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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 04:23:02
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I'm reading Elminster's Ecologies Appendix I on the Battle of Bones. The leader of the great goblinoid armies in that battle was known as Izac Uthor.
Problem is, they never state what he was. Whether he was a goblin, hobgoblin, or even bugbear? Anyone know for sure what he is? I assume some great goblin warlord of the Goblin Marches?
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 15:33:15
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| I don't think it's ever been stated, at least not in any sourcebook I've seen. Probably a good question for Ask Ed. In my Realms, I've hinted to my players that he had outer-plane connections. I was going to say he was a Barghest, but they stopped investigating as soon as the words "outer-planer" were mentioned. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 16:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
I don't think it's ever been stated, at least not in any sourcebook I've seen. Probably a good question for Ask Ed. In my Realms, I've hinted to my players that he had outer-plane connections. I was going to say he was a Barghest, but they stopped investigating as soon as the words "outer-planer" were mentioned.
This is a curious idea that never occurred to me. I don't know, the way they describe Izac Uthor seems so "mortal" to me... Maybe because he was considered a "second-rate" commander, and because he knew how to exploit mortal feelings and insecurities that lower-planar crestures, in my way of seeing it, would not care about or even have the sensibility to notice. But maybe barghests could, indeed, be this sophisticated.
But another thing caught my attention was that your PCs were investigating it. Were they in an adventure through time, was the adventure actually set in the past, or was it simply an investigation of past occurrences? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 17:20:13
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| Simply an investigation of past occurances. They were in the area of the Battle and had a vague idea of looking for the sites of the major battles and tracing the paths of some of the known leaders. One of the characters had extensive knowledge of the era due to her character build (2E Proficiencies). She asked the right questions, and I rolled for her knowledge and the dice came up as probably correct information. I took a break to review the Elminster's Ecologies Appendix that Razz mentioned in his original question, and came up blank on complete answers, but because of exactly the information you mention, I came away with the personal idea that he could have been a Barghest. So, I went with it. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 18:36:08
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Nice. In fact, he is the leader of a orc-goblin army, so he could also be an orc. But there are many references in this book to Izac Uthor uniting the goblins, so I think that's why Razz went through the goblin/ hobgoblin/ bugbear hypothesis. I'm very partial into hobgoblins as war commanders, even knowing that some goblins follow this path. Bugbears usually trust in stealth and treason, and I don't remember reading about great bugbear leaders. I don't know very much about norkers, however it seems they are disorganized, even if they are warmongers.
I just read the barghest entry, an the only thing I think makes your idea unlikely is the statement, at the compendium, that goblins "readily recognize and worship barghests". It seems there are no registers of the goblins venerating Izac Uthor. However, maybe they only worship full-fledged barghests, and Uthor was (back then) a whelp, since it was in the Material Plane. And being a lower planar creature, it could be still alive as an adult barghest, in Gehenna. It's a very nice idea, indeed...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 18 Nov 2011 18:41:45 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 13:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Nice. In fact, he is the leader of a orc-goblin army, so he could also be an orc. But there are many references in this book to Izac Uthor uniting the goblins, so I think that's why Razz went through the goblin/ hobgoblin/ bugbear hypothesis. I'm very partial into hobgoblins as war commanders, even knowing that some goblins follow this path. Bugbears usually trust in stealth and treason, and I don't remember reading about great bugbear leaders. I don't know very much about norkers, however it seems they are disorganized, even if they are warmongers.
I just read the barghest entry, an the only thing I think makes your idea unlikely is the statement, at the compendium, that goblins "readily recognize and worship barghests". It seems there are no registers of the goblins venerating Izac Uthor. However, maybe they only worship full-fledged barghests, and Uthor was (back then) a whelp, since it was in the Material Plane. And being a lower planar creature, it could be still alive as an adult barghest, in Gehenna. It's a very nice idea, indeed...
Interesting, he could be a barghest. But sometimes I don't want to always rule the rather cliche "this great leader was great because it was a literally secret/not-so-secret out-of-this-world type of being" I constantly see in Realmslore when it comes to monstrous leaders. Nothing wrong with a 15th+ level goblin king sometimes LOL |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12247 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 18:41:41
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| He was actually a gnome using illusions to cover his identity. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 12:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Nothing wrong with a 15th+ level goblin king sometimes LOL
Actually, a 15th level goblin would be way more dangerous than a standard barghest, I think. But yes, even if I think the idea of a barghest didn't occurred me and was a good one, I prefer to keep, in my campaign, "normal" villains important. I have all the undead, outer planar and dragons for all the campaign already set. For the day-to-day campaign, I force myself to seek creative ways of using more mundane enemies, like human NPCs and bandits, animals, and goblinoids. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 13:48:24
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For me, clearly,
he was a hobgoblin ;)
Just for the todays racial descriptions the hobgoblins are the only goblinod race to be able to structure and organize such a force - eventually the goblins of the past were different, but for me it is clear he was a hobgoblin.
If you rplayers want to investigate where he came from - simply lead them to the Melial, which are the last existing direct descendants of this realm.
*Doh* this helps ur players, but not you directly. Although you could beam in and ask em directly, for they for sure know ;) |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 15:03:45
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Which has me concerned about the goblinoid relationships. Do goblins automatically defer to hobgoblins? Would a hobgoblin ever defer to a goblin? What about bugbears, the top of the chain?
They all have separate deities, too, despite being all the same subtype of race, Goblinoid. Makes me wish they were covered more in an Ecology article or race book of some sort. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 15:31:50
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well, Razz,
IMHO it is as follows:
- goblins defer to literally ANYBODY who shows strength or otherwise superiosity.
- Hobgoblins do not defer, but are willing to follow strong leaders, I think if pressed too much they either leave or revolt unless these are no options.
- Bugbears will also not defer for me, they follow strength as hobgoblins, and their natural greed makes them easyly bribed by free food and regular payment
I think hobgoblins are the most dofficult to rule. In my games i have put it, that the Hobgoblins follow the one who leads through example AND right. A good leader will have very loyal troops in Hobgoblins, a stupid one may end up with the strongest hobgbolin either challeninging for his place or simply kill him.
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Battle of Bones --- Izac Uthor was a what...?
