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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 07:21:38
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Before the thought of the Thayan Enclave took hold, Thay was still a MAJOR exporter of magical items; with one overwhelming stipulation imposed by the ruling caste:
Nothing of military value could be exported.
There were gray areas like potion selling; but for the most part this held true (according to the text).
So a couple of questions for various players:
For early edition players (ie 1st Edition and 2nd Edition); do any of you have anything in your games regarding trade with Thay? If so, do you use an "enclave" sort of route; or an individual traveling merchant sort of route kinda like the wizard Alzegund who guards Thayan caravans...or Naglatha who poses as a non-Thayan merchant in Selgaunt...or some other manner other than an Enclave?
For later edition players...and its expanded lore...(i.e. 3e and on); do you use Thayan Enclaves for trade and if so, do you allow them to sell possibly dangerous magic in other lands?
Just a couple questions. 
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
735 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 07:34:38
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Depends. In my games (1E and 2E), enclaves are definitely out - I never liked the idea when it was introduced in 3E. Thay trades through a mix of openly Thayvian traders (like Alzegund) or covert operators (like Naglatha).
I never liked the idea of magic items as commodities either. Trade-for-gold would be limited, in principle, to consumables (like potions; scrolls would be a no-no, since in my campaigns, Thay still uses a particular magical language, carried over from Mulhorand); most everything else would be on a bartering basis. Parties looking for a given magical item would have to spread the word through the trading / smuggling / magic community, and then might be approached by a trader , who could be Thayvian or a middleman for the Thayvians without the buyer even knowing. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 09:05:58
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As usual I agree with Thauramarth.
No enclaves. I prefer to keep the Thayvans as mysterious and dangerous traders that can never be trusted, but who still are the best sources for components and luxury goods from the east. Items from the lands of Kara_Tur (or the areas substituting them in my case) will mostly go through the Red Wizards, as will many goods from the South. Most of the common goods are handled by Sea-traders, but minor magical items can be had from wandering wizards. The problem is that the wizards never accept gold, only magic or service. This makes bartering with them highly risky as you end up involved in tasks you never wanted to do or disclosing many of your magical possessions to an evil wizard.
This is how most people meet Red Wizards, as mysterious and dangerous traders, not as conquering megalomaniacs. It keeps them from being automatic opponents to be killed by players. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 11:17:37
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I personally liked the Red Wal-Mart idea. I thought it was a nifty way for Thay to be out there trying to increase its presence, working towards an eventual takeover.
Plus, I like the idea of a Thayan civil war, with the Red Wal-Marts being controlled by the Thay-in-exile faction, based out of Mulmaster. |
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Corwyn the Errant
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 20:35:19
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No enclaves in my Realms, either. Magic items are too rare and valuable to be bought and sold like ordinary goods. They are guarded jealously by their owners, only rarely changing hands. Rulers and governments treat them like we treat military-grade weapons: dangerous things that are best held by them for their own use.
Of course, that's not to say that the Red Wizards do not engage in an underground trade in certain items. Agents can be found, usually near rulers and other powerful people. Agents who are willing to offer in trade, or sometimes as gifts, enchanted items you might desire. And they are marvelous items, too: skillfully crafted and satisfyingly powerful...except some have a little bit extra enchantment on them. Subtle things, like a charm to make one look upon the Red Wizards more favorably in mercantile or diplomatic matters...or a spell to allow them to read your thoughts...or perhaps control your slumbering body to carry out some work for them in the dead of night. Should you discover these spells and try to use the items upon their creators, you will most likely find that they have ceased to function all together...or worse yet, turned upon you.  |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 21:48:55
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I have used a few Thavian Enclaves in my 3X games, but far fewer than mentioned in FR canon. However, my view on the enclaves is that they are not magic item Walmarts. Other than common potions and scrolls of 0-3rd level, they don't have magic items ready for purchase. They will take orders for enchanting things like low level wands, weapons and armor. But this is a sideline, abet a high profit one.
The enclaves primary job is to export Thavian goods like spices, wood, exotic foodstuffs, gems, and other trade goods. The Thavian slave farms have significantly expanded their planted acres, in order to accomidate the increased demand. These exports are the stated purpose of the enclaves.
In addition, the enclaves purchase local goods and ship them back to Thay. This allows them to make important local contacts and become a valued (but mistrusted) part of the local economies. It also allows the Thavian concubines (of both sexes) to gather information from important merchants and goverment officials.
Obviously the Thavians are also involved (under the counter) in esponage, slave trade and other criminal activities. The players in my campaign have had to rescue friends who have been kidnapped by thugs who sold them to the enclave. Another time, they had to get back some important papers stolen by Thavian thugs.
The enclaves also allow me to expose my players to Thayvian culture while they are still in someplace like Scardale or Phlan. I've made Thayvian culture a little more mysterious and exotic - sort of like a magical version of the Arabian Nights tales. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 22:24:46
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| I think the Red Wizard enclaves were a blatant genre mismatch -- a horrid kludge of the 3E rules artefact of magic item shops into a world without them -- and I don't believe for a second most of the towns they were sited would tolerate an open Thayan presence. In Hand of Fire Ed showed us what a Realms version of that idea would look like, with a covert Thayan establishment and no open magical trade. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 01:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In Hand of Fire Ed showed us what a Realms version of that idea would look like, with a covert Thayan establishment and no open magical trade.
