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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 19:33:01
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Psionics work in a dead magic zone (which is technically yet-another way of 'doing magic').
Hishna/Pluma and Rune magic should also both work within a dead-magic zone.
Clerical magic is a conundrum for me - I suppose it would depend on which magical source the god itself drew power from, if any.
Before the shadow-weave came into existence (not in-world, but rather in-rules) everyone drew from the Weave, but the existence of the shadow-Weave has really clouded certain issues. If gods had others sources to draw from, then why did they even bother contributing to Mystra's portfolio the way they did? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 19:51:17
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| Rune magic... how can that possible work in a dead magic zone? |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 19:55:41
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| and dont forget the less than epic spells that still cause massive destruction. Storm of Vengeance and Earthquake can lay waste to an entire city and neither of them are "epic" throw out a few "simple" cloudkills and i'd be heading for the hills as quick as i could hitch up my mount! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 20:20:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Rune magic... how can that possible work in a dead magic zone?
Rune Magic does not use the Weave...according to the book of Giantcraft (a 2e FR Sourcebook). I quote here:
quote:
Page 58: ...An excerpt from "Reflections Upon the Secrets of Old Ostoria" by Learned Rundigast, sage of Waterdeep
quote:
...There is still at least one great power the sorcerers of Faerun have yet to tap - a stable, ancient power that neither ebbs nor flows. A power that radiates from all creatures and things evenly, and has the potential to be grasped and harnessed by us all.
I speak, of course, of the power of truth.
Truth holds the multiverse together. Truth is what makes a tree a tree and a man a man. In its whole, truth is irrevocable, unalterable, and eternal.
The learned know that truth is organized into great patterns and orders ("ordnings," as the giants know them). Nothing is true without a chain of truths to proceed it. The simple statement "I am a man" isn't true unless the statements "My father was a man," "My grandfather was a man," "My great grandfather was a man," and so forth ad infinitum are true as well. More complex chains of truth lie beneath all things that are, and all things that might be.
Anyone who comprehends the truth on this level is capable of summoning and controlling enormous power. Such temporary insights into the most simple and secret workings of the universe provide direct access to the godhead and its limitless energies. In fact, the giants of Ostoria theorized that god and mortal were divided only by the extent to which they could accept and harness the truth.
This is the theory behind the rune magic of the Jotunbrud. The runes are not letters (as often supposed), but diagrams - scale models of the relationships between ancient and undying cosmic forces. By properly etching a rune, the caster demonstrates his understanding of the truths underpinning these forces and their relationships to each other. Like a trained beast recognizing its master, the truths then bow down to the caster, enabling him to temporarily and subtly alter them and all the truths connected to them in series.
Perhaps the most important difference betwen the functioning of rune magic and traditional (A)D&D sorcery is that runecasters need not memorize their runes. Unlike spells, runes can be employed at will, as often as the caster likes.
I've often considered it is this very passage that brought into being the Sorcerer class and others like it that have spontaneous spell casting instead of a Vancian style memorization method.
At any rate, in the Forgotten Realms, Rune magic does NOT use the weave...and thus those that use Rune Magic should be able to use their magic inside "dead magic zones" as easily as a Shadow Weave user. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 22:53:00
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Thats very interesing...
Now I have taken the liberty to design a couple of very
destructive spells. Now bear with me, thise are not epic spells, but "true" spells above lvl 9. Any comment are as always vel met!
Melcar’s Final Solution
Evocation
Level: Sor/wis 10
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 rounds
Range: Medium (100ft. + 10ft./ level)
Area: 5ft. /level radius sphere
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: Yes
When this spell is cast, the caster channels all of his memorized
spells into the weave sphere adding to its power, enlarging
it to 5 ft. diameter. Upon completion the sphere is cast at the
target dealing 1d6 per level of spell channelled into the weave sphere.
Being raw magical energy, and fuelled by a weave sphere
it penetrates magical defences and is not subject to elemental immunity.
