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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 12:35:01
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Hi everyone. Wow it has been quite a while since I have graced the halls of Candlekeep and this is a little something that has been on my mind for quite a while. My favourite creature is of course the Lich. Something about the quest for immortality whatever the cost, to exist forever, unless adventurers come calling, somewhat pulls at my mortality.
After rereading Gauntlgrym, especially segments about Arklem Greeth or rather his phylactery, I was wondering why hasn't he come back, by all necromantic means, in one to ten days he would surely have regrown a new body to inhabit, so what gives?! (Also the whole Robillard using the Shocking Grasp spell to kill him was a bit bogus)
P.S This scroll can be used to ask anything about liches, their types, ecology etc. Knowing as they say is half the transformation into one, to paraphrase from my point of view. Enjoy
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Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 18:55:04
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Either he's utterly destroyed or still recuperating from 'spiritual' wounds, not unlike how Madryoch, an Imaskari archwizard, wandered the Plane of Shadow as a weak ghost till he regained enough power to inhabit and control a mortal body. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 19:13:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
After rereading Gauntlgrym, especially segments about Arklem Greeth or rather his phylactery, I was wondering why hasn't he come back, by all necromantic means, in one to ten days he would surely have regrown a new body to inhabit, so what gives?!
That's a good question which hasn't been fully answered, yet.
Greeth got whacked in the spring of 1377 DR in The Pirate King. He shoulda been up and at 'em again by that summer, right?
He was also losing his mind. In the late 1360s DR, he grew so obsessed and preoccupied with finally becoming a lich that his chief assistant, Queltar Thaeloon, was thought to have become the new Archmage Arcane in his stead. Greeth didn't even realize that a plot was forming to assassinate him, he was so fixated.
A few years later, during TPK, he had grown bored of being the leader of the city of Luskan; all the intrigue and backfighting just didn't interest him anymore. Apparently, he was drifting off into high-minded, abstract, intellectual thought, and losing grip of all mundane pursuits.
His fight with Robillard gave something more immediate in the here-and-now to focus on. But apparently he didn't focus quite enough!
Maybe he realized the folly of his actions from inside the confines of his phylactery. Maybe he was content to just sit in there, pondering stuff, and not really doing anything.
Can a lich be depressed? We already know they can be manic!
When the Spellplague rolled around, it was all over for the dude. He went completely nuts--him, and his girlfriend.
In Gauntlgrym, after the explosion in 1452 DR, Jarlaxle acquired Greeth's phylactery gem, and brought it to Gromph for further study on a couple of different occasions. It's virtually certain that Jar has protective wards in place to guard himself against retaliation from the crazy lich. Jarlaxle knows best.
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(Also the whole Robillard using the Shocking Grasp spell to kill him was a bit bogus)
I'm not well-read on the magic of D&D and the Realms, so I can't say how effective any given spell should be in a given context.
But the scene read as fun and exciting, and satisfying, to me. Ding, dong, Greeth is dead.
Well, Greeth is undead, but...you know. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 20:55:13
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Do you think when Jarlaxle was little, they called him "Jar-jar"? 
In the WotSQ series, Gromph beat that other lich, and Gromph knew the lich would reform rather quickly and didn't have much time to prepare.
So liches apparently 'come back' pretty damn fast in some instances... which is the key here. Obviously (and canonically) each liches transformation is individual and unique to that creature (as is the lich itself), which means there are innumerable variables - type of phylactory, power-level of the lich, method of destruction, completeness of destruction, distance from phylactory, etc, etc - that all come into play when a lich needs to reform, along with the differences built-into whatever methods were employed to achieve lichdom.
So, in other words, drow-liches may have discovered a 'quick & dirty' one-hour recuperative lich-ritual, but others could be a year, a decade, a century... I would surmise that the more research and time that are put into becoming a lich, the more efficient your reforming becomes. I'd also hazard to guess the item used for a phylactory plays a big part (for instance, if you used an artifact, you could probably fully regenerate in just a few rounds).
I'm not sure if I came up with that myself (its really just logic), or its something I am recalling from the Van Ritchen's Guide (which I no longer own, so I can't check how it was handled there, in the quintessential source). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Apr 2012 20:58:55 |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 21:33:27
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quote:
Do you think when Jarlaxle was little, they called him "Jar-jar"
Not twice |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 21:48:26
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As I recall, if all the phyllacteries are utterly destroyed, as the case of Sammaster's, there's no way the lich can rise again. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 22:25:30
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A wish or miracle should be able to recreate a destroyed phylactory. However, I'm not sure what would happen to the spirit of the Lich once it has reached its 'final reward'.