That's fairly consistent with the methods I've employed when portraying a Thayvian enclave in my Realms. I have expanded on Ed's original take, of course, to reflect some of the changes I've made to Thay's international policy in my campaigns, but the general premise remains the same. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 02:34:59
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Yeah, I'd not do a Red Wal-Mart as a magic item store, as such. It'd be a place to get some minor magics, and that's it. Some potions, maybe some protection-type scrolls, wimpy wands without a lot of charges, etc. Some spell components, too, I think. Not much more than that... Of course, this is all to further the goal of expanding their influence, so the official business of selling minor bits of magic would be more of a sideline -- the main goals would be all sorts of things that'd be considered unneighborly by the host cities/countries.
Also, these minor bits of magic would likely have some drawbacks... Like secret command words that make the wands not work, or subtly addictive compounds in the potions, or "back doors" in the protection scrolls...
And doing this nicely feeds my version of a Thayan civil war. The Reds manning the enclaves aren't going to be as tightly tied to back home as those who never left -- in fact, more than a few of them might be not entirely welcome back home. It also gives them a taste of life beyond Thay. So when Szass Tam makes his powerplay back home (I've already noted, in another thread, how I'd do that), you've got a ready-made exile faction, with a support base already in place.
And all of that is pure potential, which means lots of fun for DMs.  |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 10:49:51
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| I agree, Thayan enclaves and the civil war possibility was a great idea. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 23:59:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Corwyn the Errant
Magic items are too rare and valuable to be bought and sold like ordinary goods. They are guarded jealously by their owners, only rarely changing hands. Rulers and governments treat them like we treat military-grade weapons: dangerous things that are best held by them for their own use.
I've often seen this view expounded as the 'proper' way to treat magical items.
To put it frankly, it makes zero sense.
No matter how rare and valuable something is, humans have proven willing to sell, trade or buy it. In fact, the more valuable something is, the more likely that it is traded over vast distances and forms the basis of an economy.
Why on Earth would every single person who somehow came into the possession of a +1 dagger or Sandals of Spider Climbing 'jealously guard them'? To adventurers, these are valuable tools of the trade, but not necessarily the specific tools that they would prefer. To heirs of adventurers, these may be items that they have no use for at all. If they are sought after by someone, why would they not sell them?
In the real world, one can sell (at high prices) such exotica as brandy retrieved from sunken wrecks, clothes worn by a certain celebrity or a statuette made in a certain archaic style. Note that these things don't even have any purpose or use. And the money one gains for it can be put to uses more immediately significant for normal people, i.e. providing for a family, buying a house, investing in a business, etc.
Adventurers often have treasure that they have no immediate use for and a desire for magical items useful in combat. Normal people usually have a desire for wealth that can make their lives easier and if they were to come into possession of magical items, what's stopping them from selling them?
Certainly, adventurers that find magical items often want to sell them. Why shouldn't they? That's what humans do. We earn an income doing things we are good at and then spend that income on paying others for things that they are good at. Specialisation.
Wizards could perhaps learn how to perform spells that took care of every single bodily need and desire for them. But it would be easier, simpler and more efficient for them to master a given magical task, perform it for others for pay and then pay yet other people for food, clothing, luxury and service.
This idea is the foundation of human culture. Not just modern culture, mind you, but anything above a group of monkeys. Pretending that it won't apply to people who learn to use magic is preposterous. There's no note in any book of lore or crunch that wizard PCs should be played as essentially non-human and incapable of comprehending ideas that Cro-Magnon men rapidly mastered.
Also, what is it that makes all these magical items so sought-after? We know why adventurers want them, but why would a king pay the equivalent of what it costs to equip several knights for a magic dagger that is slightly better at cutting? Why is that magical dagger equivalent of dangerous military weaponry today? What is its vast destructive power?
Not to mention that dangerous military weaponry is bought and sold today. Attack aircraft, things of infinitely more destructive power than a +1 dagger or Boots of the North, are sold to nations that are at best neutral toward the one selling it (hell, there are many examples where it turned out that they were more or less hostile). If that's how real people think, why do people in a fantasy world not think similarly? Are people not still people?
The cost of magical items ought to correlate with how much it would cost to match their performance non-magically, with the cost going up if it is more convenient for some reason to have an item that does it. If the cost of making them is more than this, no one will make magical items except people that are not motivated by money (mostly the rich).
And they ought to be bought and sold, because humans buy and sell everything else, no matter how rare, expensive or dangerous. Certainly, restrictions on their trade, as with other trade restrictions, will crop up when governments are concerned with their interests and how best to serve them. But, as with all other attempts to make certain trade illegal, it will not be enough to stop it.
And sensible governments will instead try to regulate the truly dangerous items and ignore things that simply amount to slightly more useful tools. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 01:30:30
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I think the argument isn't that magic items shouldn't be sold, but that there shouldn't be open-to-all magic item stores which have 10 shelves of scrolls and magic items of all descriptions. Rather, as your argument about obscure items and military hardware supports, you should be able to obtain them only by having connections, keeping feelers out, and possibly outbidding others interested in the same item. I see magic item acquisition, especially of rare or powerful items, as a process where the prospective buyer or seller will send feelers out through interested individuals that they have something they wish to sell or buy. Then, word spreads around and someone comes up and makes an offer or tells them they've got someone interested and after the seller gets enough interest or an offer high enough for him the sale is made.
