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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 21:06:22
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Ok...
Lets say that Larloch found out about the assasination of Mystra and went to stop it, and he called the Srinshee for help, what spells would he and/or Srinshee use to take down Cyric or Shar?
This is not weather they would win or not, im just interested in the spells they would use. It is often stated that if two powers like Larloch and Srinshee were to fight, it would result en cataclysmic destruction, just like in Dragonball Z, but I have yet to find these SO destructive spells.
So if anyone can tell me what spell they would use that would make it look like a nuka had been dropped, I would much apresiate it!
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 00:25:53
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Vengeful Gaze of God!!!!!
I floated out the question if Larloch could cast an altered version
of this with his 60+ lichnee servants and all the other undead spell
casters under his control. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 03:55:45
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Vengeful Gaze of God!!!!!
I floated out the question if Larloch could cast an altered version
of this with his 60+ lichnee servants and all the other undead spell
casters under his control.
Added link to the epic spell. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 04:40:50
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| Yup...no joke about this spell. Even 305d6/2 (since the save is auto for certain powers) is going to do a pretty decent amount of damage. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 05:07:40
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| Why attack Cyric or Shar? If by some freak happenstance Larloch discovered this plot (which I think is about as likely as a rabbit building a nuclear reactor), he could simply warn Mystra. That's a lot safer, easier, and more logical than taking on a deity. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 05:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why attack Cyric or Shar? If by some freak happenstance Larloch discovered this plot (which I think is about as likely as a rabbit building a nuclear reactor), he could simply warn Mystra. That's a lot safer, easier, and more logical than taking on a deity.
Agreed.
And given that Larloch "enjoys" a special relationship with Mystra anyway, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 05:38:00
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Well, then there is the whole "killing yourself" when you cast the spell...I mean 200d6 is nothing to sneeze at.
Even if you make your saving throw you are most likely dead. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 12:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why attack Cyric or Shar? If by some freak happenstance Larloch discovered this plot (which I think is about as likely as a rabbit building a nuclear reactor), he could simply warn Mystra. That's a lot safer, easier, and more logical than taking on a deity.
Agreed.
I don't think Larloch would ever attempt such a folly. He wouldn't allow himself to become another Karsus.
I'm thinking of a different situation...Say, Shar, who once took interest on Halaster (whose madness was rumored to be partly caused by the Lady of Loss's whispers), now has her eyes on the famed lich, wanting him to be one her agents in Toril. Larloch, of course, won't allow such a thing to happen. The death of Mystra and the SP he can endure, but to be a servant/puppet of a goddess, no matter how powerful, is something I think he would never do. He had never been shackled by any forms of servitude, not even by the goddess of magic. So he'd rather declare an all-out war with Shar, with the help of Mystra (if she's still alive when this happens) and the Srinshee, and perhaps Elminster as well. Mystra might even lift the Ban for this rare and special occasion so that Larloch will have more access to the Weave.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 15:45:23
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| I want to remind you all that im not interesten if he would or could attack any god or mortal... But what kind of spell would be used to create a cataclysm, as it is stated in many storys when powerful mages battlle. So again: What spells would be used? Besides Vengefull gaze? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 17:38:53
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In essence Nicolai...use your imagination.
If a wizard is capable of casting spells like Vengeful Gaze of God, then they are capable of casting other horrible spells that would lay waste to the world around them.
More importantly, remember that the scope of Dungeons and Dragons isn't to make it possible to destroy the world you are gaming in...that is more in the realm of novels and such.
For Larloch, simply imagine that Tam (of Thay) was in awe of his power...and yet Tam felt he could threaten/bargain with the God Bane. That should give you some inkling of the sort of power these individuals wield. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 18:08:55
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IMC, Mystra was well-aware of her impending demise prior to her death (this is an ability of deities as described in 3.x dnd). She then warned her Chosen *not* to try and intervene.