In other words, if a phylactory is destroyed, then the lich's spirit should go to wherever it would have gone if the living mage had not become a lich, and depending on where that was, may not be able to return, even if the phylactory is somehow repaired.
Also, I think the lich automatically reforms solid (in the lich form), and there is no 'mental state' the creature is in before it reforms, and therefor could not possibly delay its own return.
UNLESS this was a condition set-up as part of the original lich-creating ritual. I would also assume that the spellplague could have caused any manner of variable effects (once again, making it the perfect universal McGuffin), which means a destroyed phylactoiry laying on the floor of a dungeon may become 'energized' and the lich brought back (perhaps in some new, mutated form).
Arklem Greeth may have been one of those under-powered liches (his creation-ritual, anyway) that took a full decade to return, and the spellplague may have warped the magic of that as well (which means the character can be re-invented as anything else, at any time in the future).
I got this cool picture in my mind of him reforming after eight years (eight being tied to chaos... or whatever..), and just as he is reforming, the cerulean wave rolls over him and he screams, "NOOoooooooo !!!" Then you just do whatever you want with him. 
Question: Could the Silver Surfer have ridden the cerulean Wave? 
Or more importantly, since he doesn't have toes, does he only "hang two"? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Apr 2012 04:37:59 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 00:26:27
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Each lich has to discover the process himself so although liches and their phylacteries are fairly uniform they are also each unique. There's always a few who fall outside the norm, some attain lichdom which is flawed or superior or involves tradeoffs.
Besides, Arklem Greeth may have indeed "come back", or he might do so at some future time - just not within the scope of the story told within the Gauntlgrym novel. It could be explained as simply as a phylactery which teleports itself to a safe location. Or Arklem might be the kind of lich which requires possession of a nearby living or dead body to reform, the heroes could've left before Arklem was ready or they could have successfully resisted possession attempts without even knowing it.
Perhaps Arklem was killed by a lowly shocking grasp because he was an inferior lich, nerfing the opposition for "balanced encounters" is a popular DM tool these days. But perhaps Arklem faked his own death and escaped, opportunistically using that harmless attack as a distracting pretense - Robillard and his allies might have only activated a contingency which made Arklem invisible while his programmed illusion painted a convincing death scene. For all we know, Arklem could have (and would have) easily zorched the interloping heroes, but by faking his own death and dispensing of some surplus treasure he purchased a few centuries of uninterrupted privacy before more bands of annoying heroes trespass and assault him. (It's what I would do.)
Besides, we already know that FR novels frequently hinge around fine details which aren't required to follow the D&D game rules. Quite the opposite: new game rules are usually invented to explain and formalize how things happen in the novels so that legions of PCs can emulate their heroes. (I would prefer to emulate the villains, but oh well.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Apr 2012 01:20:10 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 07:25:13
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I just find it weird. A lich can either regenerate or possess a corpse and be back in 1d10 days right? So why didn't Greeth prepare a contingency, I mean being the Archmage Arcane of a city like Luskan as well as being a wizard, even I would be cautious and pragmatic when it came to my entire existence being hidden in my bedroom. Could he not have kept it elsewhere far away in a deep hole?
Plus there are many liches who are around and have not made a returned yet from their apparent "deaths". Like Syrzan the alhoon from Dissolution. I think Mr.Byers has a fascination with liches too, I mean Sammaster, Szass Tam, Alasklerbanbastos... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 09:34:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I think Mr.Byers has a fascination with liches too, I mean Sammaster, Szass Tam, Alasklerbanbastos...
