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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 18:08:03
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Hello again scribes!
So Lolth has supposedly assumed Moander's portfolio after the Time of Troubles according to Demihuman Deities and Faiths and Avatars. I haven't found a 3rd edition reference to this, so I'm not sure what the official stance if this is still happening. I was thinking of having the PC's assist the cult in freeing Moander's essence that is trapped in the Darkwatch. Unknown to PC's or cultists, Lolth wants this done so she can consume Moander's remaining divine essence.
Faiths and Avatars references a cult backed by Lolth would most likely start seeing drow emissaries. Why would Lolth want to link the Spider Queen's faith with Moander and how? What role would these dark elf emissaries take, just simple trade agreements? A base to launch surface attacks? I'm curious as to what ideas everyone has and how you think this would play out. :)
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 18:24:25
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| I'm a little confused. I thought Finder Wyvernspur destroyed Moander and absorbed his divinity circa 1358DR? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 19:16:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm a little confused. I thought Finder Wyvernspur destroyed Moander and absorbed his divinity circa 1358DR?
Ah, Finder did indeed absorb Moander's divine power, but did not adopt his followers, and adopted a different portfolio. Lolth took the decision to start granting Moander's followers (who were not aware of or did not believe in Moander's demise) their spells and powers. As to whether than Finder's divine power results from all Moander, or of a mixture of Moander and the Finder's Stone. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 19:19:08
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| Lolth answers prayers to Moander, but Finder absorbed his portfolios (which he respun to be more in-line with his own alignment and thinking) and his power. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 20:03:11
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I understand now. The only oddity which strikes me is that Lolth is a jealously (violently) egocentric goddess, I'm surprised she'd grant powers to followers in another deity's name.
[Edit]
I should also point out that I haven't read anything much about drow since Underdark and Menzoberranzan and tons of darling Drizzt oversaturated so much 2E/3E lore that I scrabbled in disgust to the surface world and haven't looked back since. Odd that I keep buying RAS novels even though I haven't bothered to read one for over a decade. Still, did I not hear that Lolth is dead? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Jan 2012 20:13:41 |
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Xevo
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 21:01:24
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Lolth may be jealous, but the power she gains from those followers, as well as the chaos they spread is more than enough for Lolth to entice the goddess.
Yes Lolth died as an intermediate power and was reborn as a greater power. |
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
-Terry Pratchett |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 21:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I understand now. The only oddity which strikes me is that Lolth is a jealously (violently) egocentric goddess, I'm surprised she'd grant powers to followers in another deity's name.
[Edit]
Lolth is rather self-centered, but answering the prayers sent to another deity means she's getting those followers, and the boost from their worship. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 00:22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
So Lolth has supposedly assumed Moander's portfolio after the Time of Troubles according to Demihuman Deities and Faiths and Avatars. I haven't found a 3rd edition reference to this, so I'm not sure what the official stance if this is still happening.
Actually, 3e's Powers of Faerūn follows up a little on what Moander has been doing since those earlier references in 2e. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 07:23:02
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Ghaunadaur seems more similar to Moander. It seems like they [Lolth and Ghau.] should fight over his cultists, and Ghaunadaur should win. It could be part of why he becomes a Greater God.
(Is Ghaunadaur a he or an it?) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 07:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Ghaunadaur seems more similar to Moander. It seems like they [Lolth and Ghau.] should fight over his cultists, and Ghaunadaur should win. It could be part of why he becomes a Greater God.
I think Ghaunadaur's increase in divine status comes from the events we learned in Demihuman Deities:-
"Although Ghaunadaur is a distinct entity unrelated to the tanar'ri lord Juiblex, the Faceless Lord, or the otherwise unnamed Elder Elemental God neither of the latter two powers is active in the Realms, and Ghaunadaur has assumed both of their aspects within the crystal sphere of Realmspace."
quote:
(Is Ghaunadaur a he or an it?)
Ed Greenwood describes Ghaunadaur as "It" in FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 09:24:49
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But another alias would help, too, wouldn't it?