Shar, the deity, is far too powerful to confront, even for the Srinshee or Larloch. Shar's avatar, on the other hand (a DivR 8 power) is well within the abilities of these two worthies to thwart. For an Avatar of Shar, one must bring magics to eliminate all darkness and shadows, then be prepared to unleash targeted, raw, non-typed, destructive magics capable of rending her Divine Shield and destroying the avatar in one strike.
Once again, well within the ability of a 35+ lvl magic-user with access to Epic Spellcasting.Independant agents attempted to twart Mystra's assassination. And failed. attempted to thwart the independanagt agents agent |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 18:13:04
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Strange Blackberry garblings above...
IMC, independant agents attempted to twart the assassination of Mystra. They failed; however, they were able to destroy an avatar of Shar a some extremely powerful servants of the Lady of Loss. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 18:34:20
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I know that it will always just be a telling of a story, when two high magen of Myth-Drannor leveled mountains... But I was just wondering if such spells excisted! As I have found none such spell have been created... Withou the exception of Proctive's Move Mountain!
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 18:45:26
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What it really comes down to the the system you are using, and the amount of homework you want you DM to do...
In 3.x, everything has a hardness and hp/in. Now, any area of effect spell will deal damage to items and terrain in that area. In theory, many spells could be tailord to generate your "Dragonball Z"-effect. In addition, many of these spells *are* leaving craters and the like, but your DM is too lazy to calculate them... |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 18:48:12
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| I read the hypertext for epic pells. (thanks, DM Hawkins) It was very interesting. I want to clarify: by asking the question you mean what he will use from the existing known spells or some kind of his secret mighty mega destructive killer spell? |
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"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 19:50:39
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Well, since this is merely a mental excercise, I don't think it is all that harmful to just go along with the OP and have fun with it.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And given that Larloch "enjoys" a special relationship with Mystra anyway, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
Taking this a step further, since Larloch does enjoy some sort of 'relationship' with Mystra, we might assume that he has abilites similar to the magister or Chosen (or might even be a Chosen!) Now, I'm not saying he is either of those things, but Mystra does have other 'special' servants, so it is not too much of a stretch to think he has been granted 'something'.
Which means like the Chosen, he may not necessarily bound by 'The Ban', and Being Netherease, it is entirely possible that he has access to Karsus' Spell. In fact, he may very well be the 'fail-safe' keeper of said spell.
So what would he do? Cast it on Shar, naturally. 
And then we would have Larloch as the God of Shadows in the Realms.
How would he have found out about this 'plot'? Simply, actually - his main 'job' is to watch Halaster (Ed confired this, somewhat, awhile back), and we know that Halaster knew about the plot - he tried to stop it himself!
Which leaves us in an interesting place - would Larloch have aided Halaster when he found-out what Halaster was trying to prevent? We know that Mystra also 'touched' Halaster just before the events leading up to the Spellplague, and since we are just having fun with this, let us assume that Halaster was either also not under the Ban any longer, or his own Imaskari-based magic was not bothered by the ban. Or, conversely, since we know he at least dabbled in shadow-magic, he may have come-up with an alternate shadow-Weave based version of the Karsus' spell, either with or without Larloch's help.
In that scenario, we could have Larloch become the Shadow God, and Halaster become the god of trickery and deceit by using his version of the spell on Cyric.
Fitting, no?
So would the Realms be better off? probably not... it would just create an entirely new dynamic. Larloch is ambitious, and Halaster is prone to madness (which his godhood could have 're-awakened', especially after absorbing Cyric).
I think Larloch would become just as much an adversary of Mystra in the long-run, especially if he then controlled the Shadow-Weave, and Halaster is a way better uber-powerful madman then Cyric could have ever hoped to be. Mystra's saviors could very well become a worse doom for the Realms then Shar, all things considered.
