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Shades
Acolyte

Georgia
39 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2002 :  19:41:15  Show Profile  Visit Shades's Homepage Send Shades a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I know your probably thinking not another Zhentarim post on this forum but...Can anyone tell me which books have a detailed description of the battle between Fzoul and Manshoon. Also I would like to know if you also know the book which the Manshoon war's are in. Thank you for your time.

AraznBlair
Learned Scribe

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2002 :  04:26:35  Show Profile  Visit AraznBlair's Homepage Send AraznBlair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know that Manshoon is in "Spellfire" and "Crown of Fire" . I'm not sure which novel has the war between Fzoul and him. Though "Realms of Imfamy" has a short story about Manshoon.

Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2002 :  13:47:35  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure if the Manshoon wars have been detailed in a Forgotten realms novel. One of the last FR 2nd edition products: Cloak & Dagger by Eric L Boyd, goes into some detail on the Manshoon wars. Other pieces and tidbits can be found in the 3rd edition product Lords of Darkness.
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Shades
Acolyte

Georgia
39 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2002 :  22:28:43  Show Profile  Visit Shades's Homepage Send Shades a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you both.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6629 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2003 :  02:45:05  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The intention of the Manshoon Wars (which was conceptualised by Steven Schend) was to give the Zhentarim a more religious focus (that's why they became worshippers of Xvim), and make Manshoon a rogue, desperate archmage in many, many guises. The plan was that the "many Manshoons" would be slipped in throughout FR future products to be used if DMs wished as further secret layers of relmslore. That's why various Manshoon clones were dotted around the Realms (one was even apprenticed to the Simbul!!).

With the advent of FR 3E, this thread of possibilities was nippedin the bud. There are no Manshoon clones left anymore, Manshoon is back with the Zhentarim (although his position is amorphous) and the boring status quo remains.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2003 :  17:47:51  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Greetings,

George Krashos said -
quote:
With the advent of FR 3E, this thread of possibilities was nippedin the bud. There are no Manshoon clones left anymore, Manshoon is back with the Zhentarim (although his position is amorphous) and the boring status quo remains.
That is not entirely correct. According to the FRCS there are three Manshoon clones left after the real Manshoon was slain by Fzoul. One is said to be placed with the thieves of Westgate, named Orbakh, another took refuge with Halaster in Undermountain, and the last is apparently the real Manshoon, who resumed his position of power in the Zhentarim (under Fzoul of course).

Good learning...



- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs


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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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AulayanDuerf
Acolyte

23 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2003 :  22:06:58  Show Profile  Visit AulayanDuerf's Homepage Send AulayanDuerf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Though in my FR World, I've included two others. One I believe went to Larloch. The other is the Simbul's apprentice.

While my PCs have around a 0 percent chance of running into any Manshoon, let alone the two I've included, I just love those two ideas. Especially the Simbul one.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  02:10:20  Show Profile Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Bookwyrm is correct. I nthe Cannon world the leader of the Night Masks is Orbakh, a Vampire clone of Manshoon.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  04:15:13  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That wasn't me, Mournblade. It was my wannabe -- er, my clone -- um, I mean Sage. Of Perth fame . . . . The guy who copied my polymorph spell.

Jeez, I knew this would be confusing . . . .

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  10:30:49  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The signature is explicit enough for us to make the difference!
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  12:37:16  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote


Again I apologise for any confusion my changing of avatars may cause.

Anyway -

As mournblade94 said, official canon on the FR recognises three remaining clones of Manshoon with one of them possibly being the original (which is back with the Zhentarim).

Good learning...



- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs


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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe

USA
455 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  03:34:37  Show Profile  Visit Edain Shadowstar's Homepage Send Edain Shadowstar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And people say Manshoon's clones get annoying.

Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep


"Mmm…pie…"
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Leona
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2003 :  05:32:58  Show Profile  Visit Leona's Homepage Send Leona a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2nd Ed shows that one of Manshoon's clone was called Orlak II. 3rd Ed changed his name to Orbakh(sp?).

Anyway, he was bitten by a vampire which somehow got rid of his clone compulsion to kill all the other clones. Was there any details about the 3rd clone with Halaster, like how he got rid of his compulsion and what he is doing now.

The Manshoon with the Zhentarim now, apparently have a very free hand in directing agents for operations of his own choosing, though what he is doing now is still a mystery. One wonders what he feels about the second generation of leadership now (i.e. Scylla Darkhope, the Pereghost etc.)