To use an example, if I want to go pick up a generic rifle or shotgun I can go to sporting goods stores, gun shops, gun shows and auctions, and even wal mart. On the other hand, if I want a Lee-Enfield No. 5 jungle carbine with all original parts that was used in combat during WW2 I would have had to, in the pre-internet days, seek out other collectors and trawl pawn shops, gun auctions, and magazines or classified ads looking for the weapon, then make sure it is not a clever fake or a defective weapon. Finally, I would make an offer and either pay a high price up front or try and bargain the seller down to what I feel the weapon is worth. This is the same way I see magic items. Any large city will have shops that sell potions of healing, wands of light, and even a few generic magical weapons in a magic-heavy location. However, if I want to find a sword that lights up with flames or armor that stops spells the buyer, even in a large city, would be doing lots of legwork and information gathering to find a seller who has an authentic item that matches his exact wants at a price he is willing to pay.
The only exception to this is custom ordering an item from a wizard, but that requires finding a wizard who is capable of creating the item, trustworthy enough not to add commands that he can use to override the item, and who is willing to spend a good amount of time and energy working only on your item and not researching new spells or mastering higher magic. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 03:23:12
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Well, of course stores with many expensive items in stock are a poor fit for anything at even a vaguely 'medievalish' technological level. The vast majority of things that are bought and sold will be special orders. If you want a cloak, you have a cloakmaker make one for you.
The historical solution was guilds, where people looking for certain things could hire a craftsman to construct it or could buy an already extant item originally ordered by someone else, but for some reason not delivered.
On the other hand, the Forgotten Realms are not medieval* at all. In canon Realslore such as both novels and game books, we know that stylish boutiques and other stores have a standing stock of items that in real medieval times would only have been made by special order. Swords, plate harnesses, war destriers, all sorts of items that in actual history cost months, years or decades of a skilled craftsman's labour to buy are kept waiting for potential customers.
A suit of field plate and a war-trained destrier are items that, in any reasonably plausible world, are both more expensive and potentially dangerous than a knife which has a magically sharpened edge.
If the GM doesn't change the Forgotten Realms into a medieval world, in the process doing away with most of the easy travel, wide-ranging and reliable trade of cheap handicrafts or consumables, well-stocked stores and nobles playing tourist, it's inconsistent to treat magical items differently.
Sure, I guess we could assume far fewer and less powerful wizards, in which cases magical items are not practical as tools or weapons, but would be nearly exclusively curios and collectibles for rich people. But that would be, again, a very different world.
If the Realms are as they have been described in most canon sources**, a successful merchant will usually purchase magical protections, locks and/or traps. Rulers and other powerful folk will have many magical protections. Crime lords like Elaith Craulnober or Jarlaxle Baenre will collect magical gewgaws. Nobles will hire mercenary mages and buy enchanted steel.
All of this demands an existing market for magic, its use and its finished products. An individual PC seeking to sell a wand that he can't use or a magical weapon that he feels ill-suited is not the first person to think of selling a magical item. Nor is the PC who wishes to buy a magical towel which doesn't soil the first person to wish to purchase magic.
If something is being bought and sold, there will be people who seek to make money by buying it from those who sell it and then locate those seeking to buy it and selling it for a higher price to them.
Guilds of mages are a very sensible way to handle this. Guilds which offer to identify and buy magical treasures and which you can contact to construct items for you would quickly grow rich and powerful. In fact, wizards who did not belong to them would probably be out-competed and unable to buy as many compenents, research as many spells, etc.
That one of the functions of a wizard's guild should be to allow the wizards to more efficiently pursue their professions is so basic an idea that it baffles me when people try to maintain that 'you can't just walk in somewhere and buy magical items'. Yes, in fact, you probably can, if the world is supposed to be at all plausible and consistent. You can walk into a wizards' guild and comission someone to construct for you what you desire.
Yes, complications might arise, and treachery is, I suppose, always a possibility. But even the most self-interested and callous archmage should be able to see that it is to his benefit that the guild should sell magic and spellcasting for other things (for example, ink, paper, magical compenents, etc.).
In that way, the enclaves of Thay make perfect sense. They've seen that for some unfathomable reason, most places in the Forgotten Realms seem unable to apply the same methods to trade in magic as they can in every other commodity***. Shaking their heads in consternation over the collective stupidity of everyone, they've determined to supply a product for which there is apparently a huge demand and on which they have almost a monopoly while everyone else remains retarded.
On the theory that everyone who isn't Thayan is not automatically functionally retarded in my Forgotten Realms, there actually exists some competition in the form of wizards' guilds, independent facilitators and, yes, magic item shops.
*Yes, I know they are often described that way. Let it suffice to say that the people who do so are not particularly well informed about actual history. Those aspects of the Forgotten Realms that are not so changed by magic as to have no real world equivalents are still not very 'medieval'. Closer to the Renaissaince, but still not all that close.
**Of course, canon can be and often is inconsistent. Let's assume that we ignore the outliers and try to pick out something of a consensus of sources.
***I can hear the screams of nerdrage, insisting that 'magic isn't just a commodity'. Sigh. Yes, yes, it is. So is anything else that someone desires and can be traded for some other consideration. If the physical act of love can be a commodity (and it can), so can magic. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 04:40:46
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Applaud...
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Well, of course stores with many expensive items in stock are a poor fit for anything at even a vaguely 'medievalish' technological level. The vast majority of things that are bought and sold will be special orders. If you want a cloak, you have a cloakmaker make one for you...
<snip of good post>
***I can hear the screams of nerdrage, insisting that 'magic isn't just a commodity'. Sigh. Yes, yes, it is. So is anything else that someone desires and can be traded for some other consideration. If the physical act of love can be a commodity (and it can), so can magic.