Like I said from the start, this is a "What if" scenario - I am not defending the plausibility of an event like this happening. However, I don't think it is an more unlikely then a bunch of canon events that lead up to the Spellplague. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Aug 2010 20:19:44 |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 20:41:09
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Prhaps he has one of his own spell...Maybe improved Karsus avatar. Or maybe something....mysterious...
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You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 20:56:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Prhaps he has one of his own spell...Maybe improved Karsus avatar. Or maybe something....mysterious...
Improved Karsus Avatar... allowing him to steal Ao's powers? Talk about powergaming!  |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 21:03:34
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No...Something different from wispy Attempt of Karsus...Maybe a leeching away at the essence?
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You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 22:23:36
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Someone said somewhere in here that "the ban" was not realy a ban, but a change of the mechanics of how to acces the weave. And that, why I dont like epic spells. One have to acces the weave to cast spells in fearun. Soo... if one does not acces the weave magic is not possible. Thats why I feel that epic spells gets a bit too close to 4ed rules for my liking.
That said that could mean that during his long hours of research, Larloch could have re-discovered the right mechanics for 10, 11 and 12 level spells.
That what im trying with my mage adleast! |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 22:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Someone said somewhere in here that "the ban" was not realy a ban, but a change of the mechanics of how to acces the weave. And that, why I dont like epic spells. One have to acces the weave to cast spells in fearun. Soo... if one does not acces the weave magic is not possible. Thats why I feel that epic spells gets a bit too close to 4ed rules for my liking.
That said that could mean that during his long hours of research, Larloch could have re-discovered the right mechanics for 10, 11 and 12 level spells.
That what im trying with my mage adleast!
How is "re-discovering" the right mechanic for spells beyond 9th level different that the rules for Epic Spellcasting? It seems to me that Epic Spellcasting is that mechanic. Further, we know that there are many ways to cast spells in Faerun; canon, canon/variant, and Ed lore.
I'm biased though, because I love the Epic Spellcasting system. Those rules are beautifully balanced, ripe with 1-2e feel, and allow for endless creativity. Something that 3.x, in some ways, lacks. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 23:11:51
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| I like the idea of an Epic Spell breakdown that would allow the D&D game to allow Wizards to "Craft" spells on the fly...essentially on the spur of the moment using spell seeds create whatever spell they can imagine for the situation at hand. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 23:44:32
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Different ways to cast spells? Please inform me!
What I meant to say was I liked the old ways better, where spells excisted that were level 10 or above, like during th time of netheril. That to me is the way I see spells being cast! Or should be cast!
And epic spells, well they will never be "true" Spells in my book! I might be old-fasion, but there is just not the same feel to them, as a good old level 10 spell like The Srinshee's Spelshift.
And to the point that epic spells might be that new way of bending the rules of the ban, well I must admit I dont see it that way! To me epic spell does not have a Weave feel over them, nor do they feel very Mystra like.
Just take the fact that it take no time at all to create an epic spell, but it take a hell of a long time to create a true spell. Compared to each other that is. So that alone tells me that they can in no way be of same quality!
To me it does not feel like epic spells use the weave and that is what I dont like about them! Then again I dont think Karsus' Avatar used the weave either... I might be wrong and making no sence here! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 00:02:34
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Agreed
'Epic magic' is just too convoluted and I would never use it. When a magic system has to have yet-another system pasted on top of it it is horribly broken. The system should scale smoothly and evenly and not have spells that are level 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, etc... it reminds me of the terrible 18/100 Strength from earlier editions and is a great step backwards, IMHO.
If you want a different kind of magic system for 'Elven High magic' that is fine, and I would perhaps consider using the Epic magic rules to emulate that, but as for regular human magic that is uber-powerful, just give me my lev 10, 11, 12, 13, etc... spells.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 01:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Taking this a step further, since Larloch does enjoy some sort of 'relationship' with Mystra, we might assume that he has abilites similar to the magister or Chosen (or might even be a Chosen!) Now, I'm not saying he is either of those things, but Mystra does have other 'special' servants, so it is not too much of a stretch to think he has been granted 'something'.