By the way, what's Semmemnon(sp?) up to now?
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe

144 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2003 :  21:41:49  Show Profile  Visit Malanthius's Homepage Send Malanthius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to lords of darkness,(or was it FRCS 3E?) Semmemnon's a completely free agent now. He no longer has direct ties with the Zentarim. He basicly fled with his beloved after fzoul took over. There was even a hint that he might be going -whisper it- neutral.

Mal.

"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's."
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1704 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2004 :  18:49:47  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malanthius

According to lords of darkness,(or was it FRCS 3E?) Semmemnon's a completely free agent now. He no longer has direct ties with the Zentarim. He basicly fled with his beloved after fzoul took over. There was even a hint that he might be going -whisper it- neutral.

Mal.



And THAT alone is one of the better things left in motion from what I (and Eric & Sean) started with CLOAK & DAGGER....

Seriously, we'd hoped that C&D would shake up the status quo snow globe and rearrange some long-standing (and, to our minds at that time, stagnant) plots and put a new spin on them.

Now, while the official line is that only 3 Manshoon clones survive, it leaves the door open for y'all to do otherwise. And, of course, there's the old way Ed & I use to slip stuff in on the sides (being unlicensed freelancers): take what's said literally and find a way to do what you will without breaking that. Sure, there's only three Manshoon clones physically surviving about the Realms. What if one or two entities still exist as ghosts, possessive spirits, or perhaps their minds are now part of the artifacts/items they coveted in life?

Yes, there's more than one way to interpret events, and that's one of the benefits of Elminster and the not-always-exactly-reliable narrator structure of the Realms.... :)

Steven
Who wants it clear that he's enjoying getting caught up in the Realms all over again and really likes what he's seeing in the official line (even if it's not necessarily what he'd have done himself...and that's a good thing)
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2004 :  03:53:09  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Steven, do you know where the third clone is? I know one is still in the Zhentarim in Zhentil Keep and another one is the leader of the Nightmasks of Westgate. I remember reading about how a Manshoon clone is hidden in the forests near Waterdeep...

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Cherrn
Learned Scribe

Denmark
323 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2004 :  07:16:37  Show Profile Send Cherrn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The third one that has been mentioned that it's alive is residing in Undermountain with Halaster.

A wise man from Calimport once told me: "If a merchant puts sand in the flask of oil he's trying to sell you, then he isn't trying to sell you sand..."
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2004 :  01:29:10  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

quote:
Originally posted by Malanthius

According to lords of darkness,(or was it FRCS 3E?) Semmemnon's a completely free agent now. He no longer has direct ties with the Zentarim. He basicly fled with his beloved after fzoul took over. There was even a hint that he might be going -whisper it- neutral.

Mal.



And THAT alone is one of the better things left in motion from what I (and Eric & Sean) started with CLOAK & DAGGER....

Seriously, we'd hoped that C&D would shake up the status quo snow globe and rearrange some long-standing (and, to our minds at that time, stagnant) plots and put a new spin on them.

Before I begin...Greetings to you Mr. Schend, and welcome to Candlekeep.

I for one, am glad that this was the case. If there was ever a power-group in the Realms that need a 'shake-up' it was the Zhentarim. The basic foundations of the troubles that you uncovered within the Black Network provided a lot of potential for Network conflicts that gamers can carry forth into their own FR campaigns.

I was especially excited about the possibilites that are now available thanks to Semmemnon's 'freedom' for lack of a better word. I haven't had the opportunity to run a campaign based on the changes apparent with the Zhentarim yet, but Semmemnon, and to a lesser extent, the Cyricist Zhents will definitely have a center role in any future Zhentarim-based campaign.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2004 :  19:26:55  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cherrn, but isn't there one living in the forests that pray on caravans. I remember how the Manshoon clone almost started a war with the elves because he destroyed a heavily armed caravan from Waterdeep.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore

USA
1298 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2004 :  20:24:08  Show Profile  Visit Shadowlord's Homepage Send Shadowlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aye, and that one now resides with Halaster Blackcloak in Undermountain.

The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2004 :  00:48:06  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why the hell is Halaster allowing a Manshoon clone to live with him? And why doesn't the clone go beserk and try to kill everything in the Undermountain?

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1704 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2004 :  21:14:01  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

Why the hell is Halaster allowing a Manshoon clone to live with him? And why doesn't the clone go beserk and try to kill everything in the Undermountain?



