| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 15:40:15
|
Well, are they?
I've heard some pretty silly arguments on why they are. I quote some of the more recent ones:
quote:
im playing in a FR game right now and its getting annoying. were just being bossed around by a bunch of epic level npcs, and as soon as i build a 15th lv PC that can sand p to them the dm made me change him. its the main reason i prefer ebberon, no uber high npcs running around screwing you over.
quote:
Thats exactly the point. You have to START by offing at least some of the NPCs holding the status quo...which is where you are no longer playing in the Realms as published, and in a homebrew Realms. You have thus, overcome the flaw.
quote:
If any of those NPCs were as powerful as they should have been when the ELH was written, there would be no gods in FR. Eliminster and other Epic Spellcasters would have supplanted them outright. Even the overdeity is a cakewalk to a properly played Epic Spellcaster.
There would be no encounters in FR, because the Epic NPCs would have taken care of all of them to make things safer for their own species or specific allies. And the ones that wouldn't protect people would end up becoming enemies of the Epic NPCs who would protect their own kindred, and that NPC would die horribly.
The Realms should not be in the state the books depict it in.
quote:
Except that even WotC believed that being above 6th level meant you were considered a master of your class. Being above 3rd level is a miracle of luck or a testament of strategy in DnD. FR ****ed this up.
quote:
The difference:
FR high level NPCs seek to maintain the status quo. This means weaker PCs acting to change things are likely to include one of their status quo sectors in it. The NPC needs to be kept from reverting the status.
Planescape high level NPCs seek to achieve inscrutable goals by the standards of mortals. They might as well be the weather for all the sense they make. You can predict it but understanding it is going to make you loopy.
Eberron high level NPCs seek to alter the status quo. A large number of them, especially the most potent, are unable to act(by dint of being unconscious, sealed or otherwise unavailable), but the rest are pushing against each other, as their desired end states conflict.
Greyhawk high level NPCs are mostly adventurer types. Powerful wild cards in a potent deck.
Ravenloft high level NPCs are antagonists, you can't really defeat them straight(the setting being horror).
It makes a very stable setting without Plot events intentionally tipping the scales. Generally it involves killing Mystra. Again.
Power gap is another. The span between tiers of power are fairly sizable, especially with the uniques. Any of the archwizards can take on effectively infinite amounts of lesser tiers. Most other settings rarely have the gap so vast. Dark lords have armies and strongholds for a reason, because when push comes to shove, a large enough mob will stop even them. When push comes to shove against the big names the challengers....cannot make contact to start with.
Now consider with application of power. Any ONE of those archmagi can completely redefine life within their sphere of influence(and for areas under Mythals, they have) with idle time and investment. Mostly they just screw around, being mysterious, swatting assassins out of the sky(I've also read Elminister swatting assassins out of the sky through his window while having tea, yet somehow having the time to craft custom artifacts, but not doing anything ELSE with his crafting). They sit on their hands, until somebody tries to change something, then they unchange it and go back to screwing around.
quote:
So yeah, there's an entire campaign setting where nearly 20% of the population has the ability to outrun Lance Armstrong. Bike or otherwise. Never mind that an apparent 50% of the population are effectively walking shotguns, thanks to so many of them being spellcasters.
quote:
That's the thing about the Realms: Remove the NPCs, and you remove the most amount of flavor possible. Those NPCs have entire novels written about them, many of which are longer than any FR splatbook. A lot of flavor that is written into those novels finds it's way back into the splatbooks. And by a lot, I mean pretty much anything that mentions them.
Fun fact: Elminster is the only NPC in all of DnD with an official splatbook. It may be AD&D, but he is the only character to ever have one. If that isn't Mary Sue-level BS, nothing is.
quote:
And the problem with FR NPCs is that
1. They enjoy solving problems
2. They can see most of the problems PCs are involved in
3. They have lots of spare time
4. Both the sourcebooks and the novels tell you that powerful NPCs are supposed to show up constantly to help you
quote:
quote:
how can you say that they have lots of free time when at the same time you guys are arguing that they solve all the problems in the setting for the PCs?