Well, some of Ed's replies on the subject would seem to suggest that Larloch is somewhat beyond the powers and perceptions of Mystra's Chosen.
As has been said before, a few of Larloch's plots are "so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are." This could imply that Larloch simply occupies a "special position" that is all his own -- and not something that can be easily categorised. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 14:44:30
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@Nicholai:
Srinshee's Spell Shift is a 9th level spell in 3.x, and a kick ass one at that (it's on my spell list currently for aa upcoming duel).
Some systems of non-Weave based magic include Zakharan and Kara-turan magic, Dragon and Name magic, Shadow Weave magic, and others. Player's Guide to Faerun even suggests that the Weave is a localized effect, centered on The One Land. (I'm not a big fan of this interpretation.)
Regardless, Nicolai, I must pose this question to you: How can a Weave user from Faerun cast a spell on Oerth? There is no Weave on Oerth...
@Mark:
I really like Epic Spellcasting rules for Elven High Magic. I get into *perhaps* using it for mythallar construction, too. If so inclined, just d20srd.org , the rules aren't convoluted at all. Pretty slick, I think. And the best part is that the power of these spells continue to scale... It's difficult, in my opinion, to do this with 'leveled' spells. What is more powerful than a 10th level spell, a 12th level spell, a 14th level spell, etc.? Epic casting puts all these effects on a continuum, and allows the player to let his creativity run wild, while giving the DM the tools to adjudicate.
@Dalor
I like the idea of breaking down the seeds to allow for 'on the fly' development (since the rules are there to *do anything*), but I think that it would be difficult to adjudicate. Epic spell creation is hard work (in real life) and *extremely* asset intensive ( in-game time and money). |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 16:26:07
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The Weave spans the entire Abeir-Toril, so creatures casting wizard spells on kara-tur should be using the weave. Dragons use the weave too... they might not know it!
I dont know what Oerth is!
Srinshee's Spell Shift is originally a lvl 10 spell, and a crazy powerful at that!!!!! |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 16:41:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I dont know what Oerth is!
Oerth is an alternate material plane, better known as Greyhawk. I'm sure that spellcasting on such planes (or on any other plane for that matter) is explained somewhere for spellcasters from the Realms. I think I remember something about the weave reaching to lower planes such as Baator (hell), but I'm not sure. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 17:09:24
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I remember Ed going into detail on the Weave and other worlds' (including Earth) magic in his thread. Not sure where though. But that's why we have Sage!
 Hi Sage! |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 18:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Ok...
Lets say that Larloch found out about the assasination of Mystra and went to stop it, and he called the Srinshee for help, what spells would he and/or Srinshee use to take down Cyric or Shar?
This is not weather they would win or not, im just interested in the spells they would use. It is often stated that if two powers like Larloch and Srinshee were to fight, it would result en cataclysmic destruction, just like in Dragonball Z, but I have yet to find these SO destructive spells.
So if anyone can tell me what spell they would use that would make it look like a nuka had been dropped, I would much apresiate it!
Good Question. Leads me to another question. Wouldn't the Goddess of Magic have contingencies implace to protect her from unforseen attacks, especilly since the whole Krsus thing went down.
IMO she was by far the most powerful greater god in existence. I would think it would take someone like AO to catch her her napping.
I still
hold out hope that Mystra (or new god of magic) makes a comeback. There is fundamental need for designated God of magic is the realms. Likewise Asmodeus doesn't appear to have taken up the mantel of "Lord OF Spells" , so that vacuum needs to be filled as well.....
Perhaps GreenWood will have the Symbul take Mystra's Place and Elminster grab Azuth's portfolio. Would make for gret epic adventure and would be fitting IMO. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 19:11:32
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IMO there are two ways of casting spells in Fearun: Using the weave!!! Or Shodow weave... IMO even clerics cant cast spells in deadmagic zones!
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The Last Battle