>ahem<

Halaster sends greetings and a note: "For the same reason I once delivered a gibbering mouther unto a fellow mage's bed chambers--variety."

Manshoon's note and answer to your query: "Reasons twofold--I am far too well-mannered to go berserk, and I have better things to do than kill the pets of my host, as infinite and oft-regenerative as they are."

Geez, I'm beginning to remember why I stopped writing in the Realms--the random notes dropping out of thin air around me....

Steven
who thinks it's a very good thing the Manshoon of Undermountain isn't interested in establishing a Zhentish trade route through Skullport....but he wonders what he's up to in talks with various and sundry slavers, illithids, and githyanki..... >:)
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Cherrn
Learned Scribe

Denmark
323 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2004 :  21:19:00  Show Profile Send Cherrn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The clone only wants to kill the other Manshoon clones, but as mentioned in the FRCS, the remaining clones have learned to suppress the need to kill the other remaining clones.
As for Halaster allowing Manshoon to stay with him. Well, I think we can honestly say that the strongest of the remaining Manshoon clones is the one who is back with the Zhentarim again. That suggests that the Manshoon who is living with Halaster is lower lvl, and thus hasn't been "updated" by the real Manshoon prior to his death. The clone spell worked like this: Manshoon casts the spell, a clone appears who is in stasis, when Manshoon touches the clone he "updates" it with everything he has learned up and until that point of time. So if Manshoon hasn't touched a specific clone for 100 years, then it will lack 100 years of knowledge, and levels for that matter.
Based on that we can assume that clone with Halaster is lower lvl than the one with the Zhentarim. Halaster already knowing that Manshoon is a man of noticeable skill within the arts could train him as an apprentice, mold him if you like, into what he wants him to be. He already knows that this person can become an archmage, then why not try and make him an archmage completely loyal to Halaster ?

That's what I think anyway.

A wise man from Calimport once told me: "If a merchant puts sand in the flask of oil he's trying to sell you, then he isn't trying to sell you sand..."
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1704 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2004 :  16:16:11  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cherrn
Based on that we can assume that clone with Halaster is lower lvl than the one with the Zhentarim. Halaster already knowing that Manshoon is a man of noticeable skill within the arts could train him as an apprentice, mold him if you like, into what he wants him to be. He already knows that this person can become an archmage, then why not try and make him an archmage completely loyal to Halaster ?

That's what I think anyway.



Perhaps Halaster gave him safe passage in exchange for being taught the clone spell unique to Manshoon. Now people in Undermountain might be facing a lot more physical Halasters than just phantom images....

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2004 :  17:23:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

Perhaps Halaster gave him safe passage in exchange for being taught the clone spell unique to Manshoon. Now people in Undermountain might be facing a lot more physical Halasters than just phantom images....



Ooh, that is a very fun thought...

As for the Manshoon clones... The original write-up in Cloak & Dagger listed some of the ways to get around the magical compulsion to kill the other clones. Basically, to get around it, a clone would have to become something other than a "living Manshoon clone."

Orbakh/Orlak is undead, so he's not living. That's one way around the compulsion -- any kind of undeath. So there could be liches or other forms of intelligent undead out there that were previously Manshoon, but now go by other names. "I'm Bob the lich, formerly the mage known as Manshoon!"

Other suggested means included polymorphing, or a girdle of masculinity/femininity... I know that one person on the WotC forums ran with that idea, and had the Manshoon that was with The Simbul become a woman.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out a way that I like of keeping yet another Manshoon around. I'm trying to figure out a reasonable means for one of the clones to have taken over the body of another, thus escaping the compulsion...

Oh, and we also know that not all of the Manshoon clones were killed. Some fled to other planes or worlds. There's nothing stopping one of those guys from dropping back in...

Imagine Manshoon Prime, out riding his black dragon, thinking he's all big and bad... and then a trio of hammerships drops down from the clouds and kills his dragon. As Prime is falling, he sees another Manshoon standing in the forecastle of one of the hammerships, laughing at how easy that was....

Besides, who's to say that there's not at least one Manshoon still active in the Realms, but maintaining such a low profile that no one knows he's a Manshoon? Further, what's to say that another clone isn't still active on Toril, but not in the Realms? I see no reason why one couldn't have fled Faerūn for a more hospitable clime -- like Zakhara, Maztica, the Kara-Tur, or one of the undescribed continents. Heck, one could have relocated to an underwater tower a few miles off the coast somewhere (the Moonsea, the Inner Sea, the Sea of Swords, etc), and thus still be close at hand, but far enough away to be unlikely to come close to any other clones.

