| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 17:09:13
|
| I don't have any problems with the concept of Shar. I just hate that since 3E, she has been steadily getting more and more prominent. She went from being unnoticed in the background to the main source of evil in the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 17:23:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't have any problems with the concept of Shar. I just hate that since 3E, she has been steadily getting more and more prominent. She went from being unnoticed in the background to the main source of evil in the Realms.
That's more or less my opinion as well. As I believe I said earlier, she (like Cyric) has a place in the Realms and I wouldn't want her to die just because I think she's being misused.
But I definitely believe she is being misused and has become overly prominent. There shouldn't be a "main evil god" in the Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
DorianAdricus
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 17:36:21
|
I totally agree with both of you, Shar has DEFINTELY been overplayed in WotC's Realms. She's "cool", and "gothy" and all, but they've stripped out the feminine mystique and subtlety of her worship and replaced it with a more brutish, obvious approach which doesn't do her any justice as the crone/Lilith of the Realms. The only thing that they've done that makes any sense, at least to me, is to have her using Cyric as her weapon. He makes a perfect pawn/Mordred/champion for her, in his bitterness and venal rage. (Not that I agree at all with the implementation, but that's another story  ).
As for the actual intent of this thread, I'd also like to go on record as saying that there should be a "live and let live" philosophy to the gods. I think they should all be there for everyone to use or discard as they will. Minimalist approaches don't do anyone any good in the long run. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 17:43:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by DorianAdricus
As for the actual intent of this thread, I'd also like to go on record as saying that there should be a "live and let live" philosophy to the gods. I think they should all be there for everyone to use or discard as they will. Minimalist approaches don't do anyone any good in the long run.
Totally agreed, as I see it that was something that was always meant to apply to the Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 01:15:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Very good points, but there is a bondage/SM element to Loviatar's worship, too (to be fair, though, it's probably just played up over other elements of her church by fans because it's "kinky").
Truthfully, considering that she (Loviatar) numbers both Talona and Shar among her enemies, I'd like to see how to handle neutral or even "evil, but on our side" Loviatans in play.
(My characters usually wind up facing the Mother of Plagues and Lady of Night and their schemes at various points. Be nice to have some help for a change!) |
|
|
|
Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 12:07:30
|
Garagos needs to go. Tempus needs to step up and take care of him, needs to assume his portfolio, even if he doesn't like those aspects of war that Garagos stands for. And if he does not have the stones do it, then perhaps Tempus is the one that needs to take the cut. When following a god of war, you need to be sure he rules over ALL aspects of war, not just the one he is comfortable with.
And of the all the deities that I could think to bring back, Moander is the one that stands forth in my mind. He was a god of unapproachable, unreasoning evil. A perfect counter to the greater dieties of good. Of all the gods, his avatar The Abomination, was perhaps one of the more frightening "creatures" that the Realms has produced. A giant compost pile, the size of a mountain, with exceptional intelligence, intent on your death.
Once again, just my opinion. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 13:24:45
|
I like the abundance of gods in FR. I think the people that feel there are way too many just look at the long list and roll their eyes at the idea of a hundred or more temples in every city. I enjoy how different regions hold different dieties in high regard and ignore others outright. Sure, its become one gigantic pantheon merged together from 4 or more and as a whole covers a significant area of land... but its not over done, some people just over emphasize the size alone and don't consider the more subtle intent.
I don't think any gods should die or be killed off... they should only be forgotten until such a time as they are useful again. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 15:50:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Truthfully, considering that she (Loviatar) numbers both Talona and Shar among her enemies, I'd like to see how to handle neutral or even "evil, but on our side" Loviatans in play.
Are you up for reading a novel? Maiden of Pain has a LN priestess of Loviatar for a protagonist. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 19:56:25
|
| Back in 2nd edition, a DM I played under made made the major antagonist of our long-running campaign an anti-paladin (was a fighter who dual-classed into priest) of Loviatar. We hated him more than all of the nastiness in Undermountain. I'd say the best part was how he was role-played in combat encounters... as long as he wasn't in danger of being overwhelmed, he'd vocalize his enjoyment at being struck by spell or sword. He didn't get really, really angry until a later encounter where someone's cleric used charm person or mammal on him and convinced him that healing his wounds was for the best. The pleasant sensations repulsed him and drove him off for awhile... then we learned to stop catering to his desire to be hurt and started using non-lethal means to subdue or drive him away. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 23:40:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Garagos needs to go. Tempus needs to step up and take care of him, needs to assume his portfolio, even if he doesn't like those aspects of war that Garagos stands for. And if he does not have the stones do it, then perhaps Tempus is the one that needs to take the cut. When following a god of war, you need to be sure he rules over ALL aspects of war, not just the one he is comfortable with.
And of the all the deities that I could think to bring back, Moander is the one that stands forth in my mind. He was a god of unapproachable, unreasoning evil. A perfect counter to the greater dieties of good. Of all the gods, his avatar The Abomination, was perhaps one of the more frightening "creatures" that the Realms has produced. A giant compost pile, the size of a mountain, with exceptional intelligence, intent on your death.
Once again, just my opinion.
An interesting idea... what if Moander was not in truth a god? What if he was a Primordial, it fits more with the character seen in the Finder Stone Novels as something inhuman, alien, and madness inducing. He also existed extradimensionally. What if the Primordial aspect of Moander remained on Abeir and returned when the Spellplague hit? What if it is looking to merge with it's divine form to create a stronger creature?
Thoughts? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 01:07:26
|
| I think we should be careful assigning 'Primordial'-status to this and/or that deity. Maybe it's just me... but something like that should still be pretty rare, to better reflect the "few Primordials who remain on Toril." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 01:19:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think we should be careful assigning 'Primordial'-status to this and/or that deity. Maybe it's just me... but something like that should still be pretty rare, to better reflect the "few Primordials who remain on Toril."
Or he could be what happens when a Deity and a Primordial do the nasty? Like an abomination turned into a divine thing of chaos. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 16:01:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think we should be careful assigning 'Primordial'-status to this and/or that deity. Maybe it's just me... but something like that should still be pretty rare, to better reflect the "few Primordials who remain on Toril."
Sounds like a reasonable idea, but assigning Primordial status to a dead god here and there probably shouldn't impact things overmuch. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 19:30:33
|
Just want to point out that Moander is not entirely dead. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 19:43:01
|
| Is any god ever truly entirely dead? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 23:04:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Is any god ever truly entirely dead?
Perhaps not. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2008 : 02:05:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Just want to point out that Moander is not entirely dead.
Indeed. There's a nice follow-up to what Moander is up to in Powers of Faerûn; it builds on Realmslore from Volo's Guide to the Dalelands -- see the section on "Tsornyl."
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 05:30:35
|
With the changes that *were* made in 4E, both in the pantheon and elsewhere, they could just as easily have trimmed the entire pantheon down to two: Moander and Waukeen seem to be the gods who were being heard by the people making the design decisions, and they didn't even bring Moander back. Of course, they also made Asmodeus a god in the core rules and in the Realms, so maybe *that* is where their inspiration was coming from... 
And it strikes me as odd that they killed off *every* god of magic. But perhaps not so odd, when you consider what was done to arcane spellcasters in the core rules. A class as pathetic as 4E wizard can't possibly have any gods backing it up. 
Anyway, just my thoughts on a game system I'll never play and a version of the Realms I'll never play in. Hopefully somebody will have fun with what they've created; it would be nice if there's a 5th edition sometime... hopefully soon... with lots of retcon goodness...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 12:53:48
|
To me it seems as if most of the scribes in here have somthing against the new realms and I can understand why. Personally i hate it. Killing Mystra on her home plane, where she is the strongest, and considering that Azuth also resides there... come on Well they might pull some of the wow players they might not, but it seems that they just want to make a game that anyone can play and thats fine, but destroying a realm most of us were brought up in I feel is just Fu..ed up! Also the classes... when anyone can use magic... well who saind WoW??? I guess, that soon we will se and expansion calle "wrath of the whatever"
It no longer Dungeons and Dragons, its tabletop World of Warcraft and that sucks ... 
Mod Edit: Watch the language please. |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Sep 2008 14:33:39 |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 10:45:59
|
I shall... Sorry! |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 14:13:50
|
The new 4e FR setting is definitely not the Realms anymore, and does indeed bear more resemblance to a tabletop WoW than D&D. In 20 years, those WoW fanatics will probably have fond remembrances of 4th edition while griping about D&D 6.5e and the completely godless Forgotten Realms where techno-magic reigns supreme.
Change is inevitable. Change also sucks, but still inevitable.  |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 15:07:39
|
| Sometimes change is good. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 23:26:47
|
| Change can indeed be for the better, but this change, the world cataclysmic event that has transpired is like a nuclear holocaust. Like the Terminator movies... That kind of change so sudden... well I just cant find the good in it! |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:10:36
|
| I was just saying. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 01:56:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Sometimes change is good.
Nope, change always sucks.
If you had something good and there seems to be a change and it seems to be good... then there was no change. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 02:19:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Nope, change always sucks.
Wow!
|
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 03 Oct 2008 02:20:01 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 02:32:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Sometimes change is good.
Nope, change always sucks.
If you had something good and there seems to be a change and it seems to be good... then there was no change.
I'm not sure I follow what you mean here.
A change is a change, regardless of whether it's good or bad. If you change something and it improves a situation, it is still a change, regardless. You've added/modified something new/existing. Just as if you change something and it makes the situation worse. It's still a change because something has, again, been added/modified. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 02:36:50
|
You're reading too much into it.
I'm looking at it from more of a big picture perspective... for example, if you make changes to something good and its still good afterwards, then nothing's changed in my opinion. More good is just added goodness, not different goodness. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 02:48:27
|
| But you've added something new to the material. And by doing so, you're likely going to have to change other things in order for the new element to properly relate with pre-existing material. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 02:53:39
|
Shhhhh.
(whispers): I get that... I'm just sticking to my "change sucks" story by not acknowledging any change that is good as being change at all. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Gods that Should have died