I tend to agree. A Larloch novel or trilogy by him would be great! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 09:50:14
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| I actually prefer to have nothing written about Larloch. He's perfect exactly as he is, I don't want him to be domesticated and turned into yet another facetiously overpowered Chosen do-gooder. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 10:10:24
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| Larloch is mystery and that is what makes him so mysterious. What about other liches though? I hope RLB brings back the Great Bone Wyrm, maybe as a uneasy ally to Thay who has designs on Chessenta... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 10:12:12
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How many used to say they didn't want any Szass Tam-centric novel but were surprised and turned out happy upon reading The Haunted Lands? Granted they're not one and the same... But they're both liches and share an almost equal reputation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 10:24:20
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| However Szass Tam is more grounded and is not as unfathomable or dangerous than Larloch. Having 60 liches, 3 of them being demiliches, that is a marker for RUN! |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 10:29:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A wish or miracle should be able to recreate a destroyed phylactory. However, I'm not sure what would happen to the spirit of the Lich once it has reached its 'final reward'.
In other words, if a phylactory is destroyed, then the lich's spirit should go to wherever it would have gone if the living mage had not become a lich, and depending on where that was, may not be able to return, even if the phylactory is somehow repaired.
No particular reason why a resurrection spell working on any destroyed undead won't do the job... but are there any? IIRC, Revival reverts undead and just about anything to at least 10 years to live, but, well, that's High Magic and that's a present undead.
But there were spells that kill without resurrection short of wish. Which BTW does not mean no petitioner appears on the appropriate outer plane - there's more differences than just a living body: for one, normally petitioner doesn't remember life and revived doesn't remember afterlife. So why not.
Though if we'll look into implications, there's an uniform way to handle this (see below).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Is there anything that says a Lich cannot delay his/her own rebirth? Presumably, as long as their phylactery is safe and sound, they'd be able to, just hanging out in it for however long they like.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, I think the lich automatically reforms solid (in the lich form), and there is no 'mental state' the creature is in before it reforms, and therefor could not possibly delay its own return.
There were mentions. In fact, one dracolich ("Cult of the Dragon") even prefers to hang inside its phylactery. How sensory deprivation this complete may affects sanity is obviously very case-by-case matter.
But the point is, the process is not too different from Magic Jar. So why not to treat it as the same as far as not stated otherwise?
I.e. basic version would allow to think and feel lifeforces around, but those who got separate divination/telepathy capabilities (useable without having body to read books and juggle eyes of newt - spells made permanent, psionic powers, phylactery itself enchanted as a crystal ball, and so on) are free to employ them.
And if the phylactery is destroyed with the lich inside, it's the same as having one's Magic Jar destroyed. With the lich outside, probably same as disrupted undead, since the animating magic is tied to the phylactery.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Perhaps Arklem was killed by a lowly shocking grasp because he was an inferior lich, nerfing the opposition for "balanced encounters" is a popular DM tool these days. But perhaps Arklem faked his own death and escaped, opportunistically using that harmless attack as a distracting pretense - Robillard and his allies might have only activated a contingency which made Arklem invisible while his programmed illusion painted a convincing death scene.
Or his body was already damaged by something else.
Or he simply withdrew into his phylactery and let an opponent successfully and "for real" fry dead remnants (now quite mundane) left behind and enjoy the smell. Why not? Again, basically it's a tricked-out Magic Jar, and as you noted, there are always variations. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 12:01:07
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| Regarding Shocking Grasp finishing of a lich, it's not that far fetched. An Empowered Shocking Grasp is a highly damaging spell from mid level play to well into high levels. Even though empowering it does an average of 24 electricity damage, its damage is capped at a whopping 45. That's enough to finish off a low-level or highly damaged lich in one blow. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 12:23:42
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| Well, there is the small detail about liches being immune to electricity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 13:39:46
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| What about the whole 1d10 days thing. Does that not count for something, i mean Greeth would have been back in a few days. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 14:00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Well, there is the small detail about liches being immune to electricity.
I was about to say that |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 14:02:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
What about the whole 1d10 days thing. Does that not count for something, i mean Greeth would have been back in a few days.
Not sure how it happened, but it did show that he somehow became imprisoned in Jarlaxle's little old Scull gem.
A question I always wondered was since Gromph's soul eating Axe sucked up Dyrr's soul destroying his phylactery, but now contained the soul, was if Gromph could release the soul into a phylactery |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 17:19:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, I think the lich automatically reforms solid (in the lich form), and there is no 'mental state' the creature is in before it reforms, and therefor could not possibly delay its own return.
-It's spirit/soul/sentience is transferred from the body to the phylactery upon the destruction of the first body. This seems to be automatic. The second body regenerates/recreates/whatever, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support that the transfer from the phylactery to the second body is also automatic. It seems more purposeful, that the spirit/soul/sentience decides to transfer into the new body.