In general, they have access to time manipulation spells, giving them as much spare time as they need, as well as the ability to end most pre-Spellplague problems in the setting pretty damned quickly if they can be bothered.
quote:
The short version is it takes extra work for the DM to give the party non-trivial things to do without him having to come up with a reason the major NPC's aren't just doing it. If all the players do is trivial BS they will likely get bored. The setting itself is taking away options of what the party can do and that is a bad thing. We get that you like the Realms and that there is potential to have fun there, but there is also a lot of baggage that the rest of us don't want to deal with.
quote:
If I'm just going to pull out what I want and use that, then why don't I just use any world and pull the cults, cities, etc I want from FR and leave the rest of the crap behind? What you are saying is use what you like and ignore the rest, well then you aren't using the setting your are pillaging it. I'm all for pillaging any setting for the things that make it interesting and putting those into a game, but I'm not using that setting when I don't take all of it.
You can read the whole thing here if you want more context.
BTW, for those who won't bother to read that thread: All I'm saying is that FR isn't flawed. It's different and not to everyones taste.
|
Edited by - Imp on 25 Aug 2011 15:52:14
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 16:29:42
|
I don't play the RPG (though I do read the books and play some of the video games) so my opinion is as an outside observer. Having said that, I think that message board is a combination of A) People who have never actually palyed a Realms campaign and are simply repeating "problems" they have heard in the past, B) People who have played a Realms campaign with a very crappy DM, C) People who think every campaign must be about saving the world, and D) People who think every universe with high level characters has to go Tippyverse or it doesn't make sense. The NPCs are only a problem if you let them be a problem. Want to fight some high level folks yourself? Jump in during the Thayan civil war, the Chosen took absolutely no role in that. Fight Thay while all the Chosen are occupied dealing with Shade. Fight powerful folks in the regions that aren't inhabited by the Chosen. Have the Chosen leave to deal with another problem (it happens).
The FR is a high powered setting. These people have contradictory arguments. They say it should've gone Tippyverse because of all the magic, then on the other hand complain about all the focus on magic and unique spells in a setting that has had stable civilizations going back hundreds, if not thousands, of years. You can't have it both ways. Either there should be lots of magic or there shouldn't be. It's like saying a light should somehow both be brighter and dimmer at the same time. They can't grasp the idea that in anything resembling a real world setting (I.E. real people, not characters in a game) you simply won't have many, if any, optimized spellcasters. People don't just "know" new spells when they "level". They have to learn them somewhere. In the FR, spellcasting traditions in every region don't have access to every single spell ever created. Want to know about portals and the like, better get to digging up some old Imaskari ruins and try to read their dead language. Something not seen since the days of Nethril? Hope you like dungeon delving or dealing with Shade. And so on and so on.
On the upside, I think we have now found where WotC got the impression everyone hated the Chosen League of Faerun. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
 |
|
|
Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 16:33:41
|
Well said, Tyrant!
One thing re. the snippets you posted, Imp. I think I own just about every official published Realms thing...and I don't own an Elminster splatbook. I don't think one was ever published. There's a Seven Sisters book and a Secrets of the Magister book...two Halls of Heroes tomes and even a The Magister book . . . but not an Elminster book. Does that poster identify this mysterious splatbook at any time during his/her posts? Or is it a figment of his/her imagination?
BA |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 17:03:06
|
| Wow... The only thing flawed here is how those folks are regarding the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 17:11:51
|
@ Tyrant
Exactly my points. I pointed at least half of those, but they where ignored or dismissed.
@ Baleful Avatar
I think he meant the series of handbooks that had "Elminster" in their title. "Elminster's Ecologies" series are some that I remember. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 17:53:04
|
I'm impressed with the site. Mostly because I'm actually pretty surprised that the arguments there are (initially) fairly cogent and insightful, and generally manage to stay on track as far as the last page. Hell hath no fury like a group of passionately disgruntled nerds.
I also notice that (aside from a few troublemaking naysayers) the consensus agrees that the Realms are broken. The game designers are vehemently condemned, as are the authors (most especially Greenwood and RAS), and legions of fans who worship and repeatedly emulate Elminster and Drizzt, and gnarled old grognards who know every canon detail about the setting with sickening precision, and powergamers, and power creep, and Hollywood and modern society in general. WotC earns no love for nuking the Realms, and that forum happily continues to choke on fallout from the event.
