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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2011 :  23:00:29  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello fellow scribes!

So I have been designing a small drow city under the dales, founded within the last century. We're playing post spellplague, pathfinder 3.75? rules. In this version of the Realms, the drow pantheon is alive and I've added a few from Greyhawk such as Zinzerena and Keptolo.

Originally I was just going to have the city governed by The Way of Lolth and her priestesses. Then I figured since the players were going to be followers of the Spider Queen, maybe it would be more interesting if there were groups of rival faiths. This would allow the PC's the chance for plenty of mercenary work, raids and attacks to try to bring the worship of Lolth to prominence. Plus a hodgepodge of warring factions, demonlord cults, and rival faiths seemed more fun.

So when designing the factions, here's the PC's faction: Lolth and Selvetarm (military arm of Lolth's church). I was also thinking of adding Zinzerena (rogues/assassins secret police etc.) or maybe Kiaransalee (handles slave forces, undead troops etc).

This all sounds ok, but then there's the dogma of Lolth to destroy all other faiths. Yet the Faiths and Pantheons says Selvetarm's church barely exists and basically functions as the military arm of Lolth's Church. Kiaransalee is also listed as being an unwilling vassal to Lolth.

So the problem, which is it? Do Lolth's followers destroy all other faiths? Or is that only normal in purist settlements where she is the sole deity such as Menzoberranzan? I imagine priestesses of Lolth would hold all political power and be the true rulers, whereas priests of these other deities would be subordinate to them. The various sourcebooks makes this very confusing to understand.

I'm tempted just to make Lolth the sole faction of the PC's. On the other hand I like the idea of the Dark Seldarine to be a group of squabbling deities all fighting for power under the brutal tyranny of Lolth, like a dark reflection of the good elven gods.

So fellow scribes, how would you handle this? I'd appreciate any input.



Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2011 :  23:14:32  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The answer to your question is definitely YES. As a rule, Lolth does not allow other faiths in her cities- but that does not keep them from cropping up anyway in secret, or even out in the open if she does not have enough power within said city- just look at Sshamath. Her power base there has been largely nullified, allowing many other deities to find followers. You could use that as a starting point, and decide that the city was founded by several different factions all vying for rule over the city.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2011 :  00:49:56  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Menzoberranzan, Guallidurth, Ched Nasad before it was destroyed, and Maerimydra before it was destroyed are good examples of The Way of Lolth like you mention. How would we explain Eryndlyn? In that city, the church of Lolth has the help of Selvetarm's church. With that as an example, maybe it's not far fetched for Lolth to work with Selvetarm and possibly even Kiaransalee against enemy factions (Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur etc) in certain situations.

Where's Ed when we need him, I bet he could enlighten us further on the workings of drow deity politics! hehe
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2011 :  08:23:38  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Selvetarm's Church could have grown since the time of Faiths and Pantheons. If this is a new city I don't see why there couldn't be multiple equally powerful faith groups, and groups that aren't theocratic. Lolth's faithful can only destroy all other faiths if they have the power to do so, and they might just view it as a perfect vision they strive towards but can't achieve, without being destroyed themselves. Other deities tell their followers to do the same and are unsuccessful. For example Cyric told his followers to kill the faithful of other gods, but I'm not aware of many cities that solely venerated Cyric.

Lolth does not need to control the city. Especially if your PC's are her worshipers. Maybe the city is ruled by noble families that each have a different patron deity rather than all worshiping the same deity. I think it would be more interesting if the "servant" deities like Selvetarm were servants only in name, and their faithful sought to have their own deities worship be paramount. Weren't the followers of Selvetarm expelled from Eryndlyn in the Lady Penitent series? (Although all these deities die in that series, you could still use some elements... just not allow mortals to permanently kill Gods and stuff)
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
498 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  03:11:05  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Menzoberranzan, Guallidurth, Ched Nasad before it was destroyed, and Maerimydra before it was destroyed are good examples of The Way of Lolth like you mention. How would we explain Eryndlyn? In that city, the church of Lolth has the help of Selvetarm's church. With that as an example, maybe it's not far fetched for Lolth to work with Selvetarm and possibly even Kiaransalee against enemy factions (Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur etc) in certain situations.

