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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 08:28:06
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From the Least favourite character, our discussion went a little bit off topic... 
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 08:41:03
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| He just wanted to put everything in its proper place. I should have though of it myself, since it's been on my mind. It's an intriguing question. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 09:14:49
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Well, here's how I figure it. Using Mournblade's method of labling numbers and all the powers in Faiths and Pantheons, I got:
Lawful: 81
Neutral: 111
Chaotic: 108
Good: 145
Neutral: 80
Evil: 71
Please feel free to check my work, as complicated things like addition are difficult for me. 
Now, I don't know how you average this together and still keep to an alignment. I'll leave that up to you people. However, it looks like this will end up being Neutral Good as well. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 09:47:34
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Yes that's exactly what i meant Bookwyrm.
I'll do the same job for the 2E to see if there was a noticable evolution.
And maybe George could help us on this point |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 10:19:25
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It seems okay so far Bookwyrm. I will check over the average stats when I get home. I may even work on a 1e average for the FR pantheon, since that was the general idea I was tending towards in the other scroll.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 10:31:55
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I think we also need to distinguish though, not only between alignment but active participation.
Mystra is a force for good who actively participates as such a force. Lloth is the same just evil.
But what about the Gods, who while being of a certain alignment, have about a zero influence and/or participation in the realms. I mean assuming Illmater is a good god, he can't be considered the equal opposite alignment of someone like Cyric. What you guys think? |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 10:36:51
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| There's also Ulutiu. He's just a demigod anyway, but he has basically zero impact. He's not dead, but he's willingly sleeping on the Astral. All he does is grant spells, basically. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Carrick
Acolyte
Netherlands
8 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 11:01:51
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Again, why does this only invovle human deities? Is there lackof material about demihuman deities.
Looking at the elven pantheon I would say it is tipping way over to the good side.
But if you include the Drow within the Elven Pantheon then it might balance out again.
does this balance think count for every pantheon? I would not think the Halflings have avery balanced pantheon, for example |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 11:06:33
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| As I said in my previous post, I used every deity in Faiths and Pantheons; that includes elven, drow, halfling, orc, and gnome pantheons as well. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 12:43:19
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I am going to take a look into Monster Mythology as well since there are a lot of FR demi-human and monstrous creature deities detailed in there as well. There is some specific information that also details nonhuman pantheon interactions with the older 1e FR human pantheon.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 15:29:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
But what about the Gods, who while being of a certain alignment, have about a zero influence and/or participation in the realms. I mean assuming Illmater is a good god, he can't be considered the equal opposite alignment of someone like Cyric. What you guys think?
I agree, but on the same hand can you say the pantheon is unbalanced just because evil is more active? |
Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 21:17:35
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I don't think whether or not a deity is active is important. I beleive this is taken care of in whether a deity is demi, lesser, intermediate, or greater. If a deity is not 'active' and greater, then he still has followers. Plus it can just be that the other deities are just as active it is just that no one is writing stories about them.
And you should NOT consider any gods but the human gods. WHY? Because this is a test of the balance of the FAERUNIAN pantheon. Correlon, Moradin, even LLoth are not in the Faerunian Pantheon. When the gods were deciding cyric's fate, it was only the faerunian pantheon that was in session so to speak. The other gods are relevant, but the non-human gods are going to throw the balance WAY off. For example, MOST elven and Dwarven gods are good. so it is going to shift the balance. When I tallied the balance so to speak I only used the alignments and power level of the currently live gods in the realms that were in the faerunian pantheon. Including people like the Red KNight and Hoar. I did not include lloth or any other non human deities. They are in a different pantheon. As different from Faerunian pantheon as the Norse pantheon is.
Without the non-humans I came to an 'average' of neutral good. I also think that the measure of a gods influence is not what is written in the stories, but what they are labelled as whether it is demi/lesser/greater. I think Tyr has just as great an influence as Mystra. And I think ilmater has as great an influence as selune.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 23 Jul 2003 21:23:10 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 01:17:23
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Well, in that case, the total is:
Lawful: 38
Neutral: 64
Chaotic: 40
Good: 48
Neutral: 54
Evil: 36
Looks a little more balanced now. Not perfect -- still a lot more good than evil. But it's better . . . .
By the way, this is without the Egyptian gods. I assumed that, while they're still human in focus (or so I assume), you didn't want that pantheon included. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 04:56:01
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I think the Egyptian pantheon is appropriate enough to be included in this working Bookwyrm. They are a relevant pantheon, and have a stated basis in the Realms anyway.
I mean if we have included non-human deities, then this pantheon should be included also.
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 05:42:19
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quote:
I agree, but on the same hand can you say the pantheon is unbalanced just because evil is more active?
I was referring more to the scoring system, where regardless of activity level, Gods are awarded alignment points.