Material: One weave sphere
Melcar’s Fire Storm
Evocation
Level: Sor/wis 10
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 5 rounds
Area: 2 mile emanation
Duration: 1 round/ level
Saving Throw: Yes
Spell Resistance: Yes
When casting this spell, a vortex of fire begin to spread from the
caster. At the end of the casting time the entire spell area is
consumed in roaring fire dealing 1d6 per level of the caster each
round for the duration of the spell.
Material: One Weave Sphere
Melcar’s End of Time
Evocation
Level: Sor/wis 12
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 rounds
Area: 100 ft. /level radius sphere
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: Yes
Created in the darkest of night, this spell was known only to a
handful of sages. The true name of the spell hidden for many years,
but eventually is surfaced. This spell was known only as ”The
Cataclysm.”
When this spell is cast, the sky darkens, a deep roar echoes through
the night, as dark clouds gather in a vortex, and a sphere of black
flames, purple lightning and dark red arcs becomes visible. As power
rises and the sphere becomes larger and more unstable the roar
becomes louder, when finally the casting reaches its climax the
sphere falls to the ground in an inferno of black and red flames,
annihilating anything in its blast radius. Anything caught in the
blast radius is dealt 25d10 per level of the caster.
Material: 6 Weave Spheres, a powdered skull from a lich
Could this be the kind of spells that Larlock and Srinshee might have
in there arsenal? I dont know, but they might.
My initial question was what spell they would or could cast which
would rain destruction upon the land, but I have yet to se them, so
here is my contribution to the realms!
Again feel free to comment!
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 10 Aug 2010 22:59:39 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 01:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I remember Ed going into detail on the Weave and other worlds' (including Earth) magic in his thread. Not sure where though. But that's why we have Sage!
 Hi Sage!
That does sound familiar. I'll take a look in the archives.
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 01:41:11
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| The "Firestorm" spell, with it's 2 mile radius and dice/lvl damage, is far more powerful than the "End of Time" spell. I don't know if meta-magic feats are used in your game, but meta-magic would make "Firestorm" even *more* powerful... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 03:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
IMO there are two ways of casting spells in Fearun: Using the weave!!! Or Shodow weave... IMO even clerics cant cast spells in deadmagic zones!
Per Faiths & Avatars, specialty priests of Mystra function normally in dead magic areas and in wild magic areas. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 03:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
My initial question was what spell they would or could cast which
would rain destruction upon the land, but I have yet to se them, so
here is my contribution to the realms!
You've still not really addressed the issues of how Larloch would find out what a deity was doing, and why he simply wouldn't warn Mystra.
I'm happy to speculate on things, but this isn't something I can speculate on. I need a more solid premise. No offense, of course, but the above how and why are simply too prominent for me to overlook. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Aug 2010 03:50:54 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 04:18:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
IMO there are two ways of casting spells in Fearun: Using the weave!!! Or Shodow weave... IMO even clerics cant cast spells in deadmagic zones!
Per Faiths & Avatars, specialty priests of Mystra function normally in dead magic areas and in wild magic areas.
It's referenced in Forgotten Realms Adventures too, as I recall. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 04:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
My initial question was what spell they would or could cast which
would rain destruction upon the land, but I have yet to se them, so
here is my contribution to the realms!
You've still not really addressed the issues of how Larloch would find out what a deity was doing, and why he simply wouldn't warn Mystra.
Indeed. Even given Larloch's rather unique status, this is really something that needs to be properly addressed first.
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 11:58:16
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Larloch warning Mystra is a moot point as well; Mystra's Divine Rank allows her to know of her impending doom well before it occurs.
In line with Markustay's thoughts, perhaps Mystra chose the least worst scenario. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 12:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
IMO even clerics cant cast spells in deadmagic zones!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Clerical magic is a conundrum for me - I suppose it would depend on which magical source the god itself drew power from, if any.
This reminds me of Cale's rescue of Abelar's father in the TW saga.
A certain area of his prison was a dead magic zone. There were shadows in that place, and yet Cale for some reason could not use any of his spells. Does this mean that even if the source of a god's power is present in a dead magic zone, a servant of that god would still not be able to wield divine magic? Are the clerics of Mystra the only exceptions to this rule, if it is really a rule?
