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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 17:58:12
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The text of the FRCG 4ed says this:
"Ao exists beyond the concept of alignment or worship.
He serves no one, and no one serves him. Instead
he watches all, sees all, and judges all."
But, in Avatarīs Trilogy, more precisely Waterdeep, in the end of the epilogue has a passage that says other thing:
"A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, for-giving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.
"They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure.""
After all, the people that wrote FRCG 4ed know the previsous scenario? Based in the TERRIBLE book I buy  , I really think not!
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Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 18:18:12
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Officially, it was said that YOU, the reader, was Ao's 'boss'.
Personally, I always felt that was a crock of s___, because TSR at the time didn't want to tangle with RW religion and talk about THE GOD. Giving the Judaeo-Christian Omnipotent God any sort of official place in D&D would be opening a HUGE can of worms (can you imagine the 3e team giving him/her STATS?) 
So, in D&D, and as far as our game characters are concerned, Ao is the 'Top Dog" (if they even know about him at all). Ao's 'boss' I consider meta-gaming knowledge, and it has no bearing on the game or the setting.
But he exists, you know...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Aug 2008 21:03:36 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 18:35:42
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So Ao still exists in 4e? And he did nothing to prevent or regulate the tide of events of the years 1384 and later?  He actually tolerates Shar preventing another deity to become the new deity of magic?
And another gaping hole is just popping out of nowhere ... |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 18:36:25
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| I always thought that it was kinda tacky that they (TSR) created a Judeo-Christian overgod (AO, Alpha and Omega I presume, a title used in the New Testament for the returned Christ) for the Realms (and I am speaking as an evangelical Christian). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 18:47:11
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| Holy piece of... grrrrr!!! |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 19:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
Holy piece of... grrrrr!!!
Lol. Care to elaborate more eloquently at some later time? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 21:07:18
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Actually his official boss is A Luminous Being, according to Faiths & Avatars.
Now, some theories say that is DM's/gamedesigners/etc but it's never been detailed what that luminous being is. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 21 Aug 2008 21:08:19 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 21:09:43
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I thought AO was the designer and the overlord was a TSR goon that stood, with toothpicks in the corner of his mouth, controlling that everything went according to his wishes.
You know, with all the retcon's done during the edition changes I never understood why they didn't just remove the whole AO thing. Nobody has found any use for the whole idiotic idea since the Time of Troubles anyway. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 21:11:02
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@Hawkins - as a Born-Again Christian, I was delighted that the end of the book pointed to a 'yet greater' being that Ao must listen to.
I always felt that the D&D deities were just 'little gods' - just uber-powerful immortal 'people' (if that makes any sense). In my own take on the Cosmological, they are one of lowest ranks of 'Divinity'. They are the ones that must be the liason between the Mortal World and the 'Truly Divine' Primordial Beings of the Universe. If the Universe was a Corporation, they'd just be local Asst. Managers (and demi-gods would be Dept. Heads).
In my ranking system, I have 100 'levels', and only one being is DvR 100.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Aug 2008 21:12:03 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 21:49:53
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If anyone is playing Neverwinter Nights (the orginal game), there is a relatively new module (in three parts) called "Aribeth's redemption". Picking up the original story you (as heroe of Neverwinter, having just defeated Moragh) are partaking at the trial against Aribeth (which offers also a solution why she is considered dead in HotU ), and, being her real lover, you take it upon yourself to aid Aribeth to redeem for her misdeed. The moduls can be found here.
Most interesting the author is also a christian and offers in conversations your hero has with different NPCs a genuin christian cosmology (interpreting AO from Alpha and Omega on the grounds of christian theology and offering for the other gods a view derived, I think, from thoughts found in the writings of C. S. Lewis).
But even for someone not interested in real-world religions the moduls are fun to play which reflects in their ranking on NWN Vault. We all are impatiently awaiting the final part in fall this year.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
You know, with all the retcon's done during the edition changes I never understood why they didn't just remove the whole AO thing. Nobody has found any use for the whole idiotic idea since the Time of Troubles anyway.