I dont think Gods should have the same score simply because of alignment, participation, lets call it POWER should be weighed too, of course it opens itself up to much bais and discussion |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 06:24:44
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| The mulhorandi pantheon is indeed relevant but it depends WHAT we are asking. Are we asking the balance of the Faerunian Pantheon, or are we asking for all the gods of any pantheon in the realms. For me I am only interested in the balance of the Faerunian Pantheon. IN the new FR setting there is a map that shows what areas of the world each pantheon holds sway. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 08:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
quote:
I agree, but on the same hand can you say the pantheon is unbalanced just because evil is more active?
I was referring more to the scoring system, where regardless of activity level, Gods are awarded alignment points.
I dont think Gods should have the same score simply because of alignment, participation, lets call it POWER should be weighed too, of course it opens itself up to much bais and discussion
If we begin to consider such things we'll never finish the work   |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 12:56:50
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Well, part of that is listed in their "divine rank." That sleeping god I mentioned is pretty powerful, but since he's sleeping he's only a demigod.
By the way, where is this map you mention? Is it in the 3e information? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 13:12:24
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| It's in Faith And Avatars, 2E book |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 13:18:35
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| Thanks. I've got that, but it's at a friend's house. I'll have to get it back sometime . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 15:15:14
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I may have to check over that map and compare it to the one in Monster Mythology. I think there may be some changes to overall pantheon spheres of influence. It might be something that we can work into this to determine the progress of deity balance and whether their influences have increased or decreased from the beginning of published Realms material.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 21:09:31
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Okay, quicky comments,
When we're talking about Divine alignment balance for faerun, are we refering to toril in general or the faerunian continent?
As for counting/not counting non-human deities with the possible exception of racist deities like loth, almost all of the "non-human" deities have at least some human worshippers. And you have to remember that these non-human deities are Faerunian specific. Loth in Faerun isn't exactly the same psycho drow lady in greyhawk. Final argument against not including non-human deities, has not being human ever stopped them from affecting human events?
Last but and certainly least, what's the point of trying to decide what the current balance is at any given "moment" if it's always in constant flux anyway, and i don't think even Ao really intended it to be a "perfect" balance.
Mal. |
"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 22:56:50
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I think the reason we are finding the balance in the first place is just out of curiosity. It is good to know these things. But before we really do, we need to come to a consensus, should it just be the Faerunian Pantheon, or all the Pantheons that have effect on Faerun. Keep in mind the Nonhuman deities are each their OWN pantheon.
I suppose for a god to get power in the Realms, they have to succumb to AO or they would not be in power.
I really don't mind which gods we find the balance for, but when I did it I was only curious about the Faerunian pantheon. The reason I asked is because without even analyzing it, there is an obvious tendency towards GOOD. I just wanted to see how far that Balance was on the good side. I diagrammed it two ways, one was a line diagram with CHAOTIC EVIL being all the way over on one side and lawful good on the other. That did not work out well, so I just went to a coordinate system, with GOOD/EVIL being the Y Axis and LAW/CHAOS being the X axis.
It is too difficult to explain how I worked out something like this numerically, but If I get a scanner I will try to show it. Anyway, the point of balance ended up being practically on the Y axis, but quite far up from the X axis.
Oh never mind...
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 07:15:16
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No, Mournblade, I understand that just fine. I don't know how to make it in this case, unless you just ignore all points for "neutral." But I can visualize it quite well. As a matter of fact, I like using a coordinate system for things like this.
The Sci-Fi author Leo Frankowski mentioned an XYZ graph for maping intelligence, instead of the one-dimesional IQ tests we have. The X, Y, and Z stood for basic knowledge (how well the subject learns), problem-solving ability, and wisdom (which includes desicion-making). I thought that was a great idea, personally. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 09:08:21
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zemd stares at the other scribes with round eyes...
Is the Faerunian Pantheons balanced or not??????? Why did i open a topic .
Personnaly i think it is not balanced. And i can't see a good way to calculate it. I don't even know if the F&P writers thought of this aspect when they wrote it |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 06:31:09
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| True. Plus I've always believed something that Eddings stated plainly in the Garion books -- somewhere in The Mallorean, possibly book five. Good is more spread out, more shared. Evil tends to concentrate, almost jealously -- like it's so evil it doesn't really want to share its evilness. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 08:14:18
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That's a good point. Sometimes I like to think of it more as a case of 'good' never being able to fully exist without 'evil'..."How can we recognise the light without the darkness?", so to speak.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 09:52:28
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"It is the irony of existance that good is totaly impotant without the contrast of evil."
--Carolinas, the Green Wizard (Flight of Dragons)
However, I personally think it's more in the nature of your second one, Sage -- knowledge.
But that wasn't what I was talking about; I was sugesting that it's why the pantheon leans more towards good than evil -- evil is more concentrated. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Faerunian Pantheon. Balanced or not?
