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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:11:05
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Just looking for a quick confirm/deny here - I vaguely recall someone on a different forum once posted an excerpt of Elaith Craulnober's statistics from Waterdeep and the North, wherein he was described as "NE Erevan Ilesere" or something along those lines.
A) Is this tidbit actually in Waterdeep and the North (or any sourcebook for that matter)?
B) If true, am I right in thinking it means Erevan Ilesere is his patron deity?
Thanks.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:18:44
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| Yes and yes. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:28:52
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Thanks again - that was a lightning reply! 
Granted, it doesn't seem that Elaith is exactly an exemplar of the faith, but I can buy that there's some flexibility on the matter. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Thanks again - that was a lightning reply!
Granted, it doesn't seem that Elaith is exactly an exemplar of the faith, but I can buy that there's some flexibility on the matter.
Well, it's not like Elaith is a divine caster, so I have no issue with him following Erevan. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 23:34:31
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| Right--lay worshippers don't need to be, and often are not, "exemplars" of the faith. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 23:59:25
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| I never said they have to be. It just seemed like there was something of a disparity, I guess you could call it. Yes, Erevan's the elven god of rogues, and yes he looks to be a logical choice (perhaps the only logical choice given Elaith's upbringing), but he comes off as a goofball, somewhat flaky, pranks-and-parties type while Elaith is... well... eh. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 01:17:07
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| True, but Elaith is definitely sneaky, and does any elven god define sneakiness the way Erevan does? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 01:27:36
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If the Eldreth Veluuthra (a group of elves who believe humans are a disease which needs to be wiped out) can revere the Seldarine, I think Elaith can too  . |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37013 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 03:42:55
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I think Fenmarel Mestarine would be a better choice for Elaith...
But it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Elaith would worship a member of the Seldarine. Elaith may be evil, ruthless, and vindictive, but before all that, he is an elf. He may not dance happily in the trees, but he has an elf's appreciation for nature, and certain elven customs are very important to him. He's like a dark mirror to the average elf: he still reveres many of the same things, but he doesn't let anything but his own honor come between him and something he wants.
I think a lot of people focus on the evil in Elaith, and overlook his elven nature... It seems that the concept of an evil elf is so shocking that people eventually forget the elf part. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 19:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
If the Eldreth Veluuthra (a group of elves who believe humans are a disease which needs to be wiped out) can revere the Seldarine, I think Elaith can too .
Except for the fact that the Seldarine have turned their backs on the Eldreth Veluuthra, while Erevan hasn't done that to Elaith. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 17:39:04
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Far be it for me to intrude on a discussion of the brilliance that is Elaith (thanks be to Ed and Elaine for giving us this paragon of coolness), but I had some thoughts on this particular subject.
A discussion of said character goes a little far afield of my own abilities, but Erevan Ilesere is near-and-dear (as he's the patron deity of one of my own heroes), so I swung by this thread to check it out. The relationship between a mortal and a god fascinates me.
So here goes:
As I understand it, having a particular patron deity doesn't exactly mean that you're a devoted worshipper of that deity. It's more like "in your heart of hearts, you most resemble/revere that god more than another" -- kinda like a patron saint in our own Earth traditions.
At the same time, you acknowledge the rest of the gods of the setting, offering little prayers to them as appropriate (Chauntea before getting married, Tymora when you need luck, Tyr when you're going to make a just/unjust decision, etc.) In the world, you just think of your patron as more important *to you* than the others.
You may never actually pray to your patron deity, but it's still your patron deity. You have this kind of core connection that's more "soul-ful" than magical or even psychological. The patron deity represents an aspect of yourself -- an ideal you (consciously or unconsciously) live toward: like "valor" (Torm) or "justice" (Tyr) or "wrath" (Hoar) or "hatred" (Bane), etc., etc.
Erevan Ilesere (at least as far as my own heroine, Fox-at-Twilight, is concerned) represents trickery, cleverness, and wit -- staying one step ahead of everyone and everything. That seems like a pretty good deity for Elaith (who is, as brilliantly put earlier in the thread, very much an elf and part of that heritage) to follow.
Other relations between mortals and gods:
Divine magic:
If you have divine magic/abilities, your relationship is generally a little more cut-and-dried. Clerics have to worship a god to get his/her power. It's possible (I don't know about this -- I'd be interested to hear other opinions) that Favored Souls don't necessarily have to worship the god (heck, they might *hate* the particular god), but in a sense they are the personification of that god in the mortal world. Whether they want to be or not (they're chosen -- got little say in the matter).