This is something which struck me as odd. I would have thought they would have silently abandoned Ao to introduce the changes without the need to explain Ao's seeming passiveness. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 01:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
You know, with all the retcon's done during the edition changes I never understood why they didn't just remove the whole AO thing. Nobody has found any use for the whole idiotic idea since the Time of Troubles anyway.
Ao is supposed to remain a largely "unknown" element in terms of the Realms and the setting as a whole. He's an overpower -- unknowable. Look at what happened to the cults that grew up around Ao-worship after the ToT... They started up wanting to learn and know more about the mystery that is Ao. They, however, quickly faded and disappeared when it become apparent that Ao had no intention of answering prayers or having any type of relations with mortals.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 02:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, and just a friendly Mod reminder...
Let's try to keep the references/discussions to/about real-world religions as brief as possible. 
I understand the desire to do so, but sometimes a given reference is better understood by a reference to real world mythology. Surely, everyone here is mature enough to handle people like HawkinstheDM mentioning the connections between Ao and evangelical Christianity.
Ao strikes me as a rather heavy handed rererence, sure, but it's better than shoving any one real world religion down our throats. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 03:34:04
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And that's understandable.
Although, sometimes, despite the best intentions of some scribes, discussions about religious influences in RPGs can rapidly turn nasty. So it's usually a good idea to just avoid them as much as possible. If there are some crucial points you want to make about real-world religions, feel free to take them to PMs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 05:14:45
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| As an atheist that very much like playing religious characters in the Realms, AO is a concept that never made his way into my games. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Aug 2008 05:15:08 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 14:21:33
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In our world, we are most relegious, but we do not care for AO... Most of all because only my char. knows about him, and secondly because he has no use to any mortal... In given time he might be someone to interact with, if one got powerful enough, but not now and not for a long time.
But yes AO has a master, and that master has a master. As far as I have ever read about the realms, there are always someone more powerful... Ending up with Dungeon Master, from the cartoons of the 80's He was da bomb. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 17:26:03
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
The text of the FRCG 4ed says this:
"Ao exists beyond the concept of alignment or worship.
He serves no one, and no one serves him. Instead
he watches all, sees all, and judges all."
That pretty much coincides with what Rich said way back when... |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 18:00:31
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I don't use Ao, and never would, under any circumstances.
But I don't mind his existance, either. Going back to old 2e cosmology, when everything was interconnected, I liked the idea that each Crystal Sphere had its own 'caretaker'. That being doesn't get involved with mortals - he could care less about them - his job is maintaining his Sphere and keeping it 'running' right.
And thats all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
You know, with all the retcon's done during the edition changes I never understood why they didn't just remove the whole AO thing. Nobody has found any use for the whole idiotic idea since the Time of Troubles anyway.
Ao is supposed to remain a largely "unknown" element in terms of the Realms and the setting as a whole. He's an overpower -- unknowable. Look at what happened to the cults that grew up around Ao-worship after the ToT... They started up wanting to learn and know more about the mystery that is Ao. They, however, quickly faded and disappeared when it become apparent that Ao had no intention of answering prayers or having any type of relations with mortals.
And because of this he is even less necessary in my view. The whole thing never really fit in Faerun as I see it. One thing would be the myth of an over-god, a being that disillusioned people turned to, but a real overpower controlling everything. No, it just seems wrong to me.
But thats just my personal taste. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 21:14:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
So Ao still exists in 4e? And he did nothing to prevent or regulate the tide of events of the years 1384 and later?
I guess not. According to the text, he sees all, watches all (isn't that more or less the same thing?), judges all--but apparently does nothing. In which case, he might as well not even be there. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Aug 2008 21:17:34 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 06:16:49
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| But he tries to preserve the balance. This is the main reason he created the gods after all, and given his reaction when the gods challenged the balance (-> ToT) he doesn't take it lightly if gods overstep their responsibilities. Killing Mystra may be in accordance with the portfolios of Cyric and Shar, but preventing a new deity of magic seems to be way beyond the portfolio of Shar. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 10:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
The text of the FRCG 4ed says this:
"Ao exists beyond the concept of alignment or worship.
He serves no one, and no one serves him. Instead
he watches all, sees all, and judges all."
But, in Avatarīs Trilogy, more precisely Waterdeep, in the end of the epilogue has a passage that says other thing:
"A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, for-giving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.