To speak on your last point here; even "Love" can be sold...and not the physical aspect...when it comes to magic.
In general, my only problem is the Thayan Enclave idea. We are talking about mistrusted individuals...at LEAST!
For the Thayans to have an enclave anywhere in Sembia would scream to me MAGICAL GUILD WAR!
I doubt highly that the likes of the Iron Throne or Zhentarim would take lightly the Thayans butting into "their" territory. Magical Terrorism would prevail...with the Thayan's never getting their structures finished before their opponents would be moving against them.
For THAT reason, the Thayans would have to work behind the scenes in a more "traditional" fashion.
If you want to look at my take on Thayan trade, you have only to look at the modern diamond trade in the world. They are so expensive not because they are rare...but because they are hoarded and doled slowly at greater cost.
Why work your ass off to undercut the market...when you can make the world at large starved for your wares and pay through the nose for what little you DO make.
In my world, the Thayans and others like them (the Zhentarim etc.) seek to dominate the magic "trade" by taking out certain targets that had magic...keeping others from gathering magic where they can and etc.
The goal of evil organizations is to keep others from having things...unless people get things from them for an outrageous price!
Just my take on things...and it may not all be clear right now because my meds are making me a bit swimmy-headed!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 09:53:07
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Agree with Icelander.
In my games I made merchants from the Wizard's Reach a sort of mercantile mediators that made fiendish pacts with the more conservative Red Wizards that are not involved in the enclave business. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 13:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In general, my only problem is the Thayan Enclave idea. We are talking about mistrusted individuals...at LEAST!
For the Thayans to have an enclave anywhere in Sembia would scream to me MAGICAL GUILD WAR!
I doubt highly that the likes of the Iron Throne or Zhentarim would take lightly the Thayans butting into "their" territory. Magical Terrorism would prevail...with the Thayan's never getting their structures finished before their opponents would be moving against them.
Well, Red Wizards are mistrusted, sure, but isn't there a reason to mistrust all wizards?
If you were a ruler of a city state and you could only get your magic from one guild, wouldn't you be concerned that this guild could control your policies too easily? Could remove you at will?
It is desirable, from the point of view of local government, to have an active competition in providing magic. That means that you are less likely to be a pawn of wizards supporting your throne with magic.
Furthermore, merchants and adventurers are common customers of those selling magic. If they prefer to stop in cities with Thayan enclaves, not having one means that trade to your city is vastly reduced. Mistrust or no mistrust, who is going to accept that?
So I see powerful local interests as supporting the Thayans, as well as opposing them. Not to mention that neither the Zhentarim, the Iron Throne, nor many other organisations were really providing this service beforehand. And both the Zhentarim and the Iron Throne have had other concerns in recent years. It's not like they would have the power to prevent the enclaves, not against vested business interests and the magical power of the Thayans themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If you want to look at my take on Thayan trade, you have only to look at the modern diamond trade in the world. They are so expensive not because they are rare...but because they are hoarded and doled slowly at greater cost.
The two are in no way comparable. DeBeers is in a position where they control much of the supply.
Thay does not control every mage who can make magical items. They probably don't even control an appreciable fraction of them. And let's not even get into the vast supply of magical items from lost civilisations and fallen kingdoms.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Why work your ass off to undercut the market...when you can make the world at large starved for your wares and pay through the nose for what little you DO make.
But they don't control the supply of the product. Nor can they, really, until they control the world entirely.
Which, I add, they will eventually do if they continue to undercut the market. If Thay is the richest nation on the Inner Sea, Thay will probably also be the first nation to adopt new and more efficient manufacturing processes. They already grow more acricultural products at less cost than their neighbours (by magically controlling the weather). They can also create cheap textiles and mass-produced 'art' objects to sell (see, for example, The City of Ravens Bluff). It's not a stretch to imagine them organising their slave working force to expand into other manufacturing sectors.
By 'working their asses off' (actually, working off the asses of their slaves, apprentices and underlings) to undercut the market, the Red Wizards are growing far more powerful than they ever could by squandering their resources on unwinnable wars and foolish internal bickering.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In my world, the Thayans and others like them (the Zhentarim etc.) seek to dominate the magic "trade" by taking out certain targets that had magic...keeping others from gathering magic where they can and etc.
That goal is not even close to being realistic. It essentially pits the organisation that tries it against every other magic-user in the world, with invariably fatal results for the initiator.
For an analogy, imagine if one medium-sized sporting goods chain were to decide that they wanted a monopoly on all trade in weapons in the world. They'd then start to attack government armories. What do you think would happen?
Neither the Zhentarim nor the Red Wizards are even a fraction of the mages in the Forgotten Realms. If either of them were ever to do something that automatically made them the enemy of everyone who could create magical items (mages and priests), they'd simply be squashed like bugs.
Can you imagine the Church of Shar accepting that a few hundred wizards should have a monopoly on magical items of all sorts? The Church of Cyric? The Church of Bane? Any other church? Halruua? Any given wizards' guild?
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The goal of evil organizations is to keep others from having things...unless people get things from them for an outrageous price!
Perhaps in cartoons.
More plausible 'evil' organisations tend to have goals that benefit them in some way, or at least serve to bring about some state which the organisation believes ought to prevail.
The Red Wizards desire power. And while power may spring from the tip of a wand; it also flows from an upturned purse.