Those four entities (Ghau., Jubilex, Moander, and The Elder Elemenetal god) all seem similar enough to be aspect of one divine being. However, Lolth does not resemble in any way Moander in my opinion. If any deity could grant spells to any cultists to absorb their worship even if the Gods are not similar then Ghaunadaur could be granting spells to worshipers of a Lawful Good aspect, but in my mind that doesn't make sense.
I don't think this is a question with a concrete answer, however, just my philosophical opinion. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
But another alias would help, too, wouldn't it?
Those four entities (Ghau., Jubilex, Moander, and The Elder Elemenetal god) all seem similar enough to be aspect of one divine being. However, Lolth does not resemble in any way Moander in my opinion. If any deity could grant spells to any cultists to absorb their worship even if the Gods are not similar then Ghaunadaur could be granting spells to worshipers of a Lawful Good aspect, but in my mind that doesn't make sense.
I don't think this is a question with a concrete answer, however, just my philosophical opinion.
But worshippers shape their deity, too, so assuming an LG aspect could start shifting her over to LG.
I'd assume that there's some sort of limitation, perhaps the one-step alignment rule, that applies to assuming fallen identities. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
But another alias would help, too, wouldn't it?
Those four entities (Ghau., Jubilex, Moander, and The Elder Elemenetal god) all seem similar enough to be aspect of one divine being.
You should read the claim about the Elder Elemental God in light of the fact that much of Ghaunadaur's writeup is taken directly from descriptions of the EEG, which is itself distinct from Juiblex.
Juiblex is a Demon Lord in the D&D core rules. In the Realms, he had some worshippers in 2e's Thay IIRC. When Demihuman Deities, and the other god books, were being worked on there was some desire to tidy up some of the gods, thus Juiblex became an aspect of Ghaunadaur in the Realms. Similar things happened to the 2e god of liches in Monster Mythology becoming an aspect of Velsharoon and Sseth garnering many different aspects.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:43:07
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I always had to wonder about there being a god of Liches.
Can you imagine a less likely to be religious group of people?
It reminds me of the Illithids having a pantheon.
I just stared and went, "Wha?" |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 01:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It reminds me of the Illithids having a pantheon.
The Illithid pantheon kind of makes sense, though. Especially if we consider it from the fact that, usually, illithids will only worship deities they feel are "worthy" of their praise... simply because these deities advocate ideals and beliefs similar to what the mind flayers believe in. They may also worship some powers under the perceived possibility of "getting something in return" for their worship.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 03:07:24
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I suppose Waukeenites routinely barter for spells with their own god, perhaps renegotiate their priestly business contracts each time they level up, exchanging their religious services for Waukeen's intangible goods.
Not a lot different from the "getting something in return" worship of the illithids. Ilsensine is said to be a sort of multiplanar supercerebrum, formed from the connected intellects of illithid elder brain pools. |
[/Ayrik] |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 06:41:07
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| With the one step alignment rule we couldn't have Lawful Good priests of Selune, but I don't see a reason why Selune would reject a Lawful priest. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 22:02:46
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
With the one step alignment rule we couldn't have Lawful Good priests of Selune, but I don't see a reason why Selune would reject a Lawful priest.
Probably one of the biggest deviations from the "one step" rule are the Sunite palidans. I can't imagine a diety less likely to support a group of LG religous warriors than Sune.
That being said, I did have a wonderfully played Sunite palidan in my Daggerdale campaign. The woman who played her did a superb job of being a LG daughter of a retired Ilmaterian priest who found herself worshiping a CG goddess of beauty and love. In 35 years of DMing, I don't think I've ever had a more confused soul played at my table. I loved it. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:08:54
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I don't think people in the realms are aware of their alignments.
In 4th edition paladins can be of any alignment now, anyways, and I considered that a house rule before. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 15:04:56
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| Paladins could be of any alignment in 3ed also. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 17:07:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
Paladins could be of any alignment in 3ed also.