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 11 Aug 2010 12:27:41 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 15:35:53
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In 3.x DnD, Priests, Psions and Magic users find themselves unable to access Prayers, Powers and Spells while within Dead Magic Zones. The 2e Specialty Priests were 'immune'to DMZs and WMZs, and in my campaign this extends to prestige priests on Mystra only. (I can look past this game balance issue, since DMZs are really a FR flavor thing.)
IMC, DMZs (in the 1350s-1380s) were a sign of things to come... |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 18:29:18
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Yes why would Larloch choose to take up a fight he would loose? Maybe thats excactly what he was mean to do. He might be given all this power, because he is entrusted with the defence of Mystra and/or the Weave. There is a reasson for picking "chosen"... and if Larloch is keeping something, it simply might just be himself... Perhaps he is not a chosen, but more an avatar of Mystra! He might be harboring some divine essence of her's, something he could use against a possible tread.
But why he would fight instead of Warn? No clue... but then again...
Never compromize, not even in the face of armageddon
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 18:44:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The "Firestorm" spell, with it's 2 mile radius and dice/lvl damage, is far more powerful than the "End of Time" spell. I don't know if meta-magic feats are used in your game, but meta-magic would make "Firestorm" even *more* powerful...
You du rialize that for a lvl 25 mage the max damage for the firestorm spell is : 3750, where as the maximun damage for the end of time spell is: 6250
But that spell have a much smaller area... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 20:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Perhaps he is not a chosen, but more an avatar of Mystra! He might be harboring some divine essence of her's, something he could use against a possible tread.
A lawful neutral goddess choosing a lawful evil sorcerer to be her avatar? It's unlikely.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 20:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Perhaps he is not a chosen, but more an avatar of Mystra! He might be harboring some divine essence of her's, something he could use against a possible tread.
A lawful neutral goddess choosing a lawful evil sorcerer to be her avatar? It's unlikely.
Indeed, but thats why it is so plausible. Noone would expect it, and as we allready know, they have some sort of relationship, which in the first place is kind of "unlikely" to begin with. So She might be feedinghim knowledge or adleast letting him discover deep knowledge of the art, for the sake of him stepping in at the right moment! He might even be holding a phylactory of mystra!
We will never find out what he is doing... Or why, but he is doing something... And Mystra is in on it!
Could Larloch realy just be another netherise arcanist, or is he something more? To me he is more than that. To me he might even "be" Mystra's dark side! Or a vessel for her to take when the times comes.
Actually what I find most interesting is the fack that a Chaotic later Neutral good diety would choose an evil, for such power. Why not Elminster or Srinshee... What precisly is so special about Larloch!
Before the end we will find out what or who he realy is, and we
will all go: "WHAT THE !"#¤%&/()... I did not see that comming!!!! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 11 Aug 2010 21:01:34 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 22:20:55
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When Melcars Firestorm is cast, I believe it will issue forth from the caster 1/5th of the overall radius of the spell, or 2112 ft (644 meters.), or 422 squares away from the caster. For each square away from the caster, 8 squares area effected (5ft away), then 16 squares(10ft away), then 24 squares(15ft), 32 squares(20ft), 40(25ft away)... eventually reaching 714024 (minus 4 for the corners you don't get in DnD)... 714020 squares squares at the end of casting.
For a 25th level caster, 25d6, maximized is 150, effecting 714020 squares is 107,103,000 points of damage. The next round it expands, dealing 214,206,000 points of damage. Again expanding on the third, dealing 321,309,000. The fourth, 428,412,000. And by the fifth and final round 535,515,000 points of damage. Across all 5 rounds, in the area, Melcars Firestorm will deal 1.6x10^9 points of damage.
End of Time, (and reading the spell description more closely , I see that the damage is 25d10 per caster level. With a sphere whose instantaneous duration is 100ft/caster level. So for our hypothetical 25th level caster, we have a 2,500radius sphere (500 squares) instantaneously dealing 1,002,000 damage.