Yet surprisingly hardly anybody even mentions the DM. The blame for the broken setting is squarely placed everywhere else even while stating that legions of tippyverse NPCs are somehow thwarting, micromanaging, and trivializing the PCs on a constant basis. My experience - from playing on both sides of the table, in multiple settings, in sessions that have ranged from perfect to abysmal - is that ultimately the DM is the cornerstone of every setting. The man standing behind the curtain is to blame, not the monkeys and witches and yellow brick road.
Gaming can run flawlessly in the Realms setting for years. Gaming can grind to a halt in any setting, Realms or non-Realms. So obviously the setting itself (which is indeed full of flaws, like any other setting, like our own world) is not at all broken to the point of being rendered unplayable. Every gaming table is a unique setting in itself and every DM worth his dice crafts house rules, so if the setting remains broken it's evident that the DM hasn't done his job. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Aug 2011 18:05:43 |
|
|
|
Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 17:59:15
|
My point is that FR isn't flawed. It's different.
You say that every setting is flawed like that. Therefore it's not actually a flaw, it's a normal, inevitable feature of any setting. If youthey say that it's a flaw in FR but not a problem in yourtheir favorite setting then you'rethey're being hypocritical.
It isn't the settings flaw that YOUTHEY don't like how it works.
I don't like that Eberron is so low-powered. Can I say that it's the settings flaw? Can I? |
Edited by - Imp on 25 Aug 2011 18:16:21 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 18:06:42
|
| Your point seems to be trolling, to be honest. Or at the least, it seems to be expressed in a hostile trolling manner. No further reply from me here. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 18:08:16
|
What? Why?  I wasn't directing the above post at you. I've edited it. Happy now? |
Edited by - Imp on 25 Aug 2011 18:15:06 |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4496 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 19:07:37
|
Hmmmm.....I don't think any setting is perfect and they all have their own unique flaws. Eberron, for example, doesn't suffer from the fear of high-level NPCs because they don't really exist nor are they statted out in splat-books.
If I saw one problem with the NPCs it's that they were given hard-nosed rules to be fought against. That, to me, is the MAIN problem of the Realms. Not that NPCs exist but that they're specifically designed to go up against the players. Same could be said of the deities that were, again, given stats because some players enjoy the hubris of saying "Hey, yea I killed Cyric with my own two hands on his plane of existance because such-and-such build overcame his Godly DR/AC with a +5 such-and-such weapons which is only referenced in this obscure Dragon magazine article #XXX.."
Had they of left NPCs alone to be used at the DM's discretion for their involement (which still happens, stats or no-stats) but left their mechanical benefits at the door, I doubt players would want to pursue them for a fight. Espically when they don't know their capabilities and are going on stories, hearsay, legend, etc.. I've also noticed that the NPC problem is more prominent with published adventures than homebrews. Since published settings have the whole plot situated, they need reasons why these events are being taken over by higher up NPCs and thus often have a reason why they're not present. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
|
|
|
Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 19:26:13
|
"Waaaaah, my PC isn't the most awesome figure around!"
"Waaaaaaaah! I can't go around doing things without consequences!"
"Waaaaaahwaaaaaahwaaaaaaaah, how dare there be people I can't just walk up to and one-shot! They're evil munchkin Sue overpowered unfun things! BAWWWWW!"
Some of these people can just cry me a river, already.
Also:
Newsflash to D&D players: if you don't like what your DM is doing, either talk it out, or get a new DM. A bad DM can make a hash of even a great setting.
Seriously, there are some tell-tale phrases in that stuff. For example, 'the DM made me change him'. That is the DM doing that. The setting isn't reaching out of this person's sourcebook to strangle their high-level PCs.
As a side note, the number of high-level NPCs actually creates a bit of a simple solution in my opinion; cold war. Everyone's watching everyone. The moment one of them acts, the others will react.
You, though? At low levels, you are underestimated. You can slip beneath the radar and change things, while the mighty are locked in their tense stalemate. You are what causes the overconfident to cry "This cannot be!" as their thrones are toppled. You, the adventurer, are the forgotten wild card. Embrace that role. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
|
Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 25 Aug 2011 19:34:19 |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 20:00:56
|
That website/thread is hilarious.
While I might be willing to say that the Realms were broken with 4E (meaning: I dislike almost all the changes), these people are insisting that the Realms were broken long, long ago. Because there are NPCs from novels who can overshadow the PCs. That's really their only argument. OVER AND OVER.
Who controls NPCs? The DM.
Having been around for decades (since the beginning), playing and DMing for the Realms, I cannot remember a single time where we even met one of the novel characters. Not once. Seriously, the Realms is freaking HUGE, and those novel character NPCs have other things to do. It never even remotely occurred to us that the novel character NPCs would show up and get in our business. As a player, why would I seek any of them out? As a DM, why would I want to have Drizzt barge in as a DMPC and take over? That stuff makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 20:09:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
That website/thread is hilarious.
While I might be willing to say that the Realms were broken with 4E (meaning: I dislike almost all the changes), these people are insisting that the Realms were broken long, long ago. Because there are NPCs from novels who can overshadow the PCs. That's really their only argument. OVER AND OVER.
Who controls NPCs? The DM.
Having been around for decades (since the beginning), playing and DMing for the Realms, I cannot remember a single time where we even met one of the novel characters. Not once. Seriously, the Realms is freaking HUGE, and those novel character NPCs have other things to do. It never even remotely occurred to us that the novel character NPCs would show up and get in our business. As a player, why would I seek any of them out? As a DM, why would I want to have Drizzt barge in as a DMPC and take over? That stuff makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I rather like canon NPCs, but only as a background thing. A character should have sense enough not to go provoking highly powerful people.
Though I do kind of like referencing them in terms of people my PC admires or loathes. (Massively in awe of Jarlaxle, has gone adventuring with the specific goal of getting loot and battle-experience enough to be welcomed into Bregan D'aerthe. It doesn't ever have to happen in the game, but it provides a goal, and a choice of role model.) |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
|
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 20:26:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
I rather like canon NPCs, but only as a background thing. A character should have sense enough not to go provoking highly powerful people.
Though I do kind of like referencing them in terms of people my PC admires or loathes. (Massively in awe of Jarlaxle, has gone adventuring with the specific goal of getting loot and battle-experience enough to be welcomed into Bregan D'aerthe. It doesn't ever have to happen in the game, but it provides a goal, and a choice of role model.)
Absolutely! I love the novel characters also (with a few exceptions), and they definitely lend flavor to the Realms.
What seems really weird to me about that website/thread (the one referenced by the OP) is that a lot of the anti-Realms people seem to think that the novel characters are the only flavor that the Realms has. Like, if you "must" get rid of (or not utilize) those NPCs in all your games, then suddenly it's de-Realmsified.
Bregan D'aerthe is a great example. I'd argue (and I think you'd agree with me) that you could have Jarlaxle as a role model and even join the Bregan D'aerthe without ever meeting Jarlaxle. Or, if you do, there's no reason to have him "take over" the adventure. But honestly, Jarlaxle is a busy, busy guy!
From that website/thread, I get the feeling that they'd argue Jarlaxle -must- take over anything he hears about, as if he's just sitting around catching up on his knitting and waiting to hear about new plots that he can usurp from your players. To me, and like you said, that's just bad DMing and bad players, whining and moaning.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 25 Aug 2011 20:28:05 |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 20:49:10
|
| Your plot just shouldn't involve high level Npcs solving the problems of the pcs, then? The world is a huge place, and a few characters can't solve all the worlds problems. The realms are enormous and have room for lots of heroes. I've never understood this line of thinking. |
|
|
|
Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 20:57:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Absolutely! I love the novel characters also (with a few exceptions), and they definitely lend flavor to the Realms.
What seems really weird to me about that website/thread (the one referenced by the OP) is that a lot of the anti-Realms people seem to think that the novel characters are the only flavor that the Realms has. Like, if you "must" get rid of (or not utilize) those NPCs in all your games, then suddenly it's de-Realmsified.
Bregan D'aerthe is a great example. I'd argue (and I think you'd agree with me) that you could have Jarlaxle as a role model and even join the Bregan D'aerthe without ever meeting Jarlaxle. Or, if you do, there's no reason to have him "take over" the adventure. But honestly, Jarlaxle is a busy, busy guy!
From that website/thread, I get the feeling that they'd argue Jarlaxle -must- take over anything he hears about, as if he's just sitting around catching up on his knitting and waiting to hear about new plots that he can usurp from your players. To me, and like you said, that's just bad DMing and bad players, whining and moaning.
I quite agree. When it came to NPCs, I was guided by what the canon says; that most drow in Menzo know Jarlaxle by sight or descrip and rep. Therefore, my PC will likely have seen him around at some point.
But that's the past. At present, Jarlaxle's far too busy prancing about bewildering people elsewhere.
He does not have time to bother about one wandering PC, even if that PC is wearing Jarlaxle-like hats in homage. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
|
Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 25 Aug 2011 21:03:21 |
|
|
|
MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 23:48:48
|
Isn't Elminster himself talking abot the "problem" with mighty (np) characters in 3E FRCS?
I think the only problem with mighty npcs is the gap between the PCs and the "normal" NPCs. With leveling up to the 6th or 7th level, a group of adventurers can take out a complete city, going by the book (really, how many published NPC did you see who had ten levels Commoner or Expert?). The NPCs are either extreme low (John Doe of the city streets) or extreme high (talking heads), talking in (power-) levels. I always disliked this with D&D, but got easily around with it by introducing non-important but capable NPCs… |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
---
When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 00:04:32
|
There are lots of ways to play the Realms, and one way is, indeed, to make the Chosen of Mystra the JLA of the setting, who go around solving every problem. But that's only ONE way to play, and it's hardly conducive to lots of fun. (Unless you're playing the Chosen of Mystra, of course--in which case, your game kicks ass.)
I think the thread you're talking about is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the Chosen or other powerful NPCs.
The DM has *thousands* of ways to remove the Chosen from play, and even then, the default assumption is that the Chosen do *not* interfere with regular problems. The Chosen might notice low-level things happening, but they don't have the time or resources to deal with every little thing, all the time. If they tried, their own extremely powerful enemies would encroach upon them. Instead, that's what PCs are for: if you read the Elminster books, they're almost all about Elminster recruiting young/weak heroes to go do things for him--things he can't do himself (which is kind of a lot). Sure the Chosen might intervene directly from time to time during their careers, but if it takes the focus off the PCs, then your DM is doing a bad job.
The Chosen are mostly like gatekeepers that keep legions of baddies from invading--the stuff that PCs should do when they get to that level. Succeeding the Chosen as the caretakers of the Realms should be a heroic goal and a major accomplishment.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 00:25:02
|
| I just finished reading the thread. My first post was after reading the first few pages. The primary arguments seem to depend on either deeply flawed logic (because the same "issues" can just as easily plague any campaign setting), or absolutely arbitrary standards (it's "too" powerful). Or my personal favorite, change anything at all, and it's no longer the setting as written and is homebrew. Completely ignoring that you have to do that with any setting the moment your characters enter the world. I believe I may have to sign up over there. Should be good for a laugh. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 00:44:05
|
Also,as Erik's post reminded me, in 4th edition it seems to be assumed the PCs will all become as powerful as chosen eventually. So what's the problem with there being other powerful people around?
I seem to recall that "Chosen" is just a normal epic level path people can take now. (although I don't own the book that is what I remember) |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 01:00:07
|
Let me guess: the old saw is plied there with the barest connection to either how the Realms works according to the sources or actual negative play experiences. That, or it's unlike every other such thread.
Answering the question: they sure are. The flaws have nothing to do with the existence of powerful characters, though, let alone an arbitrarily fixated subset of them. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 02:42:52
|
I see no reason to dismiss out-of-hand these concerns, which come from a great deal of players. One of the myriad aspects that make playing a game in the Realms so fulfilling is the fascinating characters. Now, the original Dragonlance modules were coming out back when I started gaming, so the idea of our home games being companions to a set of novels was a model I adopted early. I mean, it's *cool* when yours characters get an invitation to Tanis and Lauranas wedding or get a supper and erotic bath at Storm's farm!
But when characters get around 12th-16th level, (Which was insanely rare back in the 1.5-2e days, canon and *most* home games I experienced, but not nearly so in 3e-4e) the 'adventures' they get into are pretty serious. Now, I could say that the "Save the World McGuffin" is trope, but c'mon, it's what gamers do. So what if you did meet Elminster and his rapscallion puppy Rufus beneath the Twisted Tower of Ashaba, heck maybe even still have that "Heel" wand written down as 'party treasure' with 11 charges left? Caught up with him later at a Mage Fair where you helped twart some bad-dudes? Then later, when being honored by the Simbul for defeating the golem-leviathan Ur'shiggurat is a sea-battle of the coast of Aglarond, got drunk with the Old Mage?
When the "Orb of Imminent Doom" threatens to "engulf the One Land in its shadowy-mess o' evil taint", wouldn't you do El the solid of dropping him a 'Sending'? And if the "Orb" really promises the true RSE boom-factor, why wouldn't Elminster show up and help?
He's always going on about how he must "do that which must be done because kids these days don't know how-to-do so I gotta move my aching rear and do stuff". (It's like, ten times in Elminster Must Die!)
So the onus really lies on the DM to make stories that are compelling in other ways; fulfilling destinies, proving their valor, finding their place, that kind of thing. I think that comes with experience, which can take many years to develop. It's a lot of work on the DM's part, too, to come up with things that the Chosen are 'busy' with... my home game is run on multiple tiers, with high-epic, epic, mid-level and low level all running concurrently, so that helps.
Any way, I don't think the types of complaints cited in this thread are completely baseless. |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 26 Aug 2011 02:43:16 |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 04:07:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I see no reason to dismiss out-of-hand these concerns, which come from a great deal of players. One of the myriad aspects that make playing a game in the Realms so fulfilling is the fascinating characters. Now, the original Dragonlance modules were coming out back when I started gaming, so the idea of our home games being companions to a set of novels was a model I adopted early. I mean, it's *cool* when yours characters get an invitation to Tanis and Lauranas wedding or get a supper and erotic bath at Storm's farm!
But when characters get around 12th-16th level, (Which was insanely rare back in the 1.5-2e days, canon and *most* home games I experienced, but not nearly so in 3e-4e) the 'adventures' they get into are pretty serious. Now, I could say that the "Save the World McGuffin" is trope, but c'mon, it's what gamers do. So what if you did meet Elminster and his rapscallion puppy Rufus beneath the Twisted Tower of Ashaba, heck maybe even still have that "Heel" wand written down as 'party treasure' with 11 charges left? Caught up with him later at a Mage Fair where you helped twart some bad-dudes? Then later, when being honored by the Simbul for defeating the golem-leviathan Ur'shiggurat is a sea-battle of the coast of Aglarond, got drunk with the Old Mage?
When the "Orb of Imminent Doom" threatens to "engulf the One Land in its shadowy-mess o' evil taint", wouldn't you do El the solid of dropping him a 'Sending'? And if the "Orb" really promises the true RSE boom-factor, why wouldn't Elminster show up and help?
He's always going on about how he must "do that which must be done because kids these days don't know how-to-do so I gotta move my aching rear and do stuff". (It's like, ten times in Elminster Must Die!)
So the onus really lies on the DM to make stories that are compelling in other ways; fulfilling destinies, proving their valor, finding their place, that kind of thing. I think that comes with experience, which can take many years to develop. It's a lot of work on the DM's part, too, to come up with things that the Chosen are 'busy' with... my home game is run on multiple tiers, with high-epic, epic, mid-level and low level all running concurrently, so that helps.
Any way, I don't think the types of complaints cited in this thread are completely baseless.
They aren't necessarily baseless. I think they show a lack of understanding or a misunderstanding of certain aspects of the Realms coupled with a lack of imagination. I keep getting told one has to use Rule 0 to explain why Elminster isn't there to help the PCs out of every jam, despite the material giving numerous reasons why this would be the case. I'm at a loss of how else to explain that they are wrong trying to say that using something provided by the setting is absolutely not DM fiat overriding the rules.
I do think that some of this would be cleared up with some clearer writing explaining that the Chosen aren't meant to be the Justice League.
Edit: After my last reply, I am forced to reconsider my words here. The term willed ignorance is coming to mind more and more as I deal with them. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 26 Aug 2011 04:23:32 |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 04:11:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I see no reason to dismiss out-of-hand these concerns, which come from a great deal of players.
Just because a "great deal of" players believe something false doesn't make it true, though. That's the bottom line. It's a completely false perception spread through a misunderstanding.
quote:
So the onus really lies on the DM to make stories that are compelling in other ways; fulfilling destinies, proving their valor, finding their place, that kind of thing. I think that comes with experience, which can take many years to develop. It's a lot of work on the DM's part, too, to come up with things that the Chosen are 'busy' with... my home game is run on multiple tiers, with high-epic, epic, mid-level and low level all running concurrently, so that helps.
I completely agree that a DM should make stories that are compelling and fun.
It's not the case, however, that a DM "must" constantly come up with explanations as to what the Chosen (or any other NPC, for that matter) is doing "instead" to keep them busy and away from the PCs. In several decades of play, I have run low, medium and high level adventures without ever pulling in any of the novel characters as NPCs. There is no need whatsoever to explain why any novel character is not involved, other than "they have their own stuff to do, end of story".
quote:
Any way, I don't think the types of complaints cited in this thread are completely baseless.
I think they are totally baseless.
DMs are like authors. Do you think that Salvatore seriously sits around thinking "gosh, this story idea is too epic, and I just don't know how I'll keep Elminster and crew away... gosh, I better explain why they're not involved in MY novel!" Certainly not! It's totally ridiculous!
The only author I've ever seen do this was Bruce Cordell, in one of his "Abolethic Sovereignty" novels. I forget which it was, the third one, perhaps... one of the protagonists literally says to another, "Why us? Why should we be responsible for this? Why not get Elminster and friends to do this?" and it came off as the single most ridiculous thing I've ever read in any Realms novel. Or any novel for that matter. It completely broke the fourth wall, and destroyed any semblance of suspension of disbelief.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 26 Aug 2011 04:18:03 |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 04:22:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
There are lots of ways to play the Realms, and one way is, indeed, to make the Chosen of Mystra the JLA of the setting, who go around solving every problem. But that's only ONE way to play, and it's hardly conducive to lots of fun. (Unless you're playing the Chosen of Mystra, of course--in which case, your game kicks ass.)
Isn't it the job of good, quality DMs to prevent stupid things like "JLA" DMPCs from happening, though?
Yes, you can play DMPCs. This is never a good idea. Unless you're sitting alone with no players, in which case you're really just writing fanfic about someone else's characters.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 26 Aug 2011 04:24:30 |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 05:27:04
|
best way to deal with elminster pre spellplague.... he was busy in aglorand having dinner with the simbul.
hahahahaha
were the realms flawed... not in the way originally mentioned no. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 05:49:33
|
I think some of their claim can be used not only for Forgotten Realms. The base claim can be given to anything... Ummm, let's say Marvel.
That is just my take on why people talk about this for a long long long time. I hate to say it, but...
The guides and info you are given? All this lore and NPCs? The uber monsters and adventures? They all are just details. They are answer on the pleas of DMs who have no idea whatsoever what to give to his players. They are source of new monsters, both official and homebrew.
Few can play completely by the book, since it makes you target for tomatoes. Therefore all those 'variant rules', 'Prestige Classes', 'certain terrain and situation rules'. They are made for those who ARE concerned like 'you know, it is strange that I fight during climbing the mountain without any problems, how about making it a little realistic?'.
All the unnatural classes and abilities that don't make sense? All is optional. It is not necessary to have Incarnum in all your campaigns or give holy relics in hands of each stranger with character level. Mostly it depends on the conscience of the players and DM. Human perception. Cult NPC copycats? Strong stereotypes of drunkards dwarves and metrosexual elves? It is all in minds of players.
.........Was I always so sceptic about humanity? I suddenly feel mad about every man that made fun of the Realms and the Overcreator of it. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
|
|
|
|
Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 06:49:28
|
Quick points regarding the superiority of NPC use in other setting. NPCs having goals other than maintaining status quo also hold true for the Realms NPCs, even the Elminster and the Chosen. Don’t forget Elminster is technically a religious fundamentalist, just happens his religion is not as blatant as some. As an immortal mage with a long scale outlook, what looks like status quo to mortals, he sees empires rise and fall and rise and fall again. The argument of NPCs lording over the setting apply to every setting ever.
The negativity of these anti-Realms discussions carrying on even so far into the latest edition era gets to me. It makes it hard to enjoy the setting regardless of edition. It’s the equivalent of reading a book and having someone over your shoulder yelling “That book SUUUCKS!” every few hours.
Despite that, this discussion still occurring at this time does amuse me, perhaps its a bit schadenfreude. How long has it been now? Three or four years since the advent of the 4E Realms. The alterations to the setting were supposed to fix or at least mitigate most of these problems. What was it all for then, random soap opera pantheon, Spellplague and cataclysmic blue fire, a whole hundred years passing with a hand wave.
The perception of a flawed setting persists as strong as ever. The people who feel this way are not limited to the above forum. They are all over the main Wizards forums, just read any thread (outside of the actual FR areas) asking about the Realms or asking which setting (FR, Eberron, Dark Sun, etc. ) to run. I think these folk have gotten more numerous and vocal, while the numbers of active Realms fans trying to point out relevant information to dispel the misperceptions have shrunk.
Doesn’t matter either way, all arguments contrary to the Realms being a flawed, broken, NPC overrun setting fall flat since Wizards sided strongly with the flaw side. Their actions with the new setting edition enabled the people who believe there are setting flaws. This is what happens when even the company and designers buy into the argument of the detractors.
Smarter companies typically cover up and fix any flaws discreetly (errata, updated stats, reinterpreted lore), “Here’s some stats for the Elminster at different levels of play (Mid-level, Near-Epic, or whatever)”. More radically they could go for the Dominos Pizza approach, full apology with a promise for improvement, “We’re sorry everyone, we stat’ed up the NPCs too high. Since most games are only between level 1 and 13, here’s a version of Elminster that’s actually a relevant and useful NPC advisor for that.”
People are saying it’s the bad DMs to blame. I don’t think so. This problem with the Realms is prevalent enough to warrant some credence. There must be some trouble getting across the appropriate information and setting flavor/character to a whole segment of gamers. This rests squarely on the shoulders of the game company and the designers. Everyone’s personal preferences aside, Eberron was a well written setting that relayed its atmosphere and tone with admirable precision and clarity. Eberron takes into account lessons learned from FR’s publication, but the designers never applied the good format and presentation of Eberron to the Realms.
I think it’s a good step to help make apparent what the Realms as a game setting is all about, which I have to say gets helter-skelter and nebulous at times even being familiar with it for years. Saying the Realms is a little of everything doesn’t fly. Technically Eberron or any other setting can encompass more than their portrayed sub-genre and atmosphere, but they stated where they began. This is a problem I see repeated on various forums, even into the 4e era.
Flaws or not, there is definitely a perception problem. I think it all goes back to a weakness in presentation. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4704 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 07:24:18
|
| I keep looking at this, it might not be fully DM fault. Players reaching higher levels get bored with killing dragons and liches. While in general there are no level limits, it is often advised not to play the higher levels. More work for the DM and players want something powerful to attack. The named NPCs in general are to be background, not active targets or friends of the PC party. An interaction with a Chosen, should tend to be along the lines of "You might take on this task" |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 10:22:15
|
In twelve years of play, I actually had once a character beyond level ten: Some 17th or 18th level Wizard (who really kicked ass!), whom I rolled up at level 13 or 14 (since I joined a group in the mid of sth they used to call "campaign"). I also managed only once to be DM for a group with characters at level 15 or so (they started at level 3, iirc). My character with 2nd most levels was level 9 (and I really miss him ;( ).
So, yes, NPCs in the epics are a bit overpowered to me. But nobody is forced to introduce them to any campaign (and you really don't need that damn rule-0, really!).
Anyways, they just seem overpowered, because they look like monsters in the mechanics:
Everyone you're talking to has some four or five levels (often in npc-classes). Nearly everything beyond CL 5 or 6 is a monster. For about ten or fifteen levels. There, at maybe CL 15-20 (and above, of course) the NPCs are present again - looking like dragons or liches whom the Players oppose. But this time they're not the bad, but the good guys, reversing the view the players have (technically they look like monsters, but are heroes). It's just because we've got enemys at all CLs, but not friends at all CLs. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
---
When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Are the Realms flawed?
Topic Locked