Faithless and False:
To be faithless is to imply that you abjure/deny the gods -- cut yourself off from any patron deity. That seems pretty difficult to me in the Realms.
Being false (forsaking a god you claim to worship) is denying that very impulse deep within yourself -- betraying yourself just as much as betraying a god.
Further Questions:
Does Elaith do anything overtly religious? Does he pray? (I ask because I don't know -- it's been a long time.)
I wonder.
Cheers
EDITED for clarification and to remove a certain stupidity. Thanks Lyrna! |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 14 Mar 2007 21:02:53 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 19:18:28
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Except for the fact that the Seldarine have turned their backs on the Eldreth Veluuthra, while Erevan hasn't done that to Elaith.
If by this you mean the Seldarine don't grant the Eldreth Veluuthra any clerical spells, it should be pointed out that if Elaith were to become a cleric then he also wouldn't receive any spells, since he isn't within one alignment step of any of the elven deities. Of course he could take the Heretic of the Faith feat, but so could an Eldreth Veluuthra cleric. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 13 Mar 2007 19:19:08 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 20:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Far be it for me to intrude on a discussion of the brilliance that is Elaith (thanks be to Ed and Elaine for giving us this paragon of coolness), but I had some thoughts on this particular subject.
A discussion of said character goes a little far afield of my own abilities, but Erevan Ilesere is near-and-dear (as he's the patron deity of one of my own heroes), so I swung by this thread to check it out. The relationship between a mortal and a god fascinates me.
So here goes:
As I understand it, having a particular patron deity doesn't exactly mean that you're a devoted worshipper of that deity. It's more like "in your heart of hearts, you most resemble/revere that god more than another" -- kinda like a patron saint in our own Earth traditions.
At the same time, you acknowledge the rest of the gods of the setting, offering little prayers to them as appropriate (Chauntea before getting married, Tymora when you need luck, Tyr when you're going to make a just/unjust decision, etc.) In the world, you just think of your patron as more important *to you* than the others.
You may never actually pray to your patron deity, but it's still your patron deity. You have this kind of core connection that's more "soul-ful" than magical or even psychological. The patron deity represents an aspect of yourself -- an ideal you (consciously or unconsciously) live toward: like "valor" (Torm) or "justice" (Tyr) or "wrath" (Hoar) or "hatred" (Bane), etc., etc.
Erevan Ilesere (at least as far as my own heroine, Fox-at-Twilight, is concerned) represents trickery, cleverness, and wit -- staying one step ahead of everyone and everything. That seems like a pretty good deity for Elaith (who is, as brilliantly put earlier in the thread, very much an elf and part of that heritage) to follow.
Other relations between mortals and gods:
Divine magic:
If you have divine magic/abilities, your relationship is generally a little more cut-and-dried. Clerics have to worship a god to get his/her power. It's possible (I don't know about this -- I'd be interested to hear other opinions) that Favored Souls don't necessarily have to worship the god (heck, they might *hate* the particular god), but in a sense they are the personification of that god in the mortal world. Whether they want to be or not (they're chosen -- got little say in the matter).
Faithless and False:
To be faithless is to imply that you abjure/deny the gods -- cut yourself off from any patron deity. If you're that foolish (or tragic), I guess you deserve what happens to you. 
Being false is denying that very impulse deep within yourself -- betraying yourself just as much as betraying a god.
Further Questions:
Does Elaith do anything overtly religious? Does he pray? (I ask because I don't know -- it's been a long time.)
I wonder.
Cheers
Wow, Erik, that pretty much sums up how I would explain such things my own self. And oddly enough as soon as I saw Erevan mentioned I thought of Twilight . . .
As far as hating your divine patron, I had a person playing a cleric/necromancer of Velsharoon that did an excellent job of playing the characters as someone that felt that Velsharoon was what made him what he was, what made him worthwhile when he had been a failure at everything else, and yet still hated his god for what he was . . . it was an interesting portrayal, to say the least. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 14:29:13
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Glad to see we're on a similar wavelength. My explanation just comes from what I've gathered from the source material (hence the location of this here post) -- good to see I'm not off somewhere in left field.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And oddly enough as soon as I saw Erevan mentioned I thought of Twilight . . .
What's so odd about that? 
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 15:48:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Divine magic:
If you have divine magic/abilities, your relationship is generally a little more cut-and-dried. Clerics have to worship a god to get his/her power. It's possible (I don't know about this -- I'd be interested to hear other opinions) that Favored Souls don't necessarily have to worship the god (heck, they might *hate* the particular god), but in a sense they are the personification of that god in the mortal world. Whether they want to be or not (they're chosen -- got little say in the matter).
On a purely technical note, I think the rules on a Favoured Soul say that they must worship a deity and can't be worshippers of a cause. Since in the Realms clerics are in the same position this doen't make them much different, but in other worlds it does. I don't think it even works for worship of a pantheon (thinking of the Sovereign Host in Eberron). I agree that a Favoured Soul who would rather have nothing to do with their god should be possible. You're selected by the god to bear a little of their power... and you're stuck with it.
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These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 20:40:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
To be faithless is to imply that you abjure/deny the gods -- cut yourself off from any patron deity. If you're that foolish (or tragic), I guess you deserve what happens to you.
Well, I strongly disagree with that last part (probably because this subject touches on my own personal opinions about religion...), but then again I dislike the whole faithless and false concepts to begin with, because as Kuje once said--based on Ed Greenwood's replies--it's very difficult to be either one. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Mar 2007 20:41:18 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If you're that foolish (or tragic), I guess you deserve what happens to you.
Well, I strongly disagree with that last part (probably because this subject touches on my own personal opinions about religion...), but then again I dislike the whole faithless and false concepts to begin with, because as Kuje once said--based on Ed Greenwood's replies--it's very difficult to be either one.
You're right -- I take it back.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I even added that note. It's totally unnecessary. Huh.
The fate of the faithless is, however, of some importance to a particular plan I may (or may not) have, which rather completely refutes it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:11:17
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Hey, it's an understandable opinion to have. It's just that I've thought about the issue enough (in regards to both real world beliefs and what happens in fantasy worlds), that I've come to have some passionate thoughts on it. I am reminded of the strong feelings that some readers had about Lisa Smedman's story in Realms of the Elves, because that story went with the idea that very young children who weren't yet at the age to honestly choose and follow a deity are considered "faithless" and are therefore doomed and subject to be taken by demons at death. Needless to say, I was one of the people troubled by that idea, even though I liked the story overall.
I agree with pretty much all your other comments, though...I like the idea of someone who serves a deity but doesn't have especially warm feelings towards said deity. In fact, I have one character who is exactly like that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Mar 2007 21:14:43 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Hey, it's an understandable opinion to have.
Right well, the thing is, it's not MY opinion. I rather don't think that -- I think the whole construction of things like "being faithless and false" and "limbo" (in real world terms) is wrong and cruel. Just for the same reasons you point out later in your post.
But we aren't talking about real world religion and whatnot. And we aren't *going to*. (Breathe easy, Wooly! )
quote:
I am reminded of the strong feelings that some readers had about Lisa Smedman's story in Realms of the Elves, because that story went with the idea that very young children who weren't yet at the age to honestly choose and follow a deity are considered "faithless" and are therefore doomed and subject to be taken by demons at death. Needless to say, I was one of the people troubled by that idea, even though I liked the story overall.
Hmm. Indeed. And that was a very good story -- I think partly because it raised such an issue.
quote:
I agree with pretty much all your other comments, though...I like the idea of someone who serves a deity but doesn't have especially warm feelings towards said deity. In fact, I have one character who is exactly like that.
Like Erevis Cale, perhaps? 
In one of my campaigns, there's a character who is a favored soul of a deity he doesn't exactly trust and love -- he's just been "chosen" by that deity, largely against his own will. And even though he tries to thwart the deity's aims, he ends up working for the deity anyway.
Which strikes me as passing familiar.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 21:46:04
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| I don't really want to drag this back into another "Faithless and False" discussion, but I always thought along the lines of what Erik said, which I think is actually a bit more nuanced and specific than what the rulebooks say. The Faithless actively push the gods out of their lives, not giving them any kind of foothold or credit (for example, Ivar Devarost). Even someone that says a few minor "thank yous" here or there to various gods, without having any patron isn't Faithless. The False are those that swear that they serve one god, even lying to themselves about who and what they are (for example, Gareth Cormaeril). |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 22:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Right well, the thing is, it's not MY opinion. I rather don't think that -- I think the whole construction of things like "being faithless and false" and "limbo" (in real world terms) is wrong and cruel. Just for the same reasons you point out later in your post.
But we aren't talking about real world religion and whatnot. And we aren't *going to*. (Breathe easy, Wooly! )
Agreed--however much I'd like to, because this is a topic that interests me.
quote:
Like Erevis Cale, perhaps?
She's a bit different. She's a wizard who's not to keen on Mystra or religion in general, but she's ended up willingly serving Mystra anyway...and Mystra humors her by allowing her to think she is "in charge" of her own servitude. It's a strange relationship.
quote:
In one of my campaigns, there's a character who is a favored soul of a deity he doesn't exactly trust and love -- he's just been "chosen" by that deity, largely against his own will. And even though he tries to thwart the deity's aims, he ends up working for the deity anyway.