It's obvious with both these spells you mean business, but the Firestorm does much more damage.
Also, are both of these [Fire] effects? They both use flame in their descriptions.
Oh, and these would totally leave some massive Dragonballz all over your campaign.
Edit: Crumbs, I fail at math! I only calculated the damage for the above spells as areas, as opposed to spheres. So I guess you'd have to add in a 4/3pieradiuscubed term somewhere in there, convert to dnd squares, blah blah. But both spells would be raised by that factor, so I still think Firestorm wins |
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Edited by - Brace Cormaeril on 11 Aug 2010 22:29:46 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 23:10:35
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Im no quite sure how you get the numbers you do... either my math is terrible or something is off... The Firestorm spell does indeed use fire, has a two mile radius area of effect, The spell expands in which the flames reach in 5 rounds. every round anyone stands inside the radius they are dealt 1d6 points of damage per caster lvl, each round. so standing inside the radius of the storm for two rounds (by a lvl 25 caster) would deal 50d6 points of fire damage! So forth and so on.
The end of time has, if cast by a 25th lvl casster, a radius spherical blast of 2500ft. and since it is an instantaneous explosion it deals 25d10 for every lvl of the caster. being lvl 25 would deal: 25d10x25. It uses raw magical energy.
After looking at it again Ill have to get back to you... its way too late!
Unless there is some calculation if damage I donk know of, or I deskribed the spell poorly... this it what they damage! And not over a milion! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 11 Aug 2010 23:20:16 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 23:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Perhaps he is not a chosen, but more an avatar of Mystra! He might be harboring some divine essence of her's, something he could use against a possible tread.
A lawful neutral goddess choosing a lawful evil sorcerer to be her avatar? It's unlikely.
I think Mystra had Chosens from every alignment over the centuries. As long as it helps the cause of Magic, you are serving Mystra (like the Red Wizards, and Larloch). |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 23:14:07
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| Remember, these spells are effecting every square in their radius... |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 23:25:16
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Indeed they are so for the firestorm spell is 1d6 per lvl of the caster, per round, per square, so with the amount of squares it might be the number you wrote! I have not calculated that my self. But when you calculate the damage that way even a fireball does a whole lot of damage.
Ill get back to you when I have slept! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 11 Aug 2010 23:34:44 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 23:35:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Perhaps he is not a chosen, but more an avatar of Mystra! He might be harboring some divine essence of her's, something he could use against a possible tread.
A lawful neutral goddess choosing a lawful evil sorcerer to be her avatar? It's unlikely.
I think Mystra had Chosens from every alignment over the centuries. As long as it helps the cause of Magic, you are serving Mystra (like the Red Wizards, and Larloch).
A Chosen of lawful evil alignment? Possibly, just to balance out the Chosen of lawful good---she's neutral, in the first place. But an evil avatar? I doubt. Unless she'll change alignment, which I don't think Ao will ever allow.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 23:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Indeed they are so for the firestorm spell is 1d6 per lvl of the caster, per round, per square, so with the amount of squares it might be the number you wrote! I have not calculated that my self. But when you calculate the damage that way even a fireball does a whole lot of damage.
Ill get back to you when I have slept!
Right, factors like the area of effect play a significant role in the development of spells and their over-all game balance.
So: in raw, mystic might, these spells are generating "off-the-chart" energies capable of ripping Dragonballz all over the place. However, they are both [Fire] effects, so in fact quite weak considering the level of play we are talking about.
No 25th+ level magic-user is going to get killed by a [Fire] effect.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 01:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
A Chosen of lawful evil alignment? Possibly, just to balance out the Chosen of lawful good---she's neutral, in the first place. But an evil avatar? I doubt. Unless she'll change alignment, which I don't think Ao will ever allow.