Providing a desirable product at a lower price than any competitors is a very effective way to become fantastically rich in the real world. Why wouldn't it work in a fantasy world? And why wouldn't any organisation, 'good' or 'evil', want to become fantastically rich?
The Red Wizards do not control the supply of magical items. They do have the organisation and infrastructure to make them faster and cheaper than others. This means that they don't need a monopoly. They will benefit immensely from legitimate trade instead.
Consider this. The Red Wizards currently have an income that likely exceeds that of any other band of wizards of similar size. As long as no other wizards are able to organise themselves as they have done and can offer even cheaper magical items, they will continue to have a vast revenue stream.
Without ever doing anything underhanded in their business dealings, without the slightest hint of 'evil' doings in their enclaves, their actions are still yielding them massive dividends in terms of power. They can afford larger armies. They can buy more slaves, which, in turn, can make even more cheap trade goods that they can sell. More profits, and they can buy more warships. They can control trade on the Alamber Sea with warships, bringing in even more money. Which they can use for still larger armies. Or Doomsday projects. Creating artifacts or spells of unimaginable power. Bribing governments and obtaining satellite states.
Really, the legitimate wealth that Thay is gaining here can be used for any number of evil schemes. Which, realistically, are going to succceed eventually, simply because they have so much more resources than anyone else. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 00:28:45
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Are you secretly a Thayan?
You talk like one.
Fella...I didn't say you were wrong...so no need to say I'm wrong. My Realms right?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 00:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Are you secretly a Thayan?
You talk like one.
In order to plausibly portray characters, a GM must understand them. In this case, though, it's not really hard to understand.
Flying lizards and spells aside; people are people. And people want as much stuff they they can have for as little work as possible. They way to do that is trade, no matter whether you're a cobbler or mage.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Fella...I didn't say you were wrong...so no need to say I'm wrong. My Realms right?
I'm afraid I don't understand.
I'm not saying that you are not allowed to run the Realms however you please. I'm saying that I found your arguments about the plausibility of it unconvincing and then I offered counter-arguments. This is known as an exchange of views and often leads to a fuller understanding of the subject.
If no one was allowed to speak anything which ran contrary to another's opinion, there would be resounding silence in the world and all progress would stop. There would also be no point to the Internet. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 03:48:52
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I'm afraid you are right, you don't understand.
Not all men think alike. My reasoning behind my take on the "magical trade" of the Forgotten Realms is just as valid as any other, and will work perfectly well because I say it will work and my players will agree that it simply is the way it is.
It might escape some that modern thoughts of commerce, even the WAY to think about it, hadn't occurred to medieval people. Simply because something is a certain way in one place and time does not mean that under the exact circumstances things will not be totally different in another place/time.
Your logic of an ever increasing amount of wealth equaling an ever increasing amount of power as a case in point:
The Byzantine Empire, arguably one of the most wealthy nations of its time, that dominated trade, art, literature, military sciences and etc. still eventually fell. Decadence, pride, arrogance and even simple laziness can all be mitigating factors in Thay's inability to capitalize on trade gains. It isn't enough to say that just because they make a lot of money that they will invest it properly.
You may be of the assumption that all the enclaves are putting their money back into a national treasury of some sort...but Thay has no such thing that I'm aware of. Instead, it has warring factions, lots of decadence and etc going on that ever increasing amounts of incoming capital gains will only increase. Thus, the increased trade could perhaps even shatter the very "unity" that some thought existed that allowed Thay to become a dominant trade entity.
As you might see, there are innumerable takes on any scenario that will no doubt make things turn out differently in our fantasy campaigns than they might turn out under similar circumstances in our real world. There is just no way in knowing.
So...if I say that Thayan Enclaves won't work in my Realms because they don't have the supposed unity that some think they have dealing with trade...then they simply won't. The Zhentarim, when focused against one Enclave that is trying to start, does indeed have all the power it needs to at least thwart it and give pause to trying to establish more in the future. No amount of logical thinking or persuasive statistics or analysis can change that.
After all, Vienna woke one morning thinking the city would be taken by the Mongols and they would all be put to the sword...but there were no Mongols to be seen...they had all left because one man died and they all wanted to honor his last wish that he be buried in/near his home town.
Seemingly trivial things can completely alter the course of expected happenings. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 12:37:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
It might escape some that modern thoughts of commerce, even the WAY to think about it, hadn't occurred to medieval people. Simply because something is a certain way in one place and time does not mean that under the exact circumstances things will not be totally different in another place/time.
Incredibly irrelevant. The Realms are not medieval in any way, shape or form. And multiple canon sources indicate that many rulers in the Realms are aware that trade enriches both parties.
Aside from that, regardless of whether or not people think about it, increased specialisation combined with trade is the thing that makes human civilisation possible. That's not a 'modern' thing at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The Byzantine Empire, arguably one of the most wealthy nations of its time, that dominated trade, art, literature, military sciences and etc. still eventually fell. Decadence, pride, arrogance and even simple laziness can all be mitigating factors in Thay's inability to capitalize on trade gains. It isn't enough to say that just because they make a lot of money that they will invest it properly.
At the time of the fall of the Byzantine Empire, it wasn't all that rich. It also had a standing army of under 10,000.
When it was richer, it had a larger army.
And when it fell, it fell to a far richer polity with a far larger army.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
You may be of the assumption that all the enclaves are putting their money back into a national treasury of some sort...but Thay has no such thing that I'm aware of. Instead, it has warring factions, lots of decadence and etc going on that ever increasing amounts of incoming capital gains will only increase. Thus, the increased trade could perhaps even shatter the very "unity" that some thought existed that allowed Thay to become a dominant trade entity.