"They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure.""
After all, the people that wrote FRCG 4ed know the previsous scenario? Based in the TERRIBLE book I buy , I really think not!
You see, this excerpt from Waterdeep was just the icing on the cake - with regard to the rather unsatisfying Avatars series. When reading that, I instantly had the image of the (no disrespect whatsoever) gentle, admonishing, and utterly "good" Christian God in mind, watching over one and all, real world or FR. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 10:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Officially, it was said that YOU, the reader, was Ao's 'boss'.
Personally I always thought it would be easiest if the DM is Ao, since Ao created the world and every DM somehow adapts his own version of the Realms. You could also go for the "Ao is Ed Greenwood" (since he created the Realms as a setting), but then every DM would be "Ed Greenwoods boss" and thats where it starts getting complicated. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 13:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
But he tries to preserve the balance. This is the main reason he created the gods after all, and given his reaction when the gods challenged the balance (-> ToT) he doesn't take it lightly if gods overstep their responsibilities. Killing Mystra may be in accordance with the portfolios of Cyric and Shar, but preventing a new deity of magic seems to be way beyond the portfolio of Shar.
There is no way Shar should have been able to do that.
And even though he's just a watcher, I still don't see him just sitting back and watching as the world gets radically altered by divine action. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 15:34:45
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I forgot about the Epilogue of Waterdeep until now. Does that mean that Mr. Spangly Robe in the <gag><choke> Bhaalspawn Saga was Ao after all?!?  I had thought that ... oy! ... why am I even bother worrying about it? It's the Bhaalspawn Saga ... I don't think that "thought" came into play at any time during the creation of that horrible mish-mash....
I follow the Planescape view of Ao: he/she/it/they is the overpower of Realmspace, as the Great God is the overpower of Krynn and You-Know-Who is the overpower of Earthspace.
I happened to be reading City of Splendors (ELB's book) a little while ago, and Eric says that Ao worship lasted all of six months in Waterdeep. In my campaign the Cynosure (the temple-turned public hall built for that short-lived religion in canon Realmslore) is the headquarters of a trading company owned by my own PCs-turned-NPCs. I wasn't aware until now, however, of the Impeded Magic trait in the Ruins of Myrkul (in which the Cynosure is located). Does anyone know the extent of the Ruins? That planar trait would be very significant in my own campaign if I adopt it, but I would like to know its dimensions (including how far under the surface it extends, if anyone happens to know). A little help, please!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 18:56:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is no way Shar should have been able to do that.
And even though he's just a watcher, I still don't see him just sitting back and watching as the world gets radically altered by divine action.
Of course, but wasn't it stated in one of the preview articles that Shar prevented the rising of a new deity of magic? It's this inconsistency that annoys me. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is no way Shar should have been able to do that.
And even though he's just a watcher, I still don't see him just sitting back and watching as the world gets radically altered by divine action.
Of course, but wasn't it stated in one of the preview articles that Shar prevented the rising of a new deity of magic? It's this inconsistency that annoys me.
It was stated. And I am just as annoyed by things like that as you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:34:37
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| Maybe Ao just has a really long fuse? After all, it took him thousands and thousands of years to work himself up to the Time of Troubles. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 22:11:13
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| I've never used Ao either, but he gives me the easiest out to explain why none of the 4e nonsense will ever occur in my Realms. So sayeth the Overlord, baby. Booyah! |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 03:44:22
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| I used Ao as one of the "true" god. I create a panteon of supreme gods. AO and two more Supreme Gods are the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Like this I made a history of player fight against all "minor gods" (Regular FR Gods). Was funny! |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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jibriil
Acolyte
Australia
5 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 19:03:58
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Are there any characters that follow multiple gods? - say Mystra and Vhaerun? Is it possible?? Could someone who once followed Ao gain favour with any group of gods of similar disposition, A priestess of Eilistraee and servant of Mystra? Or even opposing such as Mielikki and Lolth? A Chaotic Neutral Extremist....
There must be some example of dual worship. Is there any example of this in RW religion that could serve as example as to how this could be incorporated? |
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Finally, AO has or hasnīt a "boss"???