Mystra 2.0 is neutral good, so Ao DID allow an alignment change. Considering that most of her chosens are good (and most are chaotic), it is not exagerated to believe that she has evil champions/chosens. In fact, only Khelben ever matched Mystra alignment (both LN at the time of Khelben 'ascension'), so I don't think that it is such a big deal for her, even now that she is NG. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
A Chosen of lawful evil alignment? Possibly, just to balance out the Chosen of lawful good---she's neutral, in the first place. But an evil avatar? I doubt. Unless she'll change alignment, which I don't think Ao will ever allow.
Mystra 2.0 is neutral good, so Ao DID allow an alignment change. Considering that most of her chosens are good (and most are chaotic), it is not exagerated to believe that she has evil champions/chosens. In fact, only Khelben ever matched Mystra alignment (both LN at the time of Khelben 'ascension'), so I don't think that it is such a big deal for her, even now that she is NG.
I said Ao will not allow it because it will tip the balance. Remember there's already Shar, a NE, who is in charge of the SW, one of Toril's sources of magic. It will appear strange if the task of guarding the Weave, which is a "neutral" source of magic, will be given to a lawful evil goddess.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:09:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
A Chosen of lawful evil alignment? Possibly, just to balance out the Chosen of lawful good---she's neutral, in the first place. But an evil avatar? I doubt. Unless she'll change alignment, which I don't think Ao will ever allow.
Mystra 2.0 is neutral good, so Ao DID allow an alignment change. Considering that most of her chosens are good (and most are chaotic), it is not exagerated to believe that she has evil champions/chosens. In fact, only Khelben ever matched Mystra alignment (both LN at the time of Khelben 'ascension'), so I don't think that it is such a big deal for her, even now that she is NG.
Both 2e and 3e sources feature an NPC known as Meleghost Starseer. He's the LE head of Mystra's temple in Waterdeep. So Mystra does indeed have both powerful and evil individuals serving her faith. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:20:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
A Chosen of lawful evil alignment? Possibly, just to balance out the Chosen of lawful good---she's neutral, in the first place. But an evil avatar? I doubt. Unless she'll change alignment, which I don't think Ao will ever allow.
Mystra 2.0 is neutral good, so Ao DID allow an alignment change. Considering that most of her chosens are good (and most are chaotic), it is not exagerated to believe that she has evil champions/chosens. In fact, only Khelben ever matched Mystra alignment (both LN at the time of Khelben 'ascension'), so I don't think that it is such a big deal for her, even now that she is NG.
Both 2e and 3e sources feature an NPC known as Meleghost Starseer. He's the LE head of Mystra's temple in Waterdeep. So Mystra does indeed have both powerful and evil individuals serving her faith.
I have no problem with powerful evil servants or Chosen. But a lawful evil avatar of herself? That's another story. Besides, is Shar (and her SW) not MORE THAN ENOUGH to plague the Realms with evil? Making Mystra a LE will just be a redundancy.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:42:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I said Ao will not allow it because it will tip the balance. Remember there's already Shar, a NE, who is in charge of the SW, one of Toril's sources of magic. It will appear strange if the task of guarding the Weave, which is a "neutral" source of magic, will be given to a lawful evil goddess.
I understand what you mean, but I think that beyond alignment, what matters most to Mystra (any 'version' of Mystra) is the propagation of the Art, and I think that can be done by an evil person. Look at the Red Wizards, incredible source of magic in the Realms (in other words, great for Mystra's cause) AND they teach their art to other Thayvians in universities, unlike the Zhentarims who keep it to themselves. The fact that they might (probably will) use these powers for destruction and conquest* is not important for Mystra, IMHO.
As for it being weird to have an evil godess of magic beside Shar, I'd say that it was weirder to have a non-evil god of the deads (after 3 uber-evil), and it worked fine. In many cases I don't really care for the god's alignment and I focus on the portfolio, i.e. most good rogues will worship Mask, a CE god. Mystra (along with Oghma) can easily be worshipped by anyone, or become Chosens (again, Mask is a good example).
* I might add that not all Red Wizards are conquerers or/and backstabbers. Heck, not all of them are evil (though probably not many are actually good) |
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The Last Battle
