| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 22:24:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Monsters like, say, giant space hamsters?
Many of the creatures listed in the various monster books are never actually seen in gaming sessions, beyond the hushed whispers of terrified NPCs. They are simply too fantastic to be even slightly believable.
I'll admit giant space hamsters are a goofy concept. That's why I embrace them! 
The ones I have issues with are some of the 18000 breeds of dragons, or the incredibly unlikely undead. We've got a handful of iconic colors for dragons, and then another breed for every color combination or environ or both. And with undead, you've got all the traditional ones, but there's also things like "a green howling yodeler is created when a heartbroken half-elven male name Frehd falls off a mountain while yodeling, lands in a pool of green Jell-O, and then freezes to death while a trio of dire penguins laugh at his struggles to get out".  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
 |
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 23:53:29
|
| Although I have less difficulty accepting 18000 breeds of dragon than 100 subspecies of elves and dwarves. Just personal opinion. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 00:19:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Many of the creatures listed in the various monster books are never actually seen in gaming sessions, beyond the terrifying campfire legends half-jokingly whispered by idle NPCs. They are simply too fantastic to be even slightly believable, even within an unbelievably fantastic world.
I disagree.
Whenever I've received a new monster book, I spend some months working with practically every entry in an attempt to find a place for them in my campaign worlds. As such, both the Realms and my PLANESCAPE games are often populated by monsters that aren't traditionally attributed to either setting.
I would think this is a testament to the genius of Ed's grand creation. And, as well, the input from so many other Lorelords over the last two decades. They've each shaped and tinkered with the lore in ways that allow for almost unlimited reinterpretation and creativity. There is *literally* a place for everything so long as your mind is capable of imagining a workable solution for it and building on the platform of the Realms as it has been published. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 00:25:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Question: In a fantasy setting, is there such a thing as fantasy? Are there novels or stage plays with mythical creatures that people can enjoy while knowing they are just fairy tales with non-existant creatures? In a world with magic, gods, dragons and fiends, I guess nothing is truly impossible.
Fantasy-setting folk tells stories about worlds without magic, where people are enslaved by their own belongings and something called 'plastic'. A world with no soul, where everyone is forced to go to a place they hate every day, kiss the buttox of undeserving creatures, and worship gods they have long lost faith in.
I shudder to imagine just such a place. 
 |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2011 00:26:31 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 04:39:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Question: In a fantasy setting, is there such a thing as fantasy? Are there novels or stage plays with mythical creatures that people can enjoy while knowing they are just fairy tales with non-existant creatures? In a world with magic, gods, dragons and fiends, I guess nothing is truly impossible.
Fantasy-setting folk tells stories about worlds without magic, where people are enslaved by their own belongings and something called 'plastic'. A world with no soul, where everyone is forced to go to a place they hate every day, kiss the buttox of undeserving creatures, and worship gods they have long lost faith in.
I shudder to imagine just such a place.
There was a similar cartoon in the 1E DMG.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 06:19:55
|
| Papers & Paychecks - "It's a great new fantasy role-playing game. We pretend we're workers and students in an industrialized and technological society." |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 11:25:36
|
Monster is often used to refer to a creature that's hideous, strange, big, stupid, and driven by primal, one or two desires (like killing and reproducing). If the “monsters” display high level of intelligence (like the phaerimm, aboleths, and dragons), is it still appropriate to call them monsters? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 17:51:16
|
Wikipedia entry on Monster begins:
A monster is any [fictional] creature, usually found in legends or horror fiction, that is somewhat hideous and may produce physical harm or mental fear by either its appearance or its actions.
I'd vote that phaerimm, aboleths, and dragons all produce that effect. |
|
|
|
Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 19:27:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Wikipedia entry on Monster begins:
A monster is any [fictional] creature, usually found in legends or horror fiction, that is somewhat hideous and may produce physical harm or mental fear by either its appearance or its actions.
I'd vote that phaerimm, aboleths, and dragons all produce that effect.
...and anyone seen on To Catch a Predator |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 09:10:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Wikipedia entry on Monster begins:
A monster is any [fictional] creature, usually found in legends or horror fiction, that is somewhat hideous and may produce physical harm or mental fear by either its appearance or its actions.
I'd vote that phaerimm, aboleths, and dragons all produce that effect.
A stupid question comes from this description.
The men with complexion of classic 'Igor', while they are humans, are both found in Horror Fictions, they are hideous and produce mental fear by both appearance and actions. Should they count as monsters? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
|
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 09:35:58
|
I would say the answer, within the parameters of that description, depends entirely on whether your Igors produce physical harm. Spontaneously playful pranks (like, say, deliberately selecting the Abby Normal brainjar) generally do not cause harm in a directly monstrous sense.
More to the point - the definition provided by omnipresent and omniscient Wikipedia is not, in this particular instance, as accurate as those available through more scholarly sources. Even children can readily identify monsters ... the more profound question (as explored in works ranging from The Modern Prometheus to Monsters, Inc.) is whether the monsters are indeed monstrous. The worst monsters, in the sense of inflicting harm, are those who appear fully human. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 16:29:51
|
If we were to broaden the description to still-living, wholly human (no templates) people, then we would have to include folk that suffer from some disability or ailment that made others 'uncomfortable', and then you are opening up a whole 'nother can of worms.
On the other hand, we often here about persons guilty of heinous crimes being referred to as 'monsters', so I would have to say the real answer would be YES, humans can be monsters.
The Hunchback of Notre Dame was an Igor. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 17:16:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Hunchback of Notre Dame was an Igor.