Where's Ed when we need him, I bet he could enlighten us further on the workings of drow deity politics! hehe


Eryndlyn would be a perfect model - the city had three plateaus, each of which was controlled by the followers of a different deity - Lolth, Vhaeraun, and (I believe) Ghanadaur. It was the most interesting drow city (in concept), effectively three separate communities in one city-cavern. Yet another side effect of ganking all the drow deities was the removal of this most interesting of drow communities.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  03:06:54  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I ended up doing something a bit similar. Ghaunadaur's followers have a strong presence in the docks area near the sea. Lolth's are around a small plateau in the northern part of the city and Vhaeraun I placed in the "high class" area of town. Have a good grouping of minor temples to various other demon gods and what not. Pathfinder has some sweet info on drow that I just couldn't resist using.

I should figure a way to put the map online for others to use. It's a hand drawn map, in pencil that I scanned in. I tried to make in it a similar fashion to the city map from Menzoberranzan boxed set. Well, minus the clusters of undetailed buildings that composed most of the old Menzo map. I'm no great artist, but I always loved hand drawn maps. Does candlekeep still take submissions or do people just make deviant art accounts nowadays? If anyone wants a copy I'll try to get you set up.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  19:10:07  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd love to see your map Eilserus. I'm a sucker for hand drawn maps.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2011 :  01:36:14  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sure thing! I put it up on Deviant art. Here's the link to the map: Small Drow City Map
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4702 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2011 :  03:15:58  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Sure thing! I put it up on Deviant art. Here's the link to the map: Small Drow City Map



Hmm, your small far larger then my small. One thing I am not sure about are the items in lower left hand section bridges or ladders?
Looking at expanded view, side walks?

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2011 :  05:52:17  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I think I had a number of about 4,000 floating around as a population. Figured if its a relatively new city most the house armies would be small (20 to 80 soldiers). I haven't detailed out all the noble houses yet, so maybe it'll be higher when all is said and done.

Items in the lower left are the docks on the shores of the lake/sea. :)
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2011 :  07:49:58  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilserus that is a fantastic map, thank you for posting it. How can you say you're not an artist? That is as good a a map as I'd hope to get from a published D&D product.

However, it looks like it would contain a lot more than 4,000 people/drow. Unless the buildings are a lot smaller than it seems. Like on the raised plateau with just three buildings that has nothing on the lower area to the east ...would each of those be a noble compound? I first assumed the circles and small dots were mushrooms...or are they structures?

When you write, or if you have already, stuff about this city you should post it!
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2011 :  09:23:46  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Love the map. I'd put the population number at 8,000, though.

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2011 :  19:50:28  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the feedback all! :) I'll look into increasing the population once I get down to detailing specifics. The city is supposed to be a dark counterpart to Myth Drannor above and I think that city is listed at 10 or 15,000 for pop. Should be interesting, the goal of the campaign is to reclaim the Twisted Tower, destroy Myth Drannor and cause as much mayhem and trouble as we can. Then we figured we'd turn around and play the good guys and try to fix whatever damage had been done in the evil campaign. I can't wait to start detailing out dwarven mines and cities for the Tethyamar link between the two campaigns. Love me all things dwarven.

@MrHedgehog

Yep, the three structures on that plateau are stalagmite structures. I put a mix of walled compounds and ones that haven't erected a wall yet on the map, figuring some are new or small houses. The small circles and dots are indeed mushroom fields. The grand bazaar on the southern reaches of the city has a caravan and slave auction area (fenced portion) and the vendor stalls and what not are inside hollowed out mushrooms that have been petrified.

@Zireael

That's not a bad number come to think of it. Up'in the population does keep me from having to go back and do a million modifications. ;)
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2011 :  15:04:51  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great map!
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MisterX
Learned Scribe

Germany
118 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2011 :  21:19:32  Show Profile Send MisterX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm running an Underdark Campaign right now. With your permission I might use that map to detail a city? It's pretty cool in layout and style and I'm sure my players will love it as well!

I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
---
When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2011 :  21:57:03  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sure. anyone is free to use it as long as they're not trying to sell it. happy gaming. :)
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  01:15:37  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed. I would like to borrow it for me own drow-based lands. If that's okay.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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