What makes Thay a dominant trade entity isn't that everyone there cooperates. It is that each Red Wizard can command underlings, apprentices and slaves that can effectively form primitive manufacturing lines.
The fact that Thay effectively consists of hundreds of smaller economic units isn't especially relevant. As long as there isn't all out war, it benefits Thayan interests in the world when any of them grow more powerful.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
As you might see, there are innumerable takes on any scenario that will no doubt make things turn out differently in our fantasy campaigns than they might turn out under similar circumstances in our real world. There is just no way in knowing.
By that 'logic', it is equally plausible to assume that a given pig will take flight and spout philosophy than it will amble to the trog and start eating.
Just because we can't predict something exactly does not mean that all possibilities are equally likely.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
So...if I say that Thayan Enclaves won't work in my Realms because they don't have the supposed unity that some think they have dealing with trade...then they simply won't. The Zhentarim, when focused against one Enclave that is trying to start, does indeed have all the power it needs to at least thwart it and give pause to trying to establish more in the future. No amount of logical thinking or persuasive statistics or analysis can change that.
What unity is that?
Canonically, each enclave is sponsored by a single zulkir or by an allegiance of other powerful individuals in Thay. Each enclave is staffed by 50-1000 people (1% of the population where it is established).
Considering that the Zhentarim usually have only a couple of spies in any given place unless they are carrying out an operation of some sort there, the power disparity is just too large. The Zhentarim are just 10,000 in total, with nearly all of them being located around the Moonsea area. The nation of Thay numbers almost five million and that's not counting the undead slaves. Even if any one enclave can only call on a tiny fraction of that force, that's still going to pit a force of hundreds against approximately one or two people.
The Zhentarim would be stupid to pick a fight with an enormously powerful nation over something that is not all that important to them. |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 14:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
*snip*
**Of course, canon can be and often is inconsistent. Let's assume that we ignore the outliers and try to pick out something of a consensus of sources.
***I can hear the screams of nerdrage, insisting that 'magic isn't just a commodity'. Sigh. Yes, yes, it is. So is anything else that someone desires and can be traded for some other consideration. If the physical act of love can be a commodity (and it can), so can magic.
I invite you to take a gander at the OGB, DM's Sourcebook, p. 77. Specifically, the recipe for creating a homonculous (not all that rare or powerful).
Among other things, ingredients include: "the whole skin of any reptile (size is unimportant, so long as the skin is whole), a human eye, the brain of a mind flayer, the wings of a bat, and the mouthparts or whole head of a vampiric bat."
Sure, you can call magic item creation a commodity. One can stretch that word virtually ad inifinitum. Doesn't really mean exactly what we'd generally understand, however.
And the physical act of love isn't a commodity. But sexual intercourse can be. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
735 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 15:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Incredibly irrelevant. The Realms are not medieval in any way, shape or form. And multiple canon sources indicate that many rulers in the Realms are aware that trade enriches both parties.
I'm not sure what it meant by the term "medieval" in this context, but stating that the Realms are not "medieval in any way" seems to be a bit of an overstretch. And while, no doubt, many rulers are aware that trade enriches both parties, and therefore trade would be a rational thing to do, rulers and nations do not always act in a rational manner. In addition, trade with Thay may bring some economic benefits, but might also bring some negative externalities (like being overrun by Thayvians - which rulers would probably be opposed to).
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Aside from that, regardless of whether or not people think about it, increased specialisation combined with trade is the thing that makes human civilisation possible. That's not a 'modern' thing at all.
Specialisation is a modern issue; for most of human history (and civilisation), there was relatively little specialisation, as a high degree of specialisation unrelated to basic needs requires large surpluses of those basic needs (food, most importantly).
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The fact that Thay effectively consists of hundreds of smaller economic units isn't especially relevant. As long as there isn't all out war, it benefits Thayan interests in the world when any of them grow more powerful.
The smaller units are not driven by economic considerations, or even rational considerations only. In my view, the Thayan adherence to the notion of the glory of the Thayan state is very limited. Plus, these hundreds of units would to a large extent work at cross-purposes or even against each other - and most leaders of this outfit would put themselves growing more powerful before making Thay grow more powerful (although in the logic of many, making themselves more powerful equals making Thay more powerful, as they would consider themselves the best placed to rule Thay - ultimately). In other words, the the whole is more likely than not less than the sum of its parts.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
By that 'logic', it is equally plausible to assume that a given pig will take flight and spout philosophy than it will amble to the trog and start eating.
Just because we can't predict something exactly does not mean that all possibilities are equally likely.
Except that, of course, in a magical world like the Realms the chances that a pig will fly are higher than in our world. Which makes that possibility a bit more likely.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
What unity is that?
Canonically, each enclave is sponsored by a single zulkir or by an allegiance of other powerful individuals in Thay. Each enclave is staffed by 50-1000 people (1% of the population where it is established).
Considering that the Zhentarim usually have only a couple of spies in any given place unless they are carrying out an operation of some sort there, the power disparity is just too large. The Zhentarim are just 10,000 in total, with nearly all of them being located around the Moonsea area. The nation of Thay numbers almost five million and that's not counting the undead slaves. Even if any one enclave can only call on a tiny fraction of that force, that's still going to pit a force of hundreds against approximately one or two people.