Or perhaps a monstrous humanoid would be more appropriate to fit him into a MM/MC 'type' block.  |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 00:51:01
|
| Many creatures, humanoids, are found in the various Monster books instead of the Player's Handbook. Many of them are far less monstrous than NPCs like Manshoon, Szass Tam, or Elminster. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 06:28:39
|
Calling criminals monsters is figurative.
Since the humans are the ones who define monster, it's only appropriate that the yardstick they use is their selves. The phaerimm are violent, ugly and cause fear. But for all we know, the humans are hideous to the phaerimm, and consider them monsters. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 06:52:56
|
| We do know that. Phaerimm call humans monsters outright. They also describe us as misshapen ugly things, and (if the lore written in Netheril is to be believed) they accuse us of nearly destroying their race in our monstrous ignorance. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 11:00:51
|
Reminds me of Planet 51, where the human is the "alien who would open the natives' heads and eat their brains." |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 01:09:58
|
| Humans are brutes, jumped up apes wearing a pretentious veneer of civilization. We pollute and destroy our own air and water, we feast on acid juices and drink poisons for recreation. We encourage our neighbours to starve, die, or kill each other. We apply our greatest invention towards endless refinements in producing weaponry, death, and destruction. We nailed our own god to a stick. All pretty monstrous in my opinion, civilized enlightened aliens might be utterly perplexed by their human prisoners being unreasonably uncooperative, and insisting on physically smashing our own brain-cases against their bodies. They've got no chance. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Dec 2011 02:53:19 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 05:42:49
|
Perhaps. But such are probably minor compared to what other races do and are capable of doing, like the aboleths and the malaugryms. Some say monstrosity is measured by the creature's ugliness as much as its natural intent to harm others of and not of his kind. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 12:29:46
|
| So...is it Telemont or TelAmont? Or are they two different guys? One guy with interchangable vowels when spelling his name? Why am I seeing either spelling in the same paragraph, pretty clearly seeming to be referring to the same Telamont (or is it Telemont?) Tanthul of the Shade Enclave as I'm reading Shadowrealm? Either way, I definitely missed something somewhere. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 12:58:07
|
Telamont Tanthul, Most High of Thultanthar (which is also called Shade Enclave). In old Netheril he was known as Lord Shadow.
Telemont is a commonly misspelled typo - which confused me in the past because it's an error which has been widely and persistently propagated across the internet. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 14:37:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
So...is it Telemont or TelAmont? Or are they two different guys? One guy with interchangable vowels when spelling his name? Why am I seeing either spelling in the same paragraph, pretty clearly seeming to be referring to the same Telamont (or is it Telemont?) Tanthul of the Shade Enclave as I'm reading Shadowrealm? Either way, I definitely missed something somewhere.
It's definitely Telamont. There are actually a few typos with the characters' names in The Twilight War Trilogy. I recall one instance when Rivalen was used instead of Riven. It's in Shadowstorm, I think. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 15:08:20
|
| Naming your trio of prominent characters Erevis, Riven, and Rivalen is just asking for typo confusion. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 17:06:46
|
Other famous trios....
Athos, Porthos, & Aramis?
Huey, Dewey, & Louie?
Alvin, Simon, & Theodore?
Venkman, Stantz, & Spengler?
Kirk, Spock, & McCoy?
Snap, Crackle, & Pop?
Tinman, Scarecrow, & Cowardly Lion?
And my personal favorites....
Moe, Larry, & Curly
Good Hunting! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 18:18:14
|
The best of those trios always required a "fourth man" as logistical support/backup. D'Artagnan, Donald, Egon, Scotty, etc.
That Tinman character always annoyed me. Tin does not corrode, so it's highly improbable that he could be rusty anywhere outside of Hollywood. Unless perhaps he were composed of some advanced tin-based bio-alloy, but I digress. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 18:26:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
So...is it Telemont or TelAmont? Or are they two different guys? One guy with interchangable vowels when spelling his name? Why am I seeing either spelling in the same paragraph, pretty clearly seeming to be referring to the same Telamont (or is it Telemont?) Tanthul of the Shade Enclave as I'm reading Shadowrealm? Either way, I definitely missed something somewhere.
It's definitely Telamont. There are actually a few typos with the characters' names in The Twilight War Trilogy. I recall one instance when Rivalen was used instead of Riven. It's in Shadowstorm, I think.
Yeah, I remember seeing that one. And at one point Cale grows an extra L and becomes Calle for a sentence. I don't think I've read a FR book without a few typos, but they're nowhere near as prevalent as they are in the local newspaper here or a few other things I've read. For the most part, this is the only mildly confusing one I've encountered. I was just curious as to whether that was the Most High or one of the other guys that came along for the meet with Mephistopheles that hadn't been identified on that particular page yet. Hey, if there are 12 princes, chances are that with one or two of their births mom and dad got a little lazy and decided, "well, we already have a Telamont jr, how about we just call this one 'Telemont.'" Pronunciation-wise it becomes the subtle difference between Erin and Aaron (it's there most of the time, even when it's subconscious).
Anyway, I should just go finish the book. SWTOR's launch ate majorly into my reading time, and with the servers still currently down for maintenance, I can hit the books before I feel compelled to play more video games. I've also sort of slowlg slogging through Shadowrealm knowing that I'll still have a long wait til Godborn, and I'm gonna want to read that as soon as I'm done.
I'm sure I can find something else to over-think and ask you folks about. |
Edited by - Yoss on 27 Dec 2011 18:27:05 |
|
|
|
Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 19:12:12
|
Thbbbbt!
Egon is Spengler. For Shame!
Regardless, your point is well made. I was simply injecting some levity because I had nothing to do at work and was sipping on a triple-shot espresso this morning and catching up on all the reading I missed over Christmas.
Good Hunting! |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
Stupid question time...