Which strikes me as passing familiar.
Cheers
I find that to be pretty humorous, though it may not be for the character. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2007 : 22:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't really want to drag this back into another "Faithless and False" discussion, but I always thought along the lines of what Erik said, which I think is actually a bit more nuanced and specific than what the rulebooks say. The Faithless actively push the gods out of their lives, not giving them any kind of foothold or credit (for example, Ivar Devarost).
I agree with that, although Ivar Devarost is strange and rather unbelivable to begin with (at least, in terms of the type of world he is residing in). The idea of a real world-style Objectivist living in the Realms is interesting, but I think the execution has mixed results. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 15:29:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't really want to drag this back into another "Faithless and False" discussion, but I always thought along the lines of what Erik said, which I think is actually a bit more nuanced and specific than what the rulebooks say. The Faithless actively push the gods out of their lives, not giving them any kind of foothold or credit (for example, Ivar Devarost).
I agree with that, although Ivar Devarost is strange and rather unbelivable to begin with (at least, in terms of the type of world he is residing in). The idea of a real world-style Objectivist living in the Realms is interesting, but I think the execution has mixed results.
I still have a firm belief that Ivar is an Avatar or a Chosen or something of Gond |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris� seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 23:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
I still have a firm belief that Ivar is an Avatar or a Chosen or something of Gond
Fair enough, but I think that would kind of destroy the whole point of the character (and probably the whole series). It'd be the authorial equivalent of doing a 180 degree turn. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 19 Mar 2007 23:30:46 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 01:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't really want to drag this back into another "Faithless and False" discussion, but I always thought along the lines of what Erik said, which I think is actually a bit more nuanced and specific than what the rulebooks say. The Faithless actively push the gods out of their lives, not giving them any kind of foothold or credit (for example, Ivar Devarost).
I agree with that, although Ivar Devarost is strange and rather unbelivable to begin with (at least, in terms of the type of world he is residing in). The idea of a real world-style Objectivist living in the Realms is interesting, but I think the execution has mixed results.
While I agree that a transplanting of a philosophical novel into the Realms was a bit strange, I don't find anything odd about an 'atheist/agnostic' living in a world where there were established churches capable of performing 'miracles' on behalf of beings who claimed to be divine.
After all, the fact that these beings are more powerful than most mortals doesn't necessarily endow them with moral authority to meddle in their lives and pass judgment on them when they die. And their essential 'divinity' in terms of the philosophical position of 'agnosticism' is as unproven as that of more traditional gods who don't tend to perform miracles.
After all, it's not as if any of these 'gods' can prove that they are the Prime Mover or that their prefered value system is superior to any other. They are simply awesomely powerful and have the ability to inflict horrific torture on people who refuse to play by their rules.
Just the existence of that threat would probably make me, as opposed to a fictional character I create, unable to sincerely worship any of them. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 14:14:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
(...)
While I agree that a transplanting of a philosophical novel into the Realms was a bit strange, I don't find anything odd about an 'atheist/agnostic' living in a world where there were established churches capable of performing 'miracles' on behalf of beings who claimed to be divine.
After all, the fact that these beings are more powerful than most mortals doesn't necessarily endow them with moral authority to meddle in their lives and pass judgment on them when they die. And their essential 'divinity' in terms of the philosophical position of 'agnosticism' is as unproven as that of more traditional gods who don't tend to perform miracles.
(...)
This point of view is shared by a faction in the 2e Planescape setting. Gods could be extremely powerful beings, but individuals, just like powerful mages who can influence the world(s) round them. In a reality where powerful beings can manipulate the forces of nature and existence in a similar, albeit more limited way, this way of seeing things is quite reasonable. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2530 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 15:47:18
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Except for the fact that the Seldarine have turned their backs on the Eldreth Veluuthra, while Erevan hasn't done that to Elaith.
How would you tell it, what with him being no more than a lay worshipper?
Either are "stray" elves, even though in different sense.
The main difference being that Elaith knows he's not up to the mark as he sees it, but occasionally strives to reach it anyway. It's sort of the whole point about him.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think Fenmarel Mestarine would be a better choice for Elaith...
Perhaps, as Elaith is self-exiled. But it looks like "exile" and "elven elf" sides of Elaith don't intersect much. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
While I agree that a transplanting of a philosophical novel into the Realms was a bit strange, I don't find anything odd about an 'atheist/agnostic' living in a world where there were established churches capable of performing 'miracles' on behalf of beings who claimed to be divine.