The Zhentarim would be stupid to pick a fight with an enormously powerful nation over something that is not all that important to them.
I'm not sure where the number of 10,000 Zhentarim comes from. "Made" members of the organisation, perhaps? But that is not the limit of the forces that the Zhentarim have at their disposal - not only would the number of Zhentilar be far higher, but the Zhentarim could get local forces to work for them (wittingly or unwittingly). And lest we forget - Thay still has a reputation for being a) a nation of slavers, b) a nation of wizards bent on world domination, so there are a lot of people that have issues with them. Including some adventuring bands who slay evil wizard minions for profit. Also, numbers are not everything - the AD&D system is such that higher-level individuals are almost exponentially more powerful than the lower level lot. One or two Zhents, backed up by, or manipulating, a powerful small strike force, like a band of adventurers, might be able to wipe out an enclave. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 15:26:31
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I've the feeling this has degenerated into "I'm going to be right damn you...so see my point!"
At which point I'm glad to gracefully bow out and again simply say that "logic" and such things rarely apply in a magical world. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 18:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've the feeling this has degenerated into "I'm going to be right damn you...so see my point!"
At which point I'm glad to gracefully bow out and again simply say that "logic" and such things rarely apply in a magical world.
I have no words to express how wrong that statement is.
A magical world will have different conditions from a normal world. Hence, some premises that in our world are true will not be true in a magical world. But that doesn't mean that you can't apply logic to the premises that do apply in the magical world.
If you couldn't, there would be no way to talk intelligently about any fantasy world. There would be no difference between a carefully crafted consistent world in which players could make rational decisions on the behalf of their PCs and a world where the GM had not worked out anything beforehand and simply randomly flipped through the Monster Manual and announced the name of the next threat.
If logic simply does not apply in a fantasy world, it is not only impossible to answer questions like 'how does my character's background affect him', such questions have no meaning!
I've never read any work of fiction where the world it is set in has no internal logic. Even if I probably would try to read such a work, just for curiousity's sake, I must certainly would not want to play in a game that worked that way.
For one thing, if logic does not work, there is no cause and effect. So a player can't decide to do something in the game, as he has no guarantee that any consequence will follow his action. Swinging a sword at a monster has no more (or less) chance of injuring it than smearing jam on a sandwich on the other side of the world. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I'm not sure what it meant by the term "medieval" in this context, but stating that the Realms are not "medieval in any way" seems to be a bit of an overstretch.
By 'medieval', I mean 'like Earth during the medieval period'. And any similarities that the Realms may have with Earth at that period are so superficial as to be irrelevant. It has many more and more important similarities with other periods of Earth's history, such as the modern age (fast travel, worldwide trade of cheap and perishable commodities, linguistic commonality, widespread literacy) or the early Renaissance (which it most resembles, any way).
The perception that the Realms are a 'pseudo-medieval' campaign world mostly appears to come from people who believe that the the Middle Ages resembled Victorian stories about them.
Just for a very obvious example, if we examine the real medieval period, plate armour was absent for nearly all of it. Knights in shining armour aren't a medieval thing at all, except at the very, very end. Even then, a knight's jousting plate harness and his destrier represented an investment comparable to a Formula 1 racer. It was equipment for a top-level athlete who had to be a fantastically rich man. In modern terms, worth millions of dollars.
It wasn't something available in a small town smithy, off the racks.
In fact, the only time in history where metal and skilled labour has been as cheap and plentiful as it is in the Forgotten Realms is the modern era.
And I'm not saying that this necessarily makes the Forgotten Realms 'unrealistic'. Just that it is canonically far more advanced in terms of trade and economy than Earth at the time of the Middle Ages.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
And while, no doubt, many rulers are aware that trade enriches both parties, and therefore trade would be a rational thing to do, rulers and nations do not always act in a rational manner. In addition, trade with Thay may bring some economic benefits, but might also bring some negative externalities (like being overrun by Thayvians - which rulers would probably be opposed to).
*shrug*
Not all cities have enclaves. But the strong arguments for them are the reason that many of them do.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Specialisation is a modern issue; for most of human history (and civilisation), there was relatively little specialisation, as a high degree of specialisation unrelated to basic needs requires large surpluses of those basic needs (food, most importantly).
Not even close to true.
Specialisation started with gathering food. In fact, the main difference between a group of early humans and a group of early protohumans is that the humans specialise in which food to gather or hunt and exchange food with other humans. Other primates do not.
There are plausible theories that suggest that the ability to specialise and trade is what makes us human.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
The smaller units are not driven by economic considerations, or even rational considerations only. In my view, the Thayan adherence to the notion of the glory of the Thayan state is very limited. Plus, these hundreds of units would to a large extent work at cross-purposes or even against each other - and most leaders of this outfit would put themselves growing more powerful before making Thay grow more powerful (although in the logic of many, making themselves more powerful equals making Thay more powerful, as they would consider themselves the best placed to rule Thay - ultimately). In other words, the the whole is more likely than not less than the sum of its parts.
The whole can be less than the sum of its part and still be getting larger at a pace that the neighbours can't match.
The fact that Thay might eventually fall into civil conflict is little comfort for neighbouring polities if each belligerent in this future war is likely to be rich and powerful enough to casually crush them.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Except that, of course, in a magical world like the Realms the chances that a pig will fly are higher than in our world. Which makes that possibility a bit more likely.
But not equally likely. Or even close to it.
