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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 16:29:32
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I'm not entirely sure but I think there was mention of potential changes to the Bard class abilities made on the WotC D&D forums. There wasn't anything specific mentioned, so I really don't know.
Although I have always felt the Bardic Music ability is a little weak. I had considered revamping the entire mechanic and seeing what I come up with. Your Mass Charm suggestion is a good idea though. I agree with you, that it is a shame that the Bard's spells work more effectively than his actual class abilities. The Bardic Music should really be more powerful.
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 01:13:55
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Almost sort of a spoiler (Condemnation)...!!!!
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I've always felt that at higher levels, the bard's music should be just about able to convince anyone of anything. I think they should sort of become "rock stars" - idols of sorts as their skills improve, and their abilities as musicians/poets/etc should reflect this. As people-experts, spells such as "Know Alignment" should be available as abilities, along with stuff like "Hold Person" and honest to god "Charm" spells. This would make the bard much more effective.
An example of a well-done bard is be in the novel Condemnation.....the drow bard in there is very impressive, and her songs are incredibly powerful.....
Besides, the fascination ability is basically akin to jumping up and down and saying "look at me! woo-hoo, over here, Mr. Necromancer! Yo-hoo!", which I am pretty sure anyone could do....
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 06:06:53
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| I've been thinking of looking into the bard's spells and abilities myself. Maybe, between me and Sage, we can give the Wizards a run for their gold pieces. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 08:05:10
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If you are willing to work on something like this Bookwyrm, just let me know and we can get some idea rolling. Of course, ArionElenim, if you want to contribute something as well, perhaps we could really design something great.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 21:02:19
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| Sounds like a wondrous plan....I'll get right on it and see what I can't come up with..... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 07:23:13
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| I don't mind working on it. What did you have in mind? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 11:05:21
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Well, I was thinking that we would probably have to start working from the basics of the class up all the way through stats, features and class abilities. I am willing to put my revised Rogue stats project on hold for this. I guess the first thing we should be asking ourselves is, what type of Bard class we want?. What is it about the current stats and class features that generate the opinions posted in this scroll.
I think it centers around what was originally said by Arion and myself. The Bardic Music ability seems to be the main problem.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 18:06:55
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Since this is rapidly turning it the "How can we make a better bard?" topic, I'll chime in.
Instead of the standard bardic music abilities, meaning every bard has the same ones, the bard can choose a spell-like effect of appropriate type and level. You could make bard quasi-kits. Each bard picks a certain type of bard-appropriate magic (e.g. illusion, divination, enchantment) and his musical abilities mimic certain spells from that "school". I can't say right now what spells would be good choices. That's what play-testing is for.
I would also elminate general "bardic knowledge" and say that the bard needs to make his Knowledge <whatever> skill roll, but if he does, he knows more about subject X than a non-bard would. Obvioulsy, the DM can tack on additional DC levels to get to the "bardic knowledge" level about a certain thing.
Isn't it the case that only rogues can pick lock of DC 20 or higher? Assuming that's true, the bardic knowledge thing would work in a similar fashion. Say it's DC 20 for anyone using Knowledge History to know that Zankor the Orc lord used a mighty waraxe to slay Gurgolo the Hill Giant cheiftain in 1209. Ther DM adds 5 (or 10) to the DC to know that the waraxe's name is Krikaller (and let's say that's ancient Illuskan for "giant slayer") and that the weapon was buried with Zankor, and that only a bard has a chance to know this, no matter how high a non-bard's Knowledge History skill is. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 18 Jun 2003 21:36:28 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 19:43:27
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branmakmuffin
quote:
Each bard picks of certain type of bard-appropriate magic (e.g. illusion, divination, enchantment) and his musical abilities mimic certain spells from that "school". I can't say right now what spells would be good choices. That's what play-testing is for.
That's a really interesting idea branmakmuffin. It also may make the whole reworking a little easier as well, since nearly all of the Bard's abilities and features could be crafted using the same general principle.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 21:44:52
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Aaaagh, you quoted me before I could correct my typo!
This could lead to essentially "specialist bards", which I think is better anyway.
There could (maybe should?) be specialist rangers based on terrain type/geographic area, making the choices of perferred enemy and what kind of terrain in which he can live off the land more logical. If a ranger is from Calimshan and has never been north of Cormyr, taking yeti's as a perferred enemy makes little sense. Of course, I imagine most DMs impose limitations like this without needing it codified in a rulebook.
I could see a similar thing with druids: "I'm a desert druid. I have an affinity with 'hot' things." |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 07:19:53
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Hmm. When I saw your name as the last poster to this thread, Bran, I was sure I'd find a post saying "Why are you messing with this, blah blah blah . . . ." I say this because I've just been to two where you've been extremely argumentative and confrontational. Good thing you reminded me that that isn't your normal personality.
Alright, now that my quasi-appology is out of the way, let's go on to the new subject of this thread.
I think the idea of specialists in anything is a good idea. Of course, not all of them are necessary to spell out. I'll take an example. If I ever played a fighter (don't know if I will, since I don't know any groups to join that I could get to), I'd play one that speciallized in archery. I'd love to see a quantified archer specialty "school" but there're two problems with that. One, there're two prestige classes I know of that enhance an archer-character already. Second, what other kind of first-level fighter specialist would there be? There would have to be at least two before we could do that.
As well, I think that there should be a specialist-type for druids; after all, wouldn't sea-elves have druids? And, as you said, a druid might come from a dessert. Of course, that would be difficult to quantify, so perhaps, as you said, it should be left to the DM's own house rules and his/her negotiations with the player.
Okay, on to bards. I think to really work the idea of the specialist bard out right, you need to take a step back and think. What is a bard? First and formost, a bard is an entertainer, not a spellcaster. So, I think, we should design the specialty bardic schools (we need another word for it!) around the type of bard.
Obviously, there's the singer. Then there's the one who can't sing, but can play. Or the one who is a gifted storyteller. You could even do a dancer. However, I can't think of any immediate attributes of each that would cause a player to pick one over another. However, if we do pick this type, there could really be no such thing as a non-specialist like there is for the wizard class. This sort of bard would have to specialize.
Then for the spells. Perhaps this one would be closer to the wizard class's school-idea. The player of a bard would pick a certain way that bard would affect an audience. There're performers whose intent it is to awe and entertain. (Say, the Riverdance company.) Then there are those who want to rile things up, get people exited. (I can't think of any, but I'm sure there are a lot of bands like that.) Not necessarily bad, but not the kind that leads to a complacent audience. Or the opposite, the ones that're in the background, subtly shifting attitudes but not directly involving themselves.
What do you all think? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 12:31:51
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This is great Bookwyrm, and it is essentially the way I was thinking of going. I think, like I stated in my second-last post, and now again just like you said, determining what we want the Bard to represent should be the focus for the whole reworking.
I especially like the specialist Bard idea, because it allows those players who may not see these modifications as interesting, the availability to still stay with something close to what the Bard was.
Bookwyrm said -
quote:
Obviously, there's the singer. Then there's the one who can't sing, but can play. Or the one who is a gifted storyteller. You could even do a dancer. However, I can't think of any immediate attributes of each that would cause a player to pick one over another. However, if we do pick this type, there could really be no such thing as a non-specialist like there is for the wizard class. This sort of bard would have to specialize.
I think maybe a series of fan-created skills and class feats that specialise in these different specific areas of Bard disciplines maybe enough to provide the player with enough of a reason to select a Bard specialist that they prefer.
I have a few other suggestions, but I am now pressed for time. I will try and add some more thoughts later.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 16:17:11
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Another thought, which I'm sure has come up in many DMs' house rules, is the skill with a martial weapon. Why? Because the designers at WotC think all bards should be able to use rapiers? I think it's arbitrary. Taking that away would be a way to partially compensate for beefing up the bard song effects. Taking away armor and shield proficiency (if they have any) would be another way.
Bookwyrm, that is my normal personality. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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3.5 Tidbits from DM #309