After all, the fact that these beings are more powerful than most mortals doesn't necessarily endow them with moral authority to meddle in their lives and pass judgment on them when they die. And their essential 'divinity' in terms of the philosophical position of 'agnosticism' is as unproven as that of more traditional gods who don't tend to perform miracles.
After all, it's not as if any of these 'gods' can prove that they are the Prime Mover or that their prefered value system is superior to any other. They are simply awesomely powerful and have the ability to inflict horrific torture on people who refuse to play by their rules.
Just the existence of that threat would probably make me, as opposed to a fictional character I create, unable to sincerely worship any of them.
-Key is whether or not the average person knows about things like the Wall of the False/Faithless, and other details about the afterlife. If a person is aware that if they have no patron deities, their souls are forever consigned to "torture", I would find it odd that a person would be an atheist. They'd be presented with Pascal's Wager, but unlike the real world, they absolutely do have a vested interest in believing, because the afterlife is something very real. Given that deities benefit from worshipers and petitioners, I would think that most priests/priestesses inform worshipers to some degree about the afterlife, and how it is more prudent to believe, rather than not believe.
-And then, that aside, given that we know deities are very active in the world, individuals not throwing token worship and prayers to different deities during different kinds of activities (A farmer might pray for rain, sun, a healthy harvest, and so on.; A sailor might pray for strong winds, clear skies, calm waters, and so on) would be somewhat uncommon. Whether or not a person who 'worships' in this manner would be considered a pantheist or something else, that is up to the individual to decide, I guess. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2530 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I am reminded of the strong feelings that some readers had about Lisa Smedman's story in Realms of the Elves, because that story went with the idea that very young children who weren't yet at the age to honestly choose and follow a deity are considered "faithless" and are therefore doomed and subject to be taken by demons at death.
Of course, the real problem here is rather obvious: Lisa Smedman appears to have her own ideas of how deities "should" work in Realms and use them, whether simply ignoring whatever anyone else already happened to say or not being informed that there was a lot written on this subject in the first place. As in, compare birth and death of Qilué Veladorn... 
But this time it's not too far to stretch. One, it's not about any children, but specifically "unpledged" - which is canonical distinction and rarely is the case (IIRC, somewhere here was an answer from Ed Greenwood to this effect).
Next, the distinction of unclaimed vs. punished. As i see it, the problem with Kelemvor was that claiming petitioners who aren't welcome anywhere as "his by default" automatically wrecks the power balance, thus he isn't allowed to do it, the end.
I.e. he could simply throw out all the folk who refused divine guidance - in this case, whether any of them end up as hags' prey, adopted by asuras as their own, get lost in a walk up the Spire or arrive somewhere they're welcome and become proxies, it would be "not his business anymore". That just was not what he tried to do at the time described in one book.
So the tricky part here is that, on the one eyestalk, Elves traditionally stand slightly aside in spiritual matters on way or another, so it may be appliable to them all along, rather than the Wall, etc. - but on the other eyestalk, their gods seem to have the same deal with Ao as anyone else, so common in his domain rules should apply. On yet another eyestalk, we know almost nothing even about Ao's contract that led to ToT, and there may be an unknown amount of previous agreements handling various special cases - like that girl who got reincarnated as a half-elf in the Netheril trilogy. We just don't know. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 00:38:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Right well, the thing is, it's not MY opinion. I rather don't think that -- I think the whole construction of things like "being faithless and false" and "limbo" (in real world terms) is wrong and cruel. Just for the same reasons you point out later in your post.
But we aren't talking about real world religion and whatnot. And we aren't *going to*. (Breathe easy, Wooly! )
Agreed--however much I'd like to, because this is a topic that interests me.
quote:
Like Erevis Cale, perhaps?
She's a bit different. She's a wizard who's not to keen on Mystra or religion in general, but she's ended up willingly serving Mystra anyway...and Mystra humors her by allowing her to think she is "in charge" of her own servitude. It's a strange relationship.
quote:
In one of my campaigns, there's a character who is a favored soul of a deity he doesn't exactly trust and love -- he's just been "chosen" by that deity, largely against his own will. And even though he tries to thwart the deity's aims, he ends up working for the deity anyway.
Which strikes me as passing familiar.
Cheers
I find that to be pretty humorous, though it may not be for the character.
Hmmm. What? Could it be possible, Rinonalyrna, that you have not read the Erevis Cale/Twilight War trilogies? Paul Kemp gets a ton of well deserved respect around here. I've not seen many who disliked his work.
*emphasis mine |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 14 Mar 2012 00:47:47 |
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Elaith and Erevan