-Is it in the Forgotten Realms (or D&D in general) that there a type of Lich-like Undead that has the ability to transfer it's essence into multiple bodies and "jump around", so to speak? Similar to a Baelnorn being able to project itself, but more literal. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Apr 2012 17:21:49 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 00:19:19
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In The Pirate King, we're told that Greeth's bed chamber is located beneath Illusk, and surrounded by all sorts of ravenous undead.
Apparently he thought this was sufficient safeguard for his phylactery.
It wasn't, for all sorts of fellows wandered in to take a gander at it. And then eventually, Jarlaxle stone-cold ganked it!
It should also be noted that Greeth converted Valindra into a lich without her consent, because he wanted to have her remain with him in undeath. Arabeth kills her, and later Greeth takes Valindra's corpse into his chambers, and when she revives, he tells her that she is now a lich. Understandably, she freaks. But after awhile, she seems more or less OK with it.
RAS does acknowledge that few people ever go into lichdom unwillingly.
Nevertheless, this unwilling conversion may be the real source of Valindra's particular brand of insanity, rather than the Spellplague. Her lichdom might not have fully "taken", so to speak.
During the battle in The Pirate King, it actually says that all manner of evocations flew out between the two wizards--not just electricity. On Robillard's side, it lists fire, ice, magical energy of different colors and shapes, solid and acidic darts, and an Astral Planar projection. When they both got their death grips on one another, it does say that Robillard launched electrical discharges into the lich, but it also says that "Spell after spell leaped from Robillard's fingers into the lich", and it is these unnamed spells that exhausted the lich's wards and wore down his "life-force". Yes, it says that Robillard continued his electrical barrage on the lich, but it then turns right around and says that he unleashed what seemed like a dozen, dozen spells.
So it sounds like to me, in his supreme anger, Robillard just emptied his spellbook on the dude, even though a lot of the spells (namely electricity and cold) may have been wasted. Hey, Robie was pissed off, and his ship was listing, so maybe he wasn't thinking straight!
Or were those cold and electric spells wasted, after all? Lorebooks tell us that liches are immune against cold and electric attacks, but what exactly does that mean: "immune against attack"? Perhaps it simply means that those forms of attack do not do immediate, acute damage on the lich's flesh. But maybe there can still be indirect effects. If a lightning bolt smacks a lich in the face point-blank, the lich isn't just gonna remain standing there like you were blowing on him, is he? He's gonna be smacked with the force of the blast, still, right (even though the shocking and burning effects are nullified)?
And maybe the accumulation of lots of strikes eventually wore down Greeth's wards, thereby opening the door to other spells getting through to harm the lich's corporeal body.
FWIW, when the battle is done, Robillard is not the only one to notice that Greeth is dead, as opposed to undead. Valindra sensed it, too. And she sees the eyes of Greeth's phylactery begin to glow again, signalling that his spirit is once again residing there, rather than inside any body.
In Gauntlgrym, when Dahlia picks up Greeth's phylactery for the first time, his spirit shrieks at her to release him and kill Robillard. His thoughts were actually a jumbled mess. The gem begins to pull at her spirit, as well, as if trying to drag her inside. Over the next several months, Dahlia communes with Greeth many more times, collecting intel on the Hosttower, the roots of power, and Gauntlgrym.
Later, Barrabus the Gray also drops in on Greeth's phylactery, inquiring about the newly-arrived Thayans in the area.
After the volcanic eruption, Jarlaxle steals Greeth's phylactery and brings it to Gromph for interrogation. On a follow-up visit, Jarlaxle says that he wants Gromph to figure out how to extract Greeth's spirit and download it into another phylactery. But Gromph says that he does not know how to prepare one, and he does not want the powerful, insane lich roaming free. (At this point, we get an indirect reference to Gromph's battle with the Lichdrow of Dyrr from "WOTSQ".) Gromph says that the phylactery is keeping the lich's spirit contained, and it's the only thing that will do so.
A Gauntlgrym dwarf ghost also gets trapped within the phylactery, but Gromph is not sure whether it was the phylactery itself that did this, or Greeth's spirit within. Jar fears that Greeth may be managing to have influence outside the gem again, but Gromph assures him that the lich is fully contained.
So that must mean that the phylactery itself is enchanted to draw upon ambient souls in the vicinity, right?
In Neverwinter, Valindra says that she had wanted to extract Greeth's spirit from his phylactery and transplant it into another body. Specifically, she lies and tells Szass Tam that she had really planned on using the body of the pit fiend seen in Gauntlgrym. This never happened, though, as Jarlaxle had already stolen Greeth's skull-gem phylactery from Valindra's lair shortly after the explosion.
And Valindra learned that the vampire Dork'cry Dor'crae's spirit had been trapped within her own phylactery. When she initially stumbled across his spirit within, he evaded her, but eventually she was able to summon forth his spirit from the gem. She learned that he had seen his impending final destination, and he did not want to go there. So she let him remain in ghostly form on the Material Plane, to be a scout. She also says that she knows he can't remain in this ghostly form for long, so she offers to let him possess another's body.
Because she had inadvertently discovered how to bind Dor'crae's spirit to her own phylactery, Valindra wondered whether she might also, indeed, be able to call Greeth's spirit forth from his own and into another body.
Greeth is described as being trapped and helpless within his phylactery.
BTW, this notion of seriously retrieving Greeth came to her with the assistance of an aboleth visitor to Neverwinter, so it's possible that there is no reality to it; it could all be just the result of mental manipulation by the aboleth, for its own purposes.
What exactly does it mean, anyway, to say that the lich reappears in 10 days? Does this only refer to the lich's disembodied ghost? If the lich was defeated by whacking its body thoroughly, it's probably not gonna want to come back into that broken vessel again. It really is important to nail down what this "reappearance" actually entails.
It might essentially be the same as with Dor'crae the disembodied vampire looking for a new host body.
And regarding Gromph's soul-stealing axe, consider:
Entreri's lifeforce-stealing vampiric dagger is just one-way.
Herzgo Alegni's (for now) soul-stealing long sword Charon's Claw is just one-way.
But Matron Yvonnel Baenre's dwarf-tooth ring was two-way. She brought forth Gandalug Battlehammer's soul, which actually caused his physical body to re-materialize. I think that it was the Time of Troubles which inadevertently brought Gandalug back the final time, much to the Baenre priestesses' chagrin. 
So it's possible the Spellplague may have similarly inadvertently released a whole lot of souls that had been pent up within phylactery-like items all over the Realms. Ruh oh, Shaggy!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 01:14:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Is it in the Forgotten Realms (or D&D in general) that there a type of Lich-like Undead that has the ability to transfer it's essence into multiple bodies and "jump around", so to speak? Similar to a Baelnorn being able to project itself, but more literal.
The Suel lich from Greyhawk/Oerth setting.
I decided long ago that Tan Chin is a Suel Lich (since he has very similar abilities), and Brian James agreed with that assessment.
This is the logic-path that lead me to conclude (in my own HB lore) that the Suel Empire was actually an Imaskari colony, which eventually won its freedom. Unfortunately, the Suel are a blonde-haired, blue-eyed race (GH's Nazis, in many respects), which doesn't make them seem very much like a semite-like people (which we assume the original Mujhari/Durpari/Imaskari peoples were, from Zakhara). On the other hand, what the 'modern day' folk look like in those regions (The Taan and Golden Waters) may not be the same as the Imaskari nobility, who were mostly annihilated. Most of the commoners crossbred with Mulan, Taangan (Tuigan), Raumvari, etc... perhaps even some Turami, which means they common folk of the empire were mongrels and were probably of swarthy complexion and features.
So, my point is that the true Imaskari may have been 'blonde-haired and blue-eyed' - any lore to contradict that? The deep imaskari are pale, and current peoples in those regions are olive-skinned, but that means very little considering the amount of time that has passed.
The Imaskari and Suel have a lot in common, besides the 'spirit lich' thing - they were both incredibly magical empires who enjoyed creating wondrous devices and enslaving all their 'inferiors' (ie, anyone else). Oerth is also supped to be Earth from a different epoch, so if you go that route, then it makes sense their are connections between the two worlds (not canon connections - we have those as well - I am talking about things like portals and gates).
Back to the lich - another example of a Suel (like) lich in FR is Shoon VII, but that was due to a magical accident (ToT spellplague-like magical chaos). On the other hand, Calishites (supposedly) originated in Zakhara as well... seems there is a running theme for that racial group of 'spirit binding' (genies, etc), placing magical beings inside of objects for safe keeping (Pandorym, the Copper Demon of Troos), and using these magics for 'possession' (be it a suit of armor, an artifact, or another person).
Perhaps Imaskari didn't need deities, because they mastered magics dependent upon soul (Incarnum?) energy already - they were their own gods.
As for the thing about the lich reforming inside the phylactory before reforming outside of it - I hadn't thought about it that way - that the 'life force' (I think corporeal undead are all souless) contains the sentience, and therefor never actually 'stops'. Good call -it is a lot like the Magic Jar. However, as someone else pointed out (in another thread?), the Nar Conjurors had no memory of there time 'bound', which should also be related magic.
That dwarf king that came back and stole Bruennor's crown - he was fully aware of everything that happened outside of the gem(?) he was trapped in. I guess its a case-by-case basis. It could just be Ancient dead - who are very similar to liches, but have some differences as well - do not retain any memory of their 'down time', only when they are activated (disturbed, whatever).
I guess the bottom line is, RAS needs to pick up a monster manual once in awhile, and look at more then the pictures. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2012 01:15:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 01:31:32
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| Och, this is why I don't read Salvatore's books. I like to keep it simple: immune means immune, cannot be harmed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 06:07:45
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| If the whole 1d10 days thing doesn't work, at least for authors who prefer them to possess a corpse and return to unlife, then they should make it like that in-game, that liches can only come back by possesing a corpse. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 06:56:01
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| As I stated in my first post - liches might have a lot in common, but every lich is essentially unique. Red Shirt liches serve as fine generic bad guys in adventures and such. But whenever the lich is a major character developed within a novel there is a surety that it will be far from the common fare. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 07:20:39
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I think many of the discrepencies in Salvatore's writings are a result of changing edition rules rather than pure DM/Writer fiat. Salvatore was brought up on 2nd edition lore and rules for D&D so he tends to default to stories based on that era.
In stuff like Van Richten's Guide to the Lich or Lords of Darkness (2nd ed) a defeated lich needed to posses another creature or risk eternal imprisonment....it was in essence a small counterbalance to their abilities, they couldn't completely cut themselves off from the world (those who did went mad or became demi-liches).
3rd ed unfortunaly did not detail the Lich quite as thoroughly...and used the 1d10 days rule as a streamlined way of bringing the Lich back. Now this is not necessarily bad as the Lich was a very complicated magical entity and to detail all the maintaining rituals, spells, the Lichnee state, psuedo-liches, potion requirements, vary properties of different phylacatary colouration...not to mention stuff like phylacatary destruction rituals or the innumerate unique powers that arise, is all in all a lot to put in a few pages of the Monster Manual.
Personally I like the detailed magical hoops that a Lich must jump through more than 120,000gp, Craft Wondrous Item and 1d10 days. However....it is probably more useful to think of the 3.5 ed Lich as less of a player option than previous editions (an odd reversal) and just the tip of the iceburg for what should well be a very mysterious a complex process. With the prerequistes above being a loose outline of the known capabilities.
So 1d10 days means what you need it to mean. A Dm can happily roll his little decahedron and poof new lich. But for the learned, for those dark necromancers who know the true price of immortality, there is so much more to it.
....but that is the differnce between the cunning and the dead, my friends. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 07 Apr 2012 07:24:29 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 16:26:38
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I am fairly exasperated by Salvatore myself, but that's not exactly his failure.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It should also be noted that Greeth converted Valindra into a lich without her consent, because he wanted to have her remain with him in undeath. Arabeth kills her, and later Greeth takes Valindra's corpse into his chambers, and when she revives, he tells her that she is now a lich. Understandably, she freaks. But after awhile, she seems more or less OK with it.
RAS does acknowledge that few people ever go into lichdom unwillingly.
Ravenloft even got regular rules (in Van Richten's guide) about vassaliches - an option for wizards not cool enough to do it for themselves and thus bowing to a master lich who already knows how to do it right.
Back to FR, in "Counselors and Kings" one wizard (let's not spoil) was "drafted" into lichdom. Also, can't remember where, but there was lich lurking in a magical throne in some ruin, just because it's so handy to possess fools placing their arses on it. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Need to Know: The Lich
