mortal and a god fascinates me.
So here goes:
As I understand it, having a particular patron deity doesn't exactly mean that you're a devoted worshipper of that deity. It's more like "in your heart of hearts, you most resemble/revere that god more than another" -- kinda like a patron saint in our own Earth traditions.
At the same time, you acknowledge the rest of the gods of the setting, offering little prayers to them as appropriate (Chauntea before getting married, Tymora when you need luck, Tyr when you're going to make a just/unjust decision, etc.) In the world, you just think of your patron as more important *to you* than the others.
You may never actually pray to your patron deity, but it's still your patron deity. You have this kind of core connection that's more "soul-ful" than magical or even psychological. The patron deity represents an aspect of yourself -- an ideal you (consciously or unconsciously) live toward: like "valor" (Torm) or "justice" (Tyr) or "wrath" (Hoar) or "hatred" (Bane), etc., etc.
Erevan Ilesere (at least as far as my own heroine, Fox-at-Twilight, is concerned) represents trickery, cleverness, and wit -- staying one step ahead of everyone and everything. That seems like a pretty good deity for Elaith (who is, as brilliantly put earlier in the thread, very much an elf and part of that heritage) to follow.
Other relations between mortals and gods:
Divine magic:
If you have divine magic/abilities, your relationship is generally a little more cut-and-dried. Clerics have to worship a god to get his/her power. It's possible (I don't know about this -- I'd be interested to hear other opinions) that Favored Souls don't necessarily have to worship the god (heck, they might *hate* the particular god), but in a sense they are the personification of that god in the mortal world. Whether they want to be or not (they're chosen -- got little say in the matter).
Faithless and False:
To be faithless is to imply that you abjure/deny the gods -- cut yourself off from any patron deity. If you're that foolish (or tragic), I guess you deserve what happens to you.
Being false is denying that very impulse deep within yourself -- betraying yourself just as much as betraying a god.
Further Questions:
Does Elaith do anything overtly religious? Does he pray? (I ask because I don't know -- it's been a long time.)
I wonder.
Cheers
Wow, Erik, that pretty much sums up how I would explain such things my own self. And oddly enough as soon as I saw Erevan mentioned I thought of Twilight . . .
As far as hating your divine patron, I had a person playing a cleric/necromancer of Velsharoon that did an excellent job of playing the characters as someone that felt that Velsharoon was what made him what he was, what made him worthwhile when he had been a failure at everything else, and yet still hated his god for what he was . . . it was an interesting portrayal, to say the least. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 19:18:28
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Except for the fact that the Seldarine have turned their backs on the Eldreth Veluuthra, while Erevan hasn't done that to Elaith.
If by this you mean the Seldarine don't grant the Eldreth Veluuthra any clerical spells, it should be pointed out that if Elaith were to become a cleric then he also wouldn't receive any spells, since he isn't within one alignment step of any of the elven deities. Of course he could take the Heretic of the Faith feat, but so could an Eldreth Veluuthra cleric. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 17:39:04
Far be it for me to intrude on a discussion of the brilliance that is Elaith (thanks be to Ed and Elaine for giving us this paragon of coolness), but I had some thoughts on this particular subject.
A discussion of said character goes a little far afield of my own abilities, but Erevan Ilesere is near-and-dear (as he's the patron deity of one of my own heroes), so I swung by this thread to check it out. The relationship between a mortal and a god fascinates me.
So here goes:
As I understand it, having a particular patron deity doesn't exactly mean that you're a devoted worshipper of that deity. It's more like "in your heart of hearts, you most resemble/revere that god more than another" -- kinda like a patron saint in our own Earth traditions.
At the same time, you acknowledge the rest of the gods of the setting, offering little prayers to them as appropriate (Chauntea before getting married, Tymora when you need luck, Tyr when you're going to make a just/unjust decision, etc.) In the world, you just think of your patron as more important *to you* than the others.
You may never actually pray to your patron deity, but it's still your patron deity. You have this kind of core connection that's more "soul-ful" than magical or even psychological. The patron deity represents an aspect of yourself -- an ideal you (consciously or unconsciously) live toward: like "valor" (Torm) or "justice" (Tyr) or "wrath" (Hoar) or "hatred" (Bane), etc., etc.
Erevan Ilesere (at least as far as my own heroine, Fox-at-Twilight, is concerned) represents trickery, cleverness, and wit -- staying one step ahead of everyone and everything. That seems like a pretty good deity for Elaith (who is, as brilliantly put earlier in the thread, very much an elf and part of that heritage) to follow.
Other relations between mortals and gods:
Divine magic:
If you have divine magic/abilities, your relationship is generally a little more cut-and-dried. Clerics have to worship a god to get his/her power. It's possible (I don't know about this -- I'd be interested to hear other opinions) that Favored Souls don't necessarily have to worship the god (heck, they might *hate* the particular god), but in a sense they are the personification of that god in the mortal world. Whether they want to be or not (they're chosen -- got little say in the matter).
Faithless and False:
To be faithless is to imply that you abjure/deny the gods -- cut yourself off from any patron deity. That seems pretty difficult to me in the Realms.
Being false (forsaking a god you claim to worship) is denying that very impulse deep within yourself -- betraying yourself just as much as betraying a god.
Further Questions:
Does Elaith do anything overtly religious? Does he pray? (I ask because I don't know -- it's been a long time.)
I wonder.
Cheers
EDITED for clarification and to remove a certain stupidity. Thanks Lyrna!  |
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