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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 18:48:14
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Interesting... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 20:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Interesting...
My sentiments exactly.
In certain spots, it almost looks like a very light 'admonishment' by Ed of certain things.
And an admittance by him that he wished he had retained a certain amount of control, just to keep things 'on track'.
Interesting indeed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 20:39:37
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I thought it was a great article. I commented on it.
I think one of the points not explicitly made in the article is that in a shared world IP, stuff that you disagree with is inevitable. Sometimes there's more of it than others, and there are steps people can take to minimize it, but opinions vary, different strokes for different folks, and all that, and if you get invested in an IP, you are going to get upset over things that happen there. (It just means you're invested in it!)
We could go back over it and point fingers and some such rigmarole, but I think the dominant attitude that emerges in the article is the need to press forward. And I see that as an optimistic message in it.
Well done Phil!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 21:06:38
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| Very fine article, thanks for linking it. I especially liked the quote at the end about making sure changes mesh with the history of the setting and not ignoring what has gone on before. |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 21:38:12
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My commendations on an extremely well written and articulated article Phil.
“I would have kept some measure of creative control over the world, however short-lived, by accepting that offer to become a TSR staffer ‘in charge of’ the Realms. Not to stop the various designers going wild with the stories they wanted to tell, or ‘stay on top’ so the best selling novels were mine, but to avoid inconsistencies and misunderstandings.”
Now where did I put that time machine....what is this "Spellplague" nonsense you speak of. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 23:34:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Interesting...
My sentiments exactly.
In certain spots, it almost looks like a very light 'admonishment' by Ed of certain things.
And an admittance by him that he wished he had retained a certain amount of control, just to keep things 'on track'.
Interesting indeed.
I share this feeling completely.
Thanks for sharing this exquisite article.
Ergdusch
Edit Note: A big thanks to Phil for linking Candlekeep's Chamber of Sages in the artice is in order, if you'd ask me!  |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 21 Sep 2010 23:38:24 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 01:43:40
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| Excellent article. One would think that if only certain designers had borne in mind some of Ed's design principles, the Realms wouldn't be in such a state, leaving us looking forward to.. what exactly? |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 05:34:15
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"to respect what has come before and mesh with it, treat the Realms as a real place, and make all changes and developments seem to be part of the unfolding history of this real world known as the Realms,...disrespectful to the creators who came before and to the readers and gamers who already use and love the setting, because they are made to feel duped, or less brilliant than the new guys on the block because they loved and identified with something that is now being ‘improved’ or ‘fixed’ or worse, openly sneered at."
This passage says it all I think.......sounds like Ed's slightly melancholy....about the recent history of things in the realms |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 05:45:10
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I'd say a bit more than melancholy.
I think it more akin to an old Patriot that helped found a nation, to only see it go a different way than the founder(s) planned. The Patriot stays on with the "new way of things" only to try and steer the way of things the best he can to try and remain true to the original plan.
I've said it before, the New Forgotten Realms is a decent campaign world; but it really isn't the same as what the Forgotten Realms once was. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 12:47:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
"to respect what has come before and mesh with it, treat the Realms as a real place, and make all changes and developments seem to be part of the unfolding history of this real world known as the Realms,...disrespectful to the creators who came before and to the readers and gamers who already use and love the setting, because they are made to feel duped, or less brilliant than the new guys on the block because they loved and identified with something that is now being ‘improved’ or ‘fixed’ or worse, openly sneered at."
This passage says it all I think.......sounds like Ed's slightly melancholy....about the recent history of things in the realms
Here is the question Phil asked to prompt this response from Ed,
"And both IPs are still going strong, so what of the future?" Phil then points out most IP's outlive their creators.
To see Ed's unedited reply scroll down to the bottom of the webpage. His answer picks up right after Tracy's.
For good measure read Tracy's response too. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 14:18:52
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*sigh*
Posted this yesterday because it's a really good article and gives insight into three of the great minds in the business. I was a bit afraid that Ed's quotes would be viewed as his disapprovement of Spellplague and changes to the Realms. And I do feel more than a little disappointment that my fears were well founded.
Seriously guys, I don't like what happened any more than anyone else, but is this what we've really become? The old guys (and gals) down the street grumbling about everything and everyone? Yes, Ed and Tracy both put a lot into their worlds and saw a lot of things change that they probably wouldn't have done (or at least not in the way it was done), but decisions were made (and Ed was part of that process) and the world has changed.
I don't know if it's because I took a break from Forgotten Realms and re-immersed myself in the Shadowrun universe, or if it's because I've been enjoying the BattleTech lore that's been coming out, filling in the gaps of their own time-jump. But the step away from the Realms has allowed me to look at things a bit different. No, I'm not a sudden convert to the post-Spellplague Realms, but I do know that no amount of griping about it will change anything. There will be no 'reboot'* with a future edition. The world has been changed. The wonderful authors around here have written some terrific stories after the Spellplague, and the heroes of those stories have the same adventuresome spirit I saw when reading about Kelemvor, Cyric, Adon and Midnight; Arilyn and Danilo; Drizzt, Regis, Bruenor, Catti-Brie and Wulfgar; and all the other heroes that came before.
So, here's where I am: Yes, I will still be debating and arguing and discussing the Realms and D&D as I have before. When I tell my stories to my players in the Realms, they'll be set between 1350 and 1375. I won't be buying the 4E rules since I just like Pathfinder better. On the other side, I won't be railing against Hasbro/WotC anymore. What is written is canon. Future generations of gamers are playing the game now. We are the old guard now. It's time to decide how we accept that responsibility.
So, my fellow scribes, what shall it be? Should we bemoan the changes of the world around us, shutter up the windows and keep those that are of the new world from entering? Or should we, like the scribes of knowledge we proclaim to be, invite them in, sharing in their stories and regale them with our own adventures as those that came before us**?
*The most common use of a 'reboot' by the entertainment industry is to put a new look on the old product so they can simply re-tell all the stories that have been told already. Something I'm getting a little tired of as well.
**Gary and Dave and all of those that were the first generation. For we are but inheritors of their dreams as this new generation inherits from us. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4494 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 15:52:32
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Well said Ashe.
As a some-what vocal scribe here and a fan of both 3.5/PF/4E I can say that it's been difficult to sympathize, yet defend the changes to the Realms. Sure, there are things I think could've been handled differently and/or not done at all to keep the original feel of the Realms. But when my loyalties are tested or my love for the Realms questioned, it's hard not to shoot from the hip and go off on a rant about certain aspects I like now over the previous version of the Realms.
I've attempted to bridge the gab by providing not only homebrew 4E Realms-based material but insight to what is still being used in post-spellplague Realms that has it's roots in earlier editions (such as NPCs, organizations, magical items) and I've been met with some support but alot more opposition and just plain ol' negativity. And when newer people see this, it might seem like adding to the topic or discussion is more trouble than it's worth, and that's sad.
But on a positive note, it's gotten better in the recent months and I think people are either just sick of arguing for the sake of arguing or realizing that it's easer just to not post in threads that don't interest them. I'll be the first to say play in what ever era or edition you prefer and as long as it's civil, I'll attempt to add positive comments or join in a good-hearted discussion. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 16:29:13
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All I can say is 4e is a good game system...and the 4e Realms are a decent campaign world...
I'm only saying that the Realms I was used to doesn't exist any longer.
Ed is still producing great lore, WotC is obviously trying to do good by its customers, but the end result is still the same: the Forgotten Realms that are sold now are not the Forgotten Realms that were sold of yore. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 16:52:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
All I can say is 4e is a good game system...and the 4e Realms are a decent campaign world...
I'm only saying that the Realms I was used to doesn't exist any longer.
Ed is still producing great lore, WotC is obviously trying to do good by its customers, but the end result is still the same: the Forgotten Realms that are sold now are not the Forgotten Realms that were sold of yore.
This is the heart of the issue. Yes, the Realms now aren't the Realms of yesterday.
Just like Star Wars, Star Trek, Saturday Morning Cartoons, Music, Politics, Religion... Name one thing (besides Manimal) that is exactly the same as it was when you were younger.
As we grow and mature, so do our tastes. My biggest gripe about the Star Wars prequel trilogy? The FANS. Were the movies wonderful pieces of art that could be ranked up there masterpieces? No. But neither were they the absolute drek most fans would lead you to believe. Yes, George Lucas is a profiteer ... yadda-yadda-yadda. But, the biggest difference between the original trilogy and the prequels? The fans got older. When Jedi came out, I was 10. When Phantom came out, I was 26. Most fans couldn't reconcile that their brains matured beyond the original trilogy (which they *still* watch with rose-colored lenses).
So, tastes change and mature of the old guard, while those that produce the material have new ideas for the properties that they have to market. George Lucas made a ton of money going after the 10-25 age bracket in 1979. When it comes time to make the prequels, is he going to aim for an age bracket that he knows will see the movies, or aim at the same 10-25 bracket that will bring in new money?
But enough of that train of thought. It's been done to death. The point I'm trying to make is that we, as the scribes of Candlekeep, have this terrific opportunity of showing new players all the great things that have happened throughout Faerûn's past instead of griping about what is happening now.
So, quitcha b***chin' and take up the banner. Become a true scribe and embrace your role as instructors and scholars instead of proselytizing grognards. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 23:54:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
So, quitcha b***chin' and take up the banner. Become a true scribe and embrace your role as instructors and scholars instead of proselytizing grognards.
Bravo! Well said! This is soooo sig-worthy. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 00:15:12
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I wasn't aware of any complaints honestly. I just thought of opinions and speculation.
As for my quoted statement, I was actually endorsing the current state of affairs.
Maybe it is because English is kinda my 1.5 version of communication that I'm getting confused?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 00:59:34
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| Oh ok good, I thought for a second that you were saying we were all b****ing if we said we liked Ed's statement on treating the Realms as a real place and tying stuff together. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 02:03:02
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All I said was I found it interesting, and made an opinion about the message I felt Ed was getting across, weather that was his intention or not.
"Respect the past, and don't sneer at what has gone before".
You know, like making fun of past editions... which amounts to the same thing as making fun of the people who enjoyed them. Making fun of your customers is a business-model that only worked for Don Rickles. 
Ya' Hockey Puck 
I offered NO opinion about the 4e Realms or 4th edition D&D, only an opinion about the message Ed was relaying (or at least, what I thought he was saying).
I actually plan to buy and try Essentials, if for no other reason then just to prove a 'new direction' is the RIGHT direction. I've been voting with my wallet, and its time to vote the other way. If we don't give them positive reinforcement every time they do something different, we will continue to get the same stuff, or worse, NO STUFF AT ALL. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 02:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh, the b***chin' comment wasn't aimed at you, but the fanbase as a whole. Sorry for the confusion.
PHEW!
I was beginning to think I was just getting all sensitive and stuff.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 04:08:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
SNIP
So, my fellow scribes, what shall it be? Should we bemoan the changes of the world around us, shutter up the windows and keep those that are of the new world from entering? Or should we, like the scribes of knowledge we proclaim to be, invite them in, sharing in their stories and regale them with our own adventures as those that came before us**?
*The most common use of a 'reboot' by the entertainment industry is to put a new look on the old product so they can simply re-tell all the stories that have been told already. Something I'm getting a little tired of as well.
**Gary and Dave and all of those that were the first generation. For we are but inheritors of their dreams as this new generation inherits from us.
Little over the top, but I most sincerely agree.
Seize the banner! Hammers High! |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 06:28:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
*sigh*
Posted this yesterday because it's a really good article and gives insight into three of the great minds in the business. (1) I was a bit afraid that Ed's quotes would be viewed as his disapprovement of Spellplague and changes to the Realms. And I do feel more than a little disappointment that my fears were well founded.
Seriously guys, I don't like what happened any more than anyone else, but is this what we've really become? The old guys (and gals) down the street (2) grumbling about everything and everyone? Yes, Ed and Tracy both put a lot into their worlds and saw a lot of things change that they probably wouldn't have done (or at least not in the way it was done), but decisions were made (and Ed was part of that process) and the world has changed.
I don't know if it's because I took a break from Forgotten Realms and re-immersed myself in the Shadowrun universe, or if it's because I've been enjoying the BattleTech lore that's been coming out, filling in the gaps of their own time-jump. But the step away from the Realms has allowed me to look at things a bit different. No, I'm not a sudden convert to the post-Spellplague Realms, but I do know that no amount of griping about it will change anything. There will be no 'reboot'* with a future edition. The world has been changed. The wonderful authors around here have written some terrific stories after the Spellplague, and the heroes of those stories have the same adventuresome spirit I saw when reading about Kelemvor, Cyric, Adon and Midnight; Arilyn and Danilo; Drizzt, Regis, Bruenor, Catti-Brie and Wulfgar; and all the other heroes that came before.
So, here's where I am: Yes, I will still be debating and arguing and discussing the Realms and D&D as I have before. (3) When I tell my stories to my players in the Realms, they'll be set between 1350 and 1375. I won't be buying the 4E rules since I just like Pathfinder better. On the other side, I won't be railing against Hasbro/WotC anymore. What is written is canon. Future generations of gamers are playing the game now. We are the old guard now. It's time to decide how we accept that responsibility.
So, my fellow scribes, what shall it be? Should we bemoan the changes of the world around us, shutter up the windows and keep those that are of the new world from entering? Or should we, like the scribes of knowledge we proclaim to be, invite them in, sharing in their stories and regale them with our own adventures as those that came before us**?
*The most common use of a 'reboot' by the entertainment industry is to put a new look on the old product so they can simply re-tell all the stories that have been told already. Something I'm getting a little tired of as well.
**Gary and Dave and all of those that were the first generation. For we are but inheritors of their dreams as this new generation inherits from us.
Re: (1) Well, what else could it be? Was Ed bemoaning the discrepancy between the death of someone in one of R.A.'s books and that person's resurrection in the WotSQ series, or showing hurt over things that most Realms fans feel and still feel the hurt over?
Re: (2) Agreed. If all we do is piss and moan about everything (despite having a roof over our heads, good food in our stomachs, and health,income and freedom enough to enjoy our hobbies), then we reduce ourselves to being the type of people who live for being in the audience of talk shows and being swayed by anyone who speaks words akin to our desires, even if it comes from a would-be tyrant.
In other situations, I'd think it wise to not respond as you express dislike for, but I think you saying it in this thread is misguided. When Ed speaks, people who love his Realms as much as he does will tend to listen w/all their hearts. And if he expresses even the slightest hint of regret over what's gone on, then someone is gonna point it out, and others are gonna add their 2 cents, juss by virtue of Ed speaking. And those that don't simply chose not to.
The point is, when Ed speaks, people here are gonna listen. I don't advocate expressing dislike of the 4e changes in every thread, but this is not the case here.
Re: (3) The way I see it, regardless of what happens in the future, as long as access to the 1e, 2e, and 3e Realms is available, that's always gonna be the thing that people remember about the Realms, despite all the new stuff (bad and good) about the 4e Realms, even where young kids are concerned. This in the same spirit that you'll see more young kids wearing Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Iron Maiden, Anthrax and AC/DC t-shirts than you do any metal groups that've come after them; this simply by virtue that those groups old records - and even their new records - are simply that much a better product than what most newer metal groups are putting out. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 23 Sep 2010 06:31:02 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 07:44:35
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Re: (3) The way I see it, regardless of what happens in the future, as long as access to the 1e, 2e, and 3e Realms is available, that's always gonna be the thing that people remember about the Realms, despite all the new stuff (bad and good) about the 4e Realms, even where young kids are concerned. This in the same spirit that you'll see more young kids wearing Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Iron Maiden, Anthrax and AC/DC t-shirts than you do any metal groups that've come after them; this simply by virtue that those groups old records - and even their new records - are simply that much a better product than what most newer metal groups are putting out.
AC/DC rules! HEHEHE
Seriously though, your last comment strikes home very clearly. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 20:58:57
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I tried to teach my 8-yr-old the wonders of Black Sabbath last night - War Pigs - and his only comment was 'its loud'. I said "That's early OZZY", and he said "so?"
Kids these days...
However, while trying to find the rock station we passed a top-40 station, and he exclaimed "Hey! That's Emminem!"
Arrrghhhh...
I want to find the rap song I can apply to my D&D sessions - old 60's rock works beautifully - I can think of an adventure every time I listen to that stuff. In fact, I had a DM who's whole campaign was based around Rock Music (he made GH into a post-apocalyptic alternate Earth, with a bit of a Planet of the Apes/Thundarr feel).
As for the future, who knows? D&D will only survive if they can generate interest in their current ruleset, and although I am seeing progress in that regard, I am still not seeing all the 'flash' that a new product needs to attract attention. Dated artwork only appeals to grognards.
As for the future of FR, that all depends - the Realms NEEDS lore - that is what it was built upon. Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms. The 'non-setting' thing may eventually work for core D&D, but not for fans of Faerûn.
I'm no longer bitter - I just want them to 'fix it'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2010 21:00:42 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:07:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I tried to teach my 8-yr-old the wonders of Black Sabbath last night - War Pigs - and his only comment was 'its loud'. I said "That's early OZZY", and he said "so?"
Kids these days...
However, while trying to find the rock station we passed a top-40 station, and he exclaimed "Hey! That's Emminem!"
Arrrghhhh...
I want to find the rap song I can apply to my D&D sessions - old 60's rock works beautifully - I can think of an adventure every time I listen to that stuff. In fact, I had a DM who's whole campaign was based around Rock Music (he made GH into a post-apocalyptic alternate Earth, with a bit of a Planet of the Apes/Thundarr feel).
Heh... I've never yet heard a rap song that works with D&D, even among the handful of them that I like. I'll agree with you on the classic rock as inspiration... for me, particularly classic metal (Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden), but yes, I've also DM'ed to Led Zeppelin; Pink Floyd works well for me too.
Mark: Give your son time; he'll come around. My DM's wife is a big Rammstein fan, and apparently, so is her 5-year-old daughter.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the future, who knows? D&D will only survive if they can generate interest in their current ruleset, and although I am seeing progress in that regard, I am still not seeing all the 'flash' that a new product needs to attract attention. Dated artwork only appeals to grognards.
Funny you should put it that way... *all* I'm seeing is flash, apart from the "about the world" lore bits in the campaign settings; compared with the 3.x cover art, 4E is brighter, certainly more eye-catching, and yet strangely, far less appealing (to me, anyway); and yet, I don't really know why. Even before I looked through the core rulebooks, playtested the rules, and decided it wasn't the game I wanted to play, I was never really enthused by the look of the covers. Maybe I'm just odd...  (Oh, and please don't everybody agree at once on that count...)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the future of FR, that all depends - the Realms NEEDS lore - that is what it was built upon. Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms. The 'non-setting' thing may eventually work for core D&D, but not for fans of Faerûn.
I'm no longer bitter - I just want them to 'fix it'.
I agree, on all counts. I won't go into specifics; I've beaten that entire team of horses to death, on several occasions. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 23 Sep 2010 22:12:48 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms.
Anyone who thinks the post-Spellplague Realms are "lore-lite" hasn't read the FRCG cover to cover. That book is packed with information, just about all of it new.
I like the lore we're getting from Dragon E-zine (I can't call it a "magazine" anymore). Sure I'd like to see more lore published, but I for one don't feel starved, particularly since the whole point of (sourcebook) lore is to supplement the play experience at the gaming table. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 23 Sep 2010 22:54:24 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:31:21
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What I meant was the never-ending stream if FR-specific splats we got in 2e/3e. Although I found a lot of useful bits in the 4e FRGC, I would have liked to see some more elaboration on many of the things sparsely covered therein.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Funny you should put it that way... *all* I'm seeing is flash <snip>
I was specifically talking about Essentials in regards to the artwork. I'm not a big fan of the 4e or 3e Eberron artwork, but that seems to be whats 'in' (everything was influenced by the Anime' craze), so they should just find guys who are great at it and go with it.
I like Van Gogh, too, but I don't want to see him on one of my D&D books either. 'Classic' artwork was a bad call, IMHO, considering the main 'target audience'.
As for my 'flash' comment, I wasn't talking about content; sorry, I should have been clearer. I was talking about advertising - when 3e debuted I saw it EVERYWHERE - 4e and now Essentials are both barely coming-in with a whimper (although I have seen a single ad on Facebook for Essentials, so that at least is a step in the right direction.)
Lets see a commercial for Essentials around X-mas time on Cartoon Network, Nickleodeon, Disney, ect...
It is a proven sales-model - show it often enough to children and they will want it (Tickle-me Elmo, anyone?) If kids don't know about it, how the hell are they supposed to ask their parents for it? I want to see a glitzy TV ad that shows kids moving kewl minis around some 3d terrain, and then a cut-away to a cartoon that shows whats happening (in their imaginations), like they do with all those damn bionicles, Hot Wheels, and other craptastic toys they've gotten kids hooked on.
Toys/games do not have to be good - they merely need to look interesting. "If you build it, they will come"... in droves.
WotC doesn't need designers - they need some PR and a fantastic advertising Dept. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2010 22:41:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 04:24:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms.
Anyone who thinks the post-Spellplague Realms are "lore-lite" hasn't read the FRCG cover to cover. That book is packed with information, just about all of it new.
I've read the FRCG cover to cover, and I was most underwhelmed by it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 06:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I meant was the never-ending stream if FR-specific splats we got in 2e/3e. Although I found a lot of useful bits in the 4e FRGC, I would have liked to see some more elaboration on many of the things sparsely covered therein.
I agree with you there... but detail is out, remember; vague outlines are in. Detail is something campaign-specific to be supplied by the individual DM according to his or her tastes... which means we might as well be running our own worlds in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for my 'flash' comment, I wasn't talking about content; sorry, I should have been clearer. I was talking about advertising - when 3e debuted I saw it EVERYWHERE - 4e and now Essentials are both barely coming-in with a whimper (although I have seen a single ad on Facebook for Essentials, so that at least is a step in the right direction.)
WotC doesn't need designers - they need some PR and a fantastic advertising Dept.
I can't argue with that assessment... although I suspect that the PR job would have been a heck of a lot easier two and a half years ago; it was certainly much more badly needed then.
Still, I force myself to remain optimistic; I check the sky daily for flying pigs, and when I don't see any, I check Candlekeep for more interesting events. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 14:26:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms.
I for one see signs of a more flavorful direction in regards to lore and description--the Essentials products are more descriptive/flavor-text rich, and I think the Neverwinter Campaign Guide--when it comes out--will provide a LOT of Realmslore for you guys.
I like to describe it as acres and acres of story.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Worlds that Outgrew Their Stories