The argument that it is equally sensible for magical items to be something that can't simply be bought and sold or for them to be simply expensive commodities is comparable to this. One is supported by actual economic evidence of analoguous things from the real world (technology that does the same thing, historical artifacts that are equally rare and precious, etc.). The other is supported by... what?
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I'm not sure where the number of 10,000 Zhentarim comes from. "Made" members of the organisation, perhaps? But that is not the limit of the forces that the Zhentarim have at their disposal - not only would the number of Zhentilar be far higher, but the Zhentarim could get local forces to work for them (wittingly or unwittingly). And lest we forget - Thay still has a reputation for being a) a nation of slavers, b) a nation of wizards bent on world domination, so there are a lot of people that have issues with them. Including some adventuring bands who slay evil wizard minions for profit. Also, numbers are not everything - the AD&D system is such that higher-level individuals are almost exponentially more powerful than the lower level lot. One or two Zhents, backed up by, or manipulating, a powerful small strike force, like a band of adventurers, might be able to wipe out an enclave.
In the D&D system, the levels of groups are tied strongly to the demographics. So if there are more Thayans, there are also more high-level Thayans.
Power also depends quite heavily on equipment. And rich Thayans with easy access to mass-produced magic have an enormous advantage over Zhentarim who just finished not one, but two expensive and ruinous internal schisms.
That being said, the Zhentarim and the Thayans are not really comparable in terms of power. One is a fairly strong local criminal organisation with some minor cities under its sway. The other is perhaps the most powerful nation state in Faerun.
This doesn't mean that the Zhentarim can't have local superiority somewhere, but it does mean that opposing the enclaves on general principles would have been a fantastically bad idea. There is simply no way that the Zhentarim could have prevented even a small part of them.
Better to preserve a cautious neutrality, even working towards a limited allegiance. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've the feeling this has degenerated into "I'm going to be right damn you...so see my point!"
At which point I'm glad to gracefully bow out and again simply say that "logic" and such things rarely apply in a magical world.
I have no words to express how wrong that statement is.
How about these words: apply all the logic you wish, magic is illogical and functions outside any reasoning there is. That is why it is called magic.
Anything "logical" can be changed and upended on its head with the application of magic. Therefore, no logic can stand true in all instances.
My Realms...my way...logic not withstanding it. I'm not sure why my choice evokes such vehemence from you against it & your need to prove it somehow wrong. Maybe I'm just not a logical person and it bothers you?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:28:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
How about these words: apply all the logic you wish, magic is illogical and functions outside any reasoning there is. That is why it is called magic.
Actually, in all fantasy worlds I've read or even heard about, magic obeys the rules of logic.
The fact that these rules may not always be clear to mortals or may interact with each other in unpredictable ways does not make them 'illogical'. The fact that Star Trek has left millions of illiterates with a wrong idea of what 'logic' means does not change this fact.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Anything "logical" can be changed and upended on its head with the application of magic. Therefore, no logic can stand true in all instances.
I don't think you know what the word logic means. Something can be logical without being true and vice versa. Please understand the terms that you are using.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
My Realms...my way...logic not withstanding it.
I didn't say you couldn't have it your way in your games. I said that it was implausible and poorly reasoned (or words to that effect). The two are completely different things and have no impact on each other.
If I say to a writer of fiction that I found his ending poorly executed and did not proceed naturally from the precending narrative, I am not making an attempt to ban him from writing stories. I am imparting to him my opinion of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm not sure why my choice evokes such vehemence from you against it & your need to prove it somehow wrong. Maybe I'm just not a logical person and it bothers you?
I'll admit that it does bother me if people refuse to use the thing that distinguishes them from animals, i.e. their intellect.
And yes, before you say it, that probably makes me elitist. So be it. A chimp may like 'Foucalt's Pendulum' because of the sound it makes when he flings poo at it, but I feel comfortable when I state that the enjoyment that someone who reads the book and thinks about it is 'superior' to the chimp's simple joy. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:40:35
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I tried to be nice...
You obviously are not trying the same.
Calling me an unintelligent person is quite brutally against the rules of conduct of this website.
Calling me an animal is even worse. I don't appreciate your comparison to me and a shite slinging animal. I'll take an apology, and you should perhaps take something to lighten your mood. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I tried to be nice...
You obviously are not trying the same.
Calling me an unintelligent person is quite brutally against the rules of conduct of this website.
Calling me an animal is even worse. I don't appreciate your comparison to me and a shite slinging animal. I'll take an apology, and you should perhaps take something to lighten your mood.
I didn't call you anything at all. Neither the ape nor the Star Trek fans referred specifically to you.
If you feel they are nevertheless appropriate, well, in that case I'm sorry. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:52:21
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Can't help the inputting of further insult eh?
Have a nice day sir...unfortunately I no longer find you worth my time to at least extract a modicum of remorse.
As for your quip that I'm unable to discern what the meaning of logic is, it is a synonym of sense or cogency. I believe that what I had to say both made sense and was entirely cogent...you simply disagreed with my own interpretation and felt the need to apparently ram down my throat your views and force my like of what you decided was most logical in your own viewpoint. Perhaps a bit of education into the psychology of perception is in order for you sir.
Again, try to have a nice day. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've the feeling this has degenerated into "I'm going to be right damn you...so see my point!"
At which point I'm glad to gracefully bow out and again simply say that "logic" and such things rarely apply in a magical world.
I have no words to express how wrong that statement is.
One senses that perhaps you missed the part about DD "gracefully bow[ing] out." |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Original Trade of Thay
Topic Locked
