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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 10:32:46
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| I can't say I entirely understand this scroll (not being super familiar with DnD, because I'm just a novels fan) and the one at the other place, but the word "splatbook" is really fun to say. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 12:15:02
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quote:
The named NPCs in general are to be background, not active targets or friends of the PC party. An interaction with a Chosen, should tend to be along the lines of "You might take on this task"
I don't agree. Why would they have stats then?
In default D&D it is insisted that the PCs are the good guys. You can of course play evil campaigns and in this case you can fight the good NPCs. Heck, even if the PCs ARE the good guys there's nothing stopping them from fighting Elminster or Simbul in case that there's an misunderstanding or conflict of interests. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 13:17:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
The named NPCs in general are to be background, not active targets or friends of the PC party. An interaction with a Chosen, should tend to be along the lines of "You might take on this task"
I don't agree. Why would they have stats then?
In default D&D it is insisted that the PCs are the good guys. You can of course play evil campaigns and in this case you can fight the good NPCs. Heck, even if the PCs ARE the good guys there's nothing stopping them from fighting Elminster or Simbul in case that there's an misunderstanding or conflict of interests.
They have stats because WotC listened to that small portion of gamers that feel everything and everyone in a game setting exists for them to fight.
In 2E, most NPCs had only abbreviated statblocks, just the bare minimum of info -- for example, it would say Bahb the Fighter (hm F7, STR18/00, CON 17). That was it -- race, gender, class and level, and any stats 16 or higher. And most monster descriptions included info on monster lairs, how they interacted with others of their kind, their ecological impact, and what use you could get out of various body parts after killing them. In 3E, this changed to page-long stats for Random NPC #4, and nothing in monster descriptions that wasn't relevant to killing them. And this has continued into 4E.
So it's a change of culture at WotC, catering to those who care more about rollplaying than roleplaying. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 14:31:18
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With the exception of your stated view on the importance of DM input to the creative process, you are incorrect on all fronts, Eltheron. You might consider a well-reasoned response in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I see no reason to dismiss out-of-hand these concerns, which come from a great deal of players.
Just because a "great deal of" players believe something false doesn't make it true, though. That's the bottom line. It's a completely false perception spread through a misunderstanding.
quote:
So the onus really lies on the DM to make stories that are compelling in other ways; fulfilling destinies, proving their valor, finding their place, that kind of thing. I think that comes with experience, which can take many years to develop. It's a lot of work on the DM's part, too, to come up with things that the Chosen are 'busy' with... my home game is run on multiple tiers, with high-epic, epic, mid-level and low level all running concurrently, so that helps.
I completely agree that a DM should make stories that are compelling and fun.
It's not the case, however, that a DM "must" constantly come up with explanations as to what the Chosen (or any other NPC, for that matter) is doing "instead" to keep them busy and away from the PCs. In several decades of play, I have run low, medium and high level adventures without ever pulling in any of the novel characters as NPCs. There is no need whatsoever to explain why any novel character is not involved, other than "they have their own stuff to do, end of story".
quote:
Any way, I don't think the types of complaints cited in this thread are completely baseless.
I think they are totally baseless.
DMs are like authors. Do you think that Salvatore seriously sits around thinking "gosh, this story idea is too epic, and I just don't know how I'll keep Elminster and crew away... gosh, I better explain why they're not involved in MY novel!" Certainly not! It's totally ridiculous!
The only author I've ever seen do this was Bruce Cordell, in one of his "Abolethic Sovereignty" novels. I forget which it was, the third one, perhaps... one of the protagonists literally says to another, "Why us? Why should we be responsible for this? Why not get Elminster and friends to do this?" and it came off as the single most ridiculous thing I've ever read in any Realms novel. Or any novel for that matter. It completely broke the fourth wall, and destroyed any semblance of suspension of disbelief.
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 14:41:41
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Unless you have some evidence to support these clearly erroneous claims, Rupe, you might consider offering the caveat that this is "you opinion". Less knowledgable scribes might see this and think it fact, due to your moderator status.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
The named NPCs in general are to be background, not active targets or friends of the PC party. An interaction with a Chosen, should tend to be along the lines of "You might take on this task"
I don't agree. Why would they have stats then?
In default D&D it is insisted that the PCs are the good guys. You can of course play evil campaigns and in this case you can fight the good NPCs. Heck, even if the PCs ARE the good guys there's nothing stopping them from fighting Elminster or Simbul in case that there's an misunderstanding or conflict of interests.
They have stats because WotC listened to that small portion of gamers that feel everything and everyone in a game setting exists for them to fight.
In 2E, most NPCs had only abbreviated statblocks, just the bare minimum of info -- for example, it would say Bahb the Fighter (hm F7, STR18/00, CON 17). That was it -- race, gender, class and level, and any stats 16 or higher. And most monster descriptions included info on monster lairs, how they interacted with others of their kind, their ecological impact, and what use you could get out of various body parts after killing them. In 3E, this changed to page-long stats for Random NPC #4, and nothing in monster descriptions that wasn't relevant to killing them. And this has continued into 4E.
So it's a change of culture at WotC, catering to those who care more about rollplaying than roleplaying.
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4496 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 15:00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...In 3E, this changed to page-long stats for Random NPC #4, and nothing in monster descriptions that wasn't relevant to killing them. And this has continued into 4E.
So it's a change of culture at WotC, catering to those who care more about rollplaying than roleplaying.
Yes it was the standard norm for them to put up full stat-blocks for almost anyone you meet in an adventure or splat-book, which I feel isn't necessary. Espically when their stat blocks were consistantly incorrect with RAW (rules-as-written). Sometimes they were given too few or too many feats, too few or too many skill ranks, or sometimes the mechanics didn't function correctly.
4E continuted this trend to a point, but it's definitly not as bad as before. For example, in the FRCG and the description of Loudwater there is the decription for multiple NPCs yet only 1 stat block for the one the PCs have an adventure against. As long as there is a direct resaon FOR those stat blocks, then I think it falls on the DM to generate them as they see fit. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 15:31:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
With the exception of your stated view on the importance of DM input to the creative process, you are incorrect on all fronts, Eltheron. You might consider a well-reasoned response in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Unless you have some evidence to support these clearly erroneous claims, Rupe, you might consider offering the caveat that this is "you opinion". Less knowledgable scribes might see this and think it fact, due to your moderator status.
Mods?
Seriously... Those two posts are very inappropriate and rude... |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 15:45:51
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| Personally, I find Eltheron's dismissal of a great deal of players concerns inappropriate, and Rupert's personal assessment of the design teams inner workings passed off as fact equally so. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 15:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Personally, I find Eltheron's dismissal of a great deal of players concerns inappropriate, and Rupert's personal assessment of the design teams inner workings passed off as fact equally so.
I thought it was obvious Rupert's post was an opinion. And the inner workings of TSR (WotC) design teams gave us Heroes' Lorebook, Dragon magazine articles stating characters found only in novels, video games, or movies. AND stats for deities & demigods....so players could ,in theory, pound on them.
As a player of the game & reader of the novels for a few decades I blame Gygax for everything! |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - Bakra on 26 Aug 2011 15:55:37 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 16:39:00
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The detailed stats began when Ed too-kindly gave in to readers' curiosity in 1986 (Dragon #110). Regardless of the details of TSR and Wizards practices on that front, we know he'd have preferred to give them only for opponents in modules.
Distinguishing poses and confidently, blindly repeated third-hand internet talking points, which aren't based on or answerable to facts or experience, from genuine concerns is rarely hard. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 17:13:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
With the exception of your stated view on the importance of DM input to the creative process, you are incorrect on all fronts, Eltheron. You might consider a well-reasoned response in the future.
That's it? Just "nuh uh!" from you?
Perhaps you should address what I said, if you think it was wrong.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 26 Aug 2011 17:48:40 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 17:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
The named NPCs in general are to be background, not active targets or friends of the PC party. An interaction with a Chosen, should tend to be along the lines of "You might take on this task"
I don't agree. Why would they have stats then?
In default D&D it is insisted that the PCs are the good guys. You can of course play evil campaigns and in this case you can fight the good NPCs. Heck, even if the PCs ARE the good guys there's nothing stopping them from fighting Elminster or Simbul in case that there's an misunderstanding or conflict of interests.
Well, very early in D&D they (Gygax and company) would stat up even some of the gods. You can see this even in pre-1E D&D. The stated reason for this was simply to give people an idea of relative power levels, but it almost immediately became a munchkin-fest of "ooh, we can confront the gods and take their stuff!".
It has a lot to do, I think, with people who prefer "encounter-style" D&D and Monty Haulism versus those who prefer deep storylines with rich roleplaying plots. Rather than getting involved in a complex campaign, they'll roll-up characters and just engage in one-shot fights with Drizzt, Elminster, or even a deity. If they've power-bloated and min-maxed enough, they'll "win" and then usually brag about how "awesome" they are. How this is "fun" is beyond me, but it is what some people like to do and it's a legitimate way to play D&D. *shrug*
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 26 Aug 2011 17:23:30 |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 17:41:34
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It is my opinion that the concerns of these players are not baseless. These peoples opinions are just as valid as any other. To state that these opinions are "bottom-line wrong", is incorrect.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
With the exception of your stated view on the importance of DM input to the creative process, you are incorrect on all fronts, Eltheron. You might consider a well-reasoned response in the future.
That's it? Just "nuh uh!" from you?
Perhaps you should address what I said, if you think it was wrong.
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 17:49:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
It is my opinion that the concerns of these players are not baseless. These peoples opinions are just as valid as any other. To state that these opinions are "bottom-line wrong", is incorrect.
I don't care if it's one person or a bunch of people who go around believing or saying something that's wrong. I'll say it again: just because an entire group believes something wrong, it doesn't make them right.
In life, not just gaming, there are plenty of wrong-headed, dumb, stupid beliefs out there that people will cling to furiously and endorse proudly. Anyone can have an opinion, but not all opinions are worthwhile, logical, or valid. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Gouf
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 17:58:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
"Waaaaah, my PC isn't the most awesome figure around!"
"Waaaaaaaah! I can't go around doing things without consequences!"
"Waaaaaahwaaaaaahwaaaaaaaah, how dare there be people I can't just walk up to and one-shot! They're evil munchkin Sue overpowered unfun things! BAWWWWW!"
Some of these people can just cry me a river, already.
Thank you truly for typing my exact thoughts.
I also agree with Arik, a DM sets or breaks the world he runs, any world.
I guess, I have had an ongoing problem with would be power players who uber stack characters to compensate for the lack of power or control they have in their real world lives.
It's just sad, because they are missing the point. Role playing is becoming someone else. Living a pseudo life for a few hours to embrace new ideas and interact with your friends. Not power stacking your uber character like he escaped from Dragon Ball.
It may sound soap opera-ish, but here's a concept: character developement
I've had the fortune of having gamed with groups of players that ran entire 8-10 hour sessions of pure character interaction and development that didn't involve dice. Exploring a character at first level can be just as enjoyable as exploring one at a higher level. This is what brings a character to life.
Which brings me back on target. The chosen are high level characters that PC's will most likely never meet. A dozen people in 6 billion. And those 6 billion all have their own tales and stories as well.
If players are honestly starting as first level characters, they shouldn't be even capable of appearing on the chosen's radar for years of role playing, let alone challenge them.
We are going on the 5th years of our currant campaign, we all started at 1st level and are now ranging from levels 8-10, we only encountered the chosen at all when we went through FRE3 Waterdeep. They have had no impact on our character developement, and none of us feel repressed by their presence. They are just cool background flavoring.
That's what makes the realms different than Dragon Lance. In the realms, any character can be somebody to other people. In Dragon Lance, the world had been saved,and your PC's weren't part of it. That's what made Dragon Lance great novels, but a poor roleplaying world. The realms is still very much an open book. A local mage who becomes a hero to his village is in his own way, just as important as Elminster or any of the chosen to those he saved/helped.
JMHO
(gets off soap box) |
"Why is the torch burning blue?" |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 18:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Gouf
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
"Waaaaah, my PC isn't the most awesome figure around!"
"Waaaaaaaah! I can't go around doing things without consequences!"
"Waaaaaahwaaaaaahwaaaaaaaah, how dare there be people I can't just walk up to and one-shot! They're evil munchkin Sue overpowered unfun things! BAWWWWW!"
Some of these people can just cry me a river, already.
Thank you truly for typing my exact thoughts.
I also agree with Arik, a DM sets or breaks the world he runs, any world.
I guess, I have had an ongoing problem with would be power players who uber stack characters to compensate for the lack of power or control they have in their real world lives.
It's just sad, because they are missing the point. Role playing is becoming someone else. Living a pseudo life for a few hours to embrace new ideas and interact with your friends. Not power stacking your uber character like he escaped from Dragon Ball.
It may sound soap opera-ish, but here's a concept: character developement
I've had the fortune of having gamed with groups of players that ran entire 8-10 hour sessions of pure character interaction and development that didn't involve dice. Exploring a character at first level can be just as enjoyable as exploring one at a higher level. This is what brings a character to life.
Which brings me back on target. The chosen are high level characters that PC's will most likely never meet. A dozen people in 6 billion. And those 6 billion all have their own tales and stories as well.
If players are honestly starting as first level characters, they shouldn't be even capable of appearing on the chosen's radar for years of role playing, let alone challenge them.
We are going on the 5th years of our currant campaign, we all started at 1st level and are now ranging from levels 8-10, we only encountered the chosen at all when we went through FRE3 Waterdeep. They have had no impact on our character developement, and none of us feel repressed by their presence. They are just cool background flavoring.
That's what makes the realms different than Dragon Lance. In the realms, any character can be somebody to other people. In Dragon Lance, the world had been saved,and your PC's weren't part of it. That's what made Dragon Lance great novels, but a poor roleplaying world. The realms is still very much an open book. A local mage who becomes a hero to his village is in his own way, just as important as Elminster or any of the chosen to those he saved/helped.
JMHO
(gets off soap box)
Very well said Gouf  |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 18:26:54
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Eltheron, you are again incorrect, and clearly hold "wrong-headed, dumb and stupid" beliefs in this regard. Thank you for advocating for those who point out these "wrong-headed, dumb and stupid" views in others.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
It is my opinion that the concerns of these players are not baseless. These peoples opinions are just as valid as any other. To state that these opinions are "bottom-line wrong", is incorrect.
I don't care if it's one person or a bunch of people who go around believing or saying something that's wrong. I'll say it again: just because an entire group believes something wrong, it doesn't make them right.
In life, not just gaming, there are plenty of wrong-headed, dumb, stupid beliefs out there that people will cling to furiously and endorse proudly. Anyone can have an opinion, but not all opinions are worthwhile, logical, or valid.
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 18:37:27
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I find it very interesting that you advocate the negative group opinion of the other website, yet the consensus here is against you. Oh well, you're of course entitled to any opinion you wish, whether it's supported or not.
And just to be clear, since you like to twist things:
Anyone who believes that the Realms setting is flawed by having epic-level NPCs in it, they're demonstrably wrong. This is a DM problem, nothing more. Using high-powered novel characters as DMPCs who burst in and solve everything, that's bad DMing.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Eltheron, you are again incorrect, and clearly hold "wrong-headed, dumb and stupid" beliefs in this regard. Thank you for advocating for those who point out these "wrong-headed, dumb and stupid" views in others.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
It is my opinion that the concerns of these players are not baseless. These peoples opinions are just as valid as any other. To state that these opinions are "bottom-line wrong", is incorrect.
I don't care if it's one person or a bunch of people who go around believing or saying something that's wrong. I'll say it again: just because an entire group believes something wrong, it doesn't make them right.
In life, not just gaming, there are plenty of wrong-headed, dumb, stupid beliefs out there that people will cling to furiously and endorse proudly. Anyone can have an opinion, but not all opinions are worthwhile, logical, or valid.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 26 Aug 2011 18:43:34 |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 18:42:21
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I find you have difficulty reading. Perhaps English is not your primary language? (I could utilize a translation service, if you would find that helpful.)
I have not advocated any position. I have simply stated that those views presented in the original post are not baseless.
It comes as no surprise to me that the Scribes of Candlekeep would be opposed to any constructive criticism of the Forgotten Realms.
EDIT: I apologize, but further evidence of your English-language-illiteracy is found in your replies to my first post, in which I clearly state that one of the most compelling aspects of the Realms is its well developed and fascinating characters.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I find it very interesting that you advocate the negative group opinion of the other website, yet the consensus here is against you. Oh well, you're of course entitled to any opinion you wish, whether it's supported or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Eltheron, you are again incorrect, and clearly hold "wrong-headed, dumb and stupid" beliefs in this regard. Thank you for advocating for those who point out these "wrong-headed, dumb and stupid" views in others.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
It is my opinion that the concerns of these players are not baseless. These peoples opinions are just as valid as any other. To state that these opinions are "bottom-line wrong", is incorrect.
I don't care if it's one person or a bunch of people who go around believing or saying something that's wrong. I'll say it again: just because an entire group believes something wrong, it doesn't make them right.
In life, not just gaming, there are plenty of wrong-headed, dumb, stupid beliefs out there that people will cling to furiously and endorse proudly. Anyone can have an opinion, but not all opinions are worthwhile, logical, or valid.
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Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 26 Aug 2011 18:46:45 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 18:47:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I find you have difficulty reading. Perhaps English is not your primary language? (I could utilize a translation service, if you would find that helpful.)
I have not advocated any position. I have simply stated that those views presented in the original post are not baseless.
It comes as no surprise to me that the Scribes of Candlekeep would be opposed to any constructive criticism of the Forgotten Realms.
Let's be completely honest. You are insulting, simply to be insulting. You are cruising for a fight, based on your opinion alone.
Your position, that the opinions offered by some people from that other website have "merit", has been argued here before ad nauseum and demonstrably proven wrong. So you're upset that you're wrong, and you're unwilling to admit it.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 26 Aug 2011 18:51:59 |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 18:55:51
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That is incorrect. My initial post clearly states that I do not believe that the views held by a great many players should be dismissed out of hand. It comes as no surprise, certainly, that the Scribes of Candlekeep would dismiss any view which does not coincide with their own, however, I believe this to be intellectually short-sighted.
You, nor any other participant at Candlekeep, have provided no evidence at any time which has demonstrably disproved the views held by those quoted above. It is facetious, and intellectually dishonest, to claim otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I find you have difficulty reading. Perhaps English is not your primary language? (I could utilize a translation service, if you would find that helpful.)
I have not advocated any position. I have simply stated that those views presented in the original post are not baseless.
It comes as no surprise to me that the Scribes of Candlekeep would be opposed to any constructive criticism of the Forgotten Realms.
Let's be completely honest. You are insulting, simply to be insulting. You are cruising for a fight, based on your opinion alone.
Your position, that the opinions offered by some people from that other website, has been argued here before ad nauseum and demonstrably proven wrong. So you're upset that you're wrong, and you're unwilling to admit it.
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 19:11:09
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| The quotes posted are ridiculous. If these people knew epic level mechanics they'd realize that characters of 30-40th level are hardly more world-shattering than those of 20th level in other worlds. Their abilities aren't god-like. FR gives more depth, it should be hard to gain such power. What's stopping 13th level characters in Eberron to intervene? In FR NPC's are not holding the status quo, they all compete. In Eberron the timeline does not advance, 40th level dragons are doing nothing. 40th level rakshasas are burried. Most worlds have a lot of high level npcs, Mystara, Dark Sun, Birthright etc., only FR has a lot more books. Why aren't solars appearing out of thin air and solving all the pcs problems in Planescape? The Chosen aren't the Justice League, the Chosen are all mad, more or less. And if you look at npc lists the number of high level villains is greater. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 19:20:33
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A 30th level character using the rules presented in the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook can generate a Disintegration sphere with a radius equal to that of an Earth sized sphere. If this isn't world shattering, what is?
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Originally posted by Quale
The quotes posted are ridiculous. If these people knew epic level mechanics they'd realize that characters of 30-40th level are hardly more world-shattering than those of 20th level in other worlds. Their abilities aren't god-like. FR gives more depth, it should be hard to gain such power. What's stopping 13th level characters in Eberron to intervene? In FR NPC's are not holding the status quo, they all compete. In Eberron the timeline does not advance, 40th level dragons are doing nothing. 40th level rakshasas are burried. Most worlds have a lot of high level npcs, Mystara, Dark Sun, Birthright etc., only FR has a lot more books. Why aren't solars appearing out of thin air and solving all the pcs problems in Planescape? The Chosen aren't the Justice League, the Chosen are all mad, more or less. And if you look at npc lists the number of high level villains is greater.
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 19:22:27
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Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
That is incorrect. My initial post clearly states that I do not believe that the views held by a great many players should be dismissed out of hand.
By advocating for the anti-Realms group on that list, those who claim that epic level NPCs make the entire setting "flawed", you are -in fact- on their side.
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It comes as no surprise, certainly, that the Scribes of Candlekeep would dismiss any view which does not coincide with their own, however, I believe this to be intellectually short-sighted.
By throwing around insults and claims of intellectual dishonestly and short-sightedness, and attacking the "Scribes of Candlekeep" as a group, who is it -really- that is being intellectually dishonest and short-sighted here? You brought out the personal insults first. You attacked the Scribes here generally as well. You are cruising for a fight, and attempting now to backpedal.
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You, nor any other participant at Candlekeep, have provided no evidence at any time which has demonstrably disproved the views held by those quoted above. It is facetious, and intellectually dishonest, to claim otherwise.
They, and you (based on your clear defense of them), are the ones making the claim here. In any kind of debate, the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the listener. People with that opinion (that the Realms is flawed for having epic NPCs that always must be explained away) must prove their case, otherwise their opinion is baseless. That's the way debate works: if you make the claim, you have to show that it's true. Gathering people who all believe the same thing, without proof, is not adequate support for a claim.
In any case, this is a topic that has been debated here before, many times. Since you appear unaware of this, here are a few points that directly argue against their claims:
- DMs are the ones who choose which NPCs to bring in to their stories. In this way, they are exactly like authors. Salvatore does not need to explain where Elminster is whenever Drizzt runs into a problem. Similarly, Greenwood does not need to explain why Drizzt doesn't show up to help him and the Chosen. DMs do not need to explain high level NPCs, ever.
- Players might want to go meet Elminster or Drizzt. And that's fine, but it's up to the DM whether or not those NPCs ruin their game by "taking over" for the PCs.
- The Realms is GIGANTIC. Out of millions of people, the likelihood of randomly meeting a character from the novels is miniscule. This is a choice by the DM.
- poorly-handled DMPCs have been an acknowledged problem of D&D in general for decades. Not just for the Forgotten Realms, but all D&D worlds and games. Having any DMPC barge in and do everything for the PCs is a classic DM mistake, and there have been articles written about the problem in various publications. Using Elminster badly is exactly the same problem as using Mordenkainen or Darth Vader badly.
- the belief that the Realms is flawed simply because these characters exist is just that: a belief, and nothing more. A group with a mistaken belief is no different than a group with a mistaken belief, except that by identifying with such a group leads to feelings of shared "rightness" in their crusade.
- finally, MANY people have said here that they've run games where Elminster and company are simply used for flavor. They've never needed to explain where and why all the epic level NPCs don't automatically show up and take over for the PCs. High level NPCs have their own things to do, their own lives to lead. End of story.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 26 Aug 2011 19:25:49 |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 19:32:22
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| Eltheron, you are incorrect on all fronts save the onus of evidence. You have provided no evidence falsifiable evidence to support your claims, so I will disregard your views on this issue as unsupported. Thank you for your thoughts. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 19:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Eltheron, you are incorrect on all fronts save the onus of evidence. You have provided no evidence falsifiable evidence to support your claims, so I will disregard your views on this issue as unsupported. Thank you for your thoughts.
Eltheron has provided perfectly valid arguments. You, on the other hand, have merely resorted to casual condescension. You are discourteous in the extreme, and have blithely ignored the instances in which this has been noticed.
It was completely unnecessary to so patronisingly ask if Eltheron had difficulties with the English language.
To me, this suggests that you have no actual counter-argument, and must therefore resort to deriding others. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 19:51:57
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My only position is that the views of others on their enjoyment of the setting are valid. Eltheron's position was to deride these folks as "dumb, stupid" etc. Who was discourteous, again?
Again, it is perfectly reasonable to note that high-level, active 'good' NPC's can be problematic.
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Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Eltheron, you are incorrect on all fronts save the onus of evidence. You have provided no evidence falsifiable evidence to support your claims, so I will disregard your views on this issue as unsupported. Thank you for your thoughts.
Eltheron has provided perfectly valid arguments. You, on the other hand, have merely resorted to casual condescension. You are discourteous in the extreme, and have blithely ignored the instances in which this has been noticed.
It was completely unnecessary to so patronisingly ask if Eltheron had difficulties with the English language.
To me, this suggests that you have no actual counter-argument, and must therefore resort to deriding others.
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Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 26 Aug 2011 19:52:43 |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 20:00:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
My only position is that the views of others on their enjoyment of the setting are valid. Eltheron's position was to deride these folks as "dumb, stupid" etc. Who was discourteous, again?
Again, it is perfectly reasonable to note that high-level, active 'good' NPC's can be problematic.
It is not reasonable to be so utterly condescending regarding your claims that Eltheron must be illiterate in English for disagreeing with you. And Eltheron merely said that there are stupid beliefs out there; it was you that turned around and made that personal. You have been patronising, repeatedly.
Were I to wish to make this personal, I would speculate on what might render you apparently unaware of how utterly rude you've been. Not wishing to do so - and not inclined to excuse you on the grounds you might not know, I will simply tell you this: you've been spotted, and no amount of intimate congress with your thesaurus will change this fact. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 20:13:14
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| Lady Shadowflame, you do not not seem familiar with the entire thread. Please review the thread, then post your comments on the topic. (Though it is flattering that you have spent so much time thinking about my candor.) |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 20:18:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Lady Shadowflame, you do not not seem familiar with the entire thread. Please review the thread, then post your comments on the topic. (Though it is flattering that you have spent so much time thinking about my candor.)
That's nice, sweetie. Whatever you want to tell yourself to make you feel better. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Are the Realms flawed?
Topic Locked