Not without variant rules, PH1 paladin had to be LG. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 20:20:39
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It depends on what Selune's ideology is. If her church is based around a strong individuality and unwillingness to buckle under authority then, yes, creating paladins is kind of odd.
Then again, I've always wondered why Paladins weren't generic martial priests. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 22:39:39
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quote:
Originally posted by KilvanNot without variant rules, PH1 paladin had to be LG.
And what did I say? |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 05:27:41
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| Paladins in 4th edition are now generic martial priests >.< I thought the whole divine champion and blackguard prestige classes were unnecessary when they were essentially just paladins with different alignments. |
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thebaron
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 21:00:01
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| considered using Moander's corruption of the moonblade as a method of bring him back, but still only considering it. The intelligence of the blade could slowly corrupt the Starym wielder into doing things to steal power and redirect it to the corpse of Moander.... |
Edited by - thebaron on 10 Oct 2013 21:07:54 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 16:45:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I understand now. The only oddity which strikes me is that Lolth is a jealously (violently) egocentric goddess, I'm surprised she'd grant powers to followers in another deity's name.
Yes. And so off the tracks at that.
But she's also a great schemer, powermonger and quite pragmatic - in that she doesn't have a problem sharing the prize if this means she retains half of it instead of losing all (I mean Sshamath, of course).
I could come up with only one sensible hypothesis: from the very start Lolth's plan was trading Moander's rotten corpse and rotten followers wholesale to Ghanadaur in exchange for some other perks, thus she was merely keeping it all until they have this bargain worked out. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 17:26:55
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
But another alias would help, too, wouldn't it?
Those four entities (Ghau., Jubilex, Moander, and The Elder Elemental god) all seem similar enough to be aspect of one divine being. However, Lolth does not resemble in any way Moander in my opinion. If any deity could grant spells to any cultists to absorb their worship even if the Gods are not similar then Ghaunadaur could be granting spells to worshipers of a Lawful Good aspect, but in my mind that doesn't make sense.
I don't think this is a question with a concrete answer, however, just my philosophical opinion.
I assumed they were all aspects of Tharizdun, but since I came from Greyhawk, of course my leanings will always be to give their gods 'top billing'. 
Lolth also answers prayers to Ibrandul, doesn't she? I think she probably does this for awhile, sends in her 'emissaries', and then slowly converts them over to her worship (which they are doing anyway, whether they realize it or not). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 18:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Lolth also answers prayers to Ibrandul, doesn't she?
No, that's Shar. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 18:58:06
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Ugh.. too many 'dark and ebil' chicks. Can't keep track of everything they are all doing.
Shar with her Shadoweave, and Lolth with her demonweave. I'm surprised Auril doesn't try to get herself a 'Frigiweave'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 21:30:44
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So... Developing for D&D v. 3.5-4 is like herding the copycats?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12081 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 02:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
But another alias would help, too, wouldn't it?
Those four entities (Ghau., Jubilex, Moander, and The Elder Elemenetal god) all seem similar enough to be aspect of one divine being.
You should read the claim about the Elder Elemental God in light of the fact that much of Ghaunadaur's writeup is taken directly from descriptions of the EEG, which is itself distinct from Juiblex.
Juiblex is a Demon Lord in the D&D core rules. In the Realms, he had some worshippers in 2e's Thay IIRC. When Demihuman Deities, and the other god books, were being worked on there was some desire to tidy up some of the gods, thus Juiblex became an aspect of Ghaunadaur in the Realms. Similar things happened to the 2e god of liches in Monster Mythology becoming an aspect of Velsharoon and Sseth garnering many different aspects.
Not quite the same. Mellifleur from his very first mention was involved with the realms, since it stated that he had stolen his power (by fortuitous accident) from Bane. The fact that Velsharoon had Mellifleur as an alias, I always took to mean that something had probably happened to old Mellifleur during the ToT and Velsharoon used that to attain his divinity. That's why my belief is that Velsharoon's ritual involved Mellifleur's phylactery (in which Mel had been entrapped during the ToT) and becoming a lich. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lolth and Moander