Basically, there are "officially" three Manshoons left in the Realms. It does suck that WotC didn't run further with the Manshoon Wars, but I'm not gonna let that stop me from having my fun with the concept.

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Ardashir
Senior Scribe

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2004 :  17:40:18  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

Why the hell is Halaster allowing a Manshoon clone to live with him? And why doesn't the clone go beserk and try to kill everything in the Undermountain?



>ahem<

Halaster sends greetings and a note: "For the same reason I once delivered a gibbering mouther unto a fellow mage's bed chambers--variety."

Manshoon's note and answer to your query: "Reasons twofold--I am far too well-mannered to go berserk, and I have better things to do than kill the pets of my host, as infinite and oft-regenerative as they are."

Geez, I'm beginning to remember why I stopped writing in the Realms--the random notes dropping out of thin air around me....


At least they're only dropping off messages. You don't have to worry about Halaster or Mnashoon paying you a visit and stripping the fridge bare, the way poor Ed has to with Elminster the Moocher. ;)

quote:
Steven
who thinks it's a very good thing the Manshoon of Undermountain isn't interested in establishing a Zhentish trade route through Skullport....but he wonders what he's up to in talks with various and sundry slavers, illithids, and githyanki..... >:)



Well, he could start having talks with the Xanathar's Guild. He does know how to manip- er, I mean, negotiate with beholders. Even elder tyrants (or don't they exist anymore?).
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2004 :  21:49:05  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ardashir, from the looks of things in Paul S. Kemp's Dawn of Night, it looks like there isn't going to be a Skullport left for Manshoon to do any business or trading with...

BTW, is it just me, or is Manshoon being really quiet these days? I remember just a few years ago Manshoon was active all over the Realms, such as trying to steal spellfire from Shandril and having all these negotiations with beholders. I think one day when we don't expect it, Manshoon is just going to shock Faerun with a large, dangerous and ambitious plan.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Beron the Grey
Acolyte

United Kingdom
1 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2004 :  13:30:44  Show Profile  Visit Beron the Grey's Homepage Send Beron the Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just as an aside, how does anyone know that Manshoon Prime is the original Manshoon? I mean, I'm sure he thinks that, but I'm sure all the other clones thought they were the real one too.

Simon D. Taylor
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2004 :  17:40:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beron the Grey

Just as an aside, how does anyone know that Manshoon Prime is the original Manshoon? I mean, I'm sure he thinks that, but I'm sure all the other clones thought they were the real one too.

Simon D. Taylor



He's not the original, the original was slain some time ago... In fact, I don't think anyone really knows how long Manshoon has been doing his stasis clone routine, though you could of course ask Ed in his thread.

As for Manshoon Prime, the rest of us are just going on what the FRCS said.

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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1704 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2004 :  20:18:18  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Beron the Grey

Just as an aside, how does anyone know that Manshoon Prime is the original Manshoon? I mean, I'm sure he thinks that, but I'm sure all the other clones thought they were the real one too.

Simon D. Taylor



He's not the original, the original was slain some time ago... In fact, I don't think anyone really knows how long Manshoon has been doing his stasis clone routine, though you could of course ask Ed in his thread.

As for Manshoon Prime, the rest of us are just going on what the FRCS said.



According to my notes and mental recall, Sememmon has been doing the clone shuffle for at least a century or so. Thus, his former mentor/master is most likely at least as old and more likely older still. Keep in mind that each of them has to have made some reputation for himself before joining the Zhents, and their histories make it more than a few decades back.

If forced into an opinion, I'd roughly guess (also supported by Zhentarim history, which George and others can cehck better than I at the moment (back in Wisconsin for the holiday)) that Manshoon's been alive and kicking in original and cloned bodies for at least 200 years.

Steven

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2004 :  21:38:03  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend


If forced into an opinion, I'd roughly guess (also supported by Zhentarim history, which George and others can cehck better than I at the moment (back in Wisconsin for the holiday)) that Manshoon's been alive and kicking in original and cloned bodies for at least 200 years.




According to the Ruins of Zhentil Keep Manshoon was born in 1229 DR, began studying magic in 1259 DR, and became one of the Keep's lords in 1261 DR. He is also said to have no problems fleeing, but has, nevertheless, died several times.


"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda
